Mobile Lab - is there a reason the science return bonus was nerfed?

[thereaverofdarkness]

It used to give a 50% bonus to experiment transmit value, now it gives under 5%. Its only use now is storing and cleaning experiments for return home; it's useless for transmit missions.

[Anquietas314]

It seems to be affected by the scientists, so perhaps that's what their bonus is for? Seems a bit lame to nerf the existing bonuses just to shoehorn a replacement in, but there you go.

[Red Iron Crown]

It's gotten more useful with the addition of biomes to the planets. Cleaning experiments and storing science is more useful than ever. The bonus was likely needed as part of the initial balance to more biomes and scientist xp.

[Anquietas314]

It's gotten more useful with the addition of biomes to the planets. Cleaning experiments and storing science is more useful than ever. The bonus was likely needed as part of the initial balance to more biomes and scientist xp.

To be honest, even on hard difficulty it's pretty easy to complete the tech tree without even going to any of the new biomes. Right now I'm sitting on 7,600 science and just waiting to upgrade R&D to tier 3; I haven't even sent a science mission beyond Kerbin's SoI. This is mostly without using the "convert money to science" strategy too - in total that only accounts for about 1000 science in my entire save (mostly to boost tech early game)

[Red Iron Crown]

Oh yes, it's still possible to do it without leaving Kerbin's soi, and I expect that to remain so (on normal difficulty anyway) so players who can't do interplanetary can unlock everything. It's repetitive though, it's more fun for me at least to go sciencing elsewhere.

[Anquietas314]

It's repetitive though, it's more fun for me at least to go sciencing elsewhere.

Well, I've landed on Mun twice and Minmus like 5 times... though Minmus was all in the same mission. The rest's come from contracts lol

[Heimdall5008]

In 0.23.5 I completed the science tree with the Kerbin system plus a visit to Duna and Ike I think.

With the new biomes (for the other buildings in 0.24 and the other bodies in 0.9) and the added contracts it still gets easier. You can get "landed at Kerbin" contracts that will give you over a 100 science...

[Red Iron Crown]

Excess science is also a useful source of funds after the tech tree is completed, by using the Patents Licensing strategy.

[thereaverofdarkness]

It'd be nice if there was something to spend all that excess science on. Rather than having the tech tree end after you unlock all the parts, there should be upgrades to existing parts that cost more science.

And I don't see any reason to nerf the transmit bonus. Maybe reduce it a little, but there's not much point in bringing a mobile lab just to be able to transmit goo and science jr. when, for a miniscule fraction of the mass, you could send a ship with everything but those two and collect transmit science at least 75% as fast as with the mobile lab. 5% is way too small, it should be at least 25%.

Excess science is also a useful source of funds after the tech tree is completed, by using the Patents Licensing strategy.

It's not even a significant amount. I can barely feel the funds I get from a 100% science-to-funds strategy.

[Wanderfound]

Oh yes, it's still possible to do it without leaving Kerbin's soi, and I expect that to remain so (on normal difficulty anyway) so players who can't do interplanetary can unlock everything. It's repetitive though, it's more fun for me at least to go sciencing elsewhere.

I'm getting repetition for cash, not science. As with others, I have thousands of science in the bank queued up behind the need to unlock tier 3 R&D. I can easily pop up a satellite or two for √10K/launch, and a spaceplane trip to Minmus can pull in half a million or so once you add up all the contracts done on the way, but I'm still having to grind for building upgrade cash. I've got about thirty satellites up there, and the orbital station / planetary base collection would also be piling up in a major way if I weren't doing them with spaceplanes.

I've been running Fundraising Campaign and Patent Licencing strategies, but they don't draw much cash. We've still got ye olde strategy situation of overpowered Outsourced R&D and underpowered everything else, and the KSC upgrade costs could use some tuning as well.

[Foxster]

Its been a problematic item since introduced. One major issue is that it weighs in at 3.5T, but you can carry 10 juniors and goos for the same mass. So if you are only doing one planet/moon (max 8 biomes) then its better to take a stack of juniors+goos, do the experiments, collect the data, return it to a capsule and then drop the junior+goo.

Its only real small advantage is that it can store multiple science results from the same location, which capsules and Kerbals can't. However, that means dragging it all the way back to Kerbin, which isn't really worth the bother.

[Red Iron Crown]

Its been a problematic item since introduced. One major issue is that it weighs in at 3.5T, but you can carry 10 juniors and goos for the same mass. So if you are only doing one planet/moon (max 8 biomes) then its better to take a stack of juniors+goos, do the experiments, collect the data, return it to a capsule and then drop the junior+goo.

