Mun landing in career, no target

[Ossha]

Heey fellow Kerbals!

First post on this forum for me

I can orbit kerbin easily and can place probes/satellites in orbit around kerbin. So I thought for the next step I would try to reach te Mun. Already made some attempts and getting closer and closer ,but still not one attempt succeeded.

My first attempt i reached the right attitude 11.4 mil ,but wasnt even close to the Mun ( 90 degrees off to the north/up....) also i was out of fuel.

2nd time I tried i reached the right attitude with one rocket still 100% fuel, I tried to get my angle right. Got in the same orbit as the Mun ,but the Mun was on the other side....

My last try I got on the right attitude, angle and was only 200k km away from the moon when something went horribly wrong I noticed I was almost out of fuel, so it was gonna be a one way trip i thought. at 30k km away from the Mun I tried to lower the speed unfortunately I ran out of fuel at 10k or something. Luckily I still had some parachutes, but stupid me the Mun doesnt have an atmosphere.... Yeah, my Kerbal crashed and died that instant! ;.;

Before more of my Kerbals die, can someone give me some tips at how to make a succesful Munlanding? I'm playing in career mode, so I can't target the Mun and can only use the buttons apoapsis and periapsis . Because of this I find it pretty hard to get in the same orbit as the Mun. Already checked some tutorials but mostly they use more tools on the Navball and have the estimated time they reach the Mun. Any tips are welcome!

This is my spaceship

[sal_vager]

Welcome to the forums Ossha

Here's a few pointers, burn prograde at Mun rise till your Apoapsis is about to the Muns altitude, then burn retrograde at the Muns Periapsis to get a circular orbit.

Then lower your Periapsis to about 10km, at Peri, burn retrograde again to deorbit, and watch your speed as you descend, you really want to be down to below 30m/s by the time you see your shadow.

Slowly descend the rest of the way, land at less than 10m/s and ideally less than 5.

Good luck

[DBT85]

I watched a YouTuber on Hard mode try and do this for about an hour today, so you're not alone! I'd not realised how reliant I was on manoeuvre nodes to do anything and as yet haven't done this myself in the new career mode.

As sal_vager said, get into orbit around Kerbin, and as soon as you see the Mun pop up over the horizon burn prograde, that should help get you there.

My first Mun landing was with a 1 man pod, a 200 tank and a 909 engine with 3 legs, so you're definitely going there with bigger ambitions than I did!

[ghpstage]

As mentioned, burn prograde when you see the Mun appear from behind Kermin to achieve an encounter within about 8 game hours.

The bigger problem is your rocket design...

As it is i'm 99% certain its not even capable of landing on the Mun, let alone returning from it!

Reduce weight by replacing those heavy cockpits with command pods, draining their monopropellant if you haven't already, and then take another look at your staging.

Currently that lower stage has far too much power, and its using its central fuel tank to lift the outer tanks and engines. Move the central engine ignition to the same stage as the decouplers used to drop the radial tanks and you will immediately save a bunch of fuel during ascent.

You can use the same method to save a little fuel in the upper stage, letting the radial tanks drain and drop them as you activate the central one.

AFAIK in stock those nosecones are nothing but dead weight, drop those too!

Remember to throttle back during ascent as your TWR is likely to be very high with those skippers!

The payload is also very large, I would advise reducing it somewhat.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ghpstage

[Whovian]

If you insist on bringing two Kerbals, go ahead, but I'd recommend using a single Mk1 command pod (the black one) as it's lighter and generally better for space purposes than the cockpit-looking ones. You could also try stacking two of those on one another, though it would look horrible.

It looks like you're using Skippers, 909s, and 48-7Ss. Skippers are amazing for everything, and the 909s are good where TWR isn't the limiting factor; the 48-7Ss have only the benefit of being very, very light and have fairly low isp. A Materials Bay and a Mk1 command pod are heavy enough that the 48-7S won't offer much benefit, so I'd recommend a 909 on the final stage. (I'm not 100% sure about this, though.)

You might want to use something like your cockpits and science with a relatively small tank and a 909 underneath them, with 3-4 radially attached larger tanks with 909s. Decouple the outer tanks before activating the center engine; with decent piloting, this should make a nice Munar lander. Put a transfer stage beneath it to get it to the Mun after getting into orbit, and some sort of launch stage (the Skippers you're using, with Asparagus staging, should be enough, or you can activate the outer engines first and then decouple them and activate the inner engine.) The "activate the inner engine first" philosophy is equivalent to onion staging with a bit less thrust; it lets you burn off and decouple the outer tanks so the inner engine doesn't have to haul them around.

While it's a matter of personal preference, I generally use a mod such as Mechjeb, Kerbal Engineer, or VOID for ship design, as you'll get delta-v readouts from them. A Mun landing takes about 5.5 km/s on the launchpad, whereas a Mun landing-and-return takes about 7-8 km/s, with good piloting. (These numbers could be off, and as a suggestion, most people who aren't named Scott Manley would give themselves a bit of extra delta-v in case of imperfect piloting.)

Don't forget power. Either use solar panels or plenty of batteries. Also have a parachute if you're planning a return mission. (It seems like something one wouldn't forget, but believe me, it is.)

Alright, that's the end of the design bit; now for the piloting.

Practice with the Navball controls in test flights; you'll want to get the hang of them first. Turn on stability assist and you should be able to turn whichever way you like without resorting to the Pilot's abilities.

Try to get into an initially equatorial orbit by turning East; this can usually be accomplished by using primarily D to turn. Switch the Navball to "Orbit" mode temporarily and turn towards the prograde if you're not sure which way to turn.

Burn to put your apoapsis on roughly the same orbit as the Mun without raising your periapsis. If you don't have maneuver nodes or patched conics yet, burn just as the moon's showing up on the horizon from your ship's point of view; this should get you a Mun encounter, and then you can get into Mun orbit just fine. If you miss, don't worry; keep time warping until you get an encounter. The mun has a decently large sphere of influence, so the chances of a chance encounter are decent. Make sure to slow down the time warp near apoapsis so that if you do and you end up on a collision course, you have time to react.

During the landing, be fairly reckless high up and start being more cautious lower down (that is, start being more careful to slow down lower down; be really conservative with fuel high up.) Use the Navball's retrograde marker to touch down with next to no horizontal velocity and maybe a recommended 3 m/s of vertical. Try not to tip over.

This paragraph is if you want to do a return mission; if you have no problem stranding Kerbals on Mun, don't read this. During liftoff, you can start your gravity turn immediately as there's no atmosphere; just remember to burn up enough to keep from crashing into any mountains. Burn prograde until you're on an escape trajectory, and then, when you're in Kerbin orbit, bring your periapsis into Kerbin's atmosphere (I'd recommend 20 km.) You should be able to aerobrake without using any more fuel.

Finally, quicksave liberally.

EDIT: Don't forget to