Its only real small advantage is that it can store multiple science results from the same location, which capsules and Kerbals can't. However, that means dragging it all the way back to Kerbin, which isn't really worth the bother.

If you're trying to extract all the science, you need 4 Science Junior/Mystery Goos per biome-zone. There are five zones per biome (High orbit, low orbit, flying high, flying low, surface). So for an 8-biome body one would need 160 science packages, it's more mass efficient to use the lab in a returnable mothership and a reusable lander/orbiter with 4 science packages.

[thereaverofdarkness]

There are five zones per biome (High orbit, low orbit, flying high, flying low, surface).

This only counts for some experiments. Goo and materials study only count for biomes on the surface. For an 8-biome world, you would need 12 copies of each to cover the whole world, taking one copy per location.

[Janos1986]

Contracts drop a ton of science though, messing up the balance of things.

[Red Iron Crown]

This only counts for some experiments. Goo and materials study only count for biomes on the surface. For an 8-biome world, you would need 12 copies of each to cover the whole world, taking one copy per location.

Ah you're right, forgot that the in-flight situations are not biome-specific. Thanks for the correction.

It still makes some sense if you're doing multiple samples per biome, and even more if you're visiting multiple bodies (e.g. a planet and its moon(s), or some sort of tour).

[thereaverofdarkness]

It still makes some sense if you're doing multiple samples per biome, and even more if you're visiting multiple bodies (e.g. a planet and its moon(s), or some sort of tour).

Not much if you're doing a transmit run. You can save a ton of mass by not even bringing the goo and materials study in the first place, much less the mobile lab. You would get a bit more total science per biome with the lab and goo+science jr., but if you're doing a transmit run then you're clearly not trying to maximize your science gain per area anyway, but are instead trying to move from place to place cheaply and easily and quickly to get science from new biomes. When the mobile lab boosted transmit value, it made for an interesting type of mission: a large-scale non-return mission which could gather significantly more science than a small-scale transmit mission, but still a lot less than a large-scale return mission. I felt it was pretty well balanced, but now that style of mission is useless.

[Red Iron Crown]

I would never use the lab for a non-return mission, I always at least try not to strand kerbals. If going the transmit route I just send probes with individual science packages. I can see how it's less useful in the scenario you describe, though.

[Foxster]

Ah you're right, forgot that the in-flight situations are not biome-specific. Thanks for the correction.

It still makes some sense if you're doing multiple samples per biome, and even more if you're visiting multiple bodies (e.g. a planet and its moon(s), or some sort of tour).

Multiple samples with goo+junior per biome seem hardly worth it, it gaining little extra science. Perhaps only worthwhile if being very fussy and extracting max science for the sake of it.

I agree that if you are doing multiple planet/moons then it's worthwhile but the mission becomes that much more bother, with either dragging a lab everywhere or parking it somewhere and revisiting.

Needs another rethink I think. Maybe make junior+goo the same as the other experiments and do something different with the lab, like it providing a constant small stream of science as long as, say, the crew was rotated. Would make there some point in establishing offworld bases.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Foxster

[Laie]

Soil samples and materials bays are valuable enough that returning a second set is actually worthwhile. Goo not so much, and a third of each is bordering on overkill, but I figured that given all the hassles of getting there in the first place I might as well make it worthwhile.

(forum post with data & explanations)

Those things aren't all that much heavier than a lander with many experiments. They're also much more convenient than returning to a lab in orbit after every two biomes. The latter actually is the killer feature as far as I'm concerned: wherever I go, I've got all the equipment with me. A side effect is that I'm becoming quite thorough, returning four or six sets of data from every situation and biome.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I'm loving the discussion guys, definitely keep it up. But just the same, this is the closest I've gotten to an answer to my question:

It seems to be affected by the scientists, so perhaps that's what their bonus is for? Seems a bit lame to nerf the existing bonuses just to shoehorn a replacement in, but there you go.

and I wouldn't call it a satisfactory answer.

I'm hoping to keep up the discussion but also hoping to get a good answer. But if I have to, I'll switch it to [Discussion].

[Uncarian]

-

Edited May 15, 2019 by Uncarian

[thereaverofdarkness]

Yes, I have not been able to confirm any increase at all in science gain from having scientists aboard. Seems they do nothing.

[CalculusWarrior]

I'm loving the discussion guys, definitely keep it up. But just the same, this is the closest I've gotten to an answer to my question:

and I wouldn't call it a satisfactory answer.

I'm hoping to keep up the discussion but also hoping to get a good answer. But if I have to, I'll switch it to [Discussion].

I can back up that statement, you are meant to use Scientists to boost the lab transmission rates, giving them more of a purpose in the game. Hope that answers the question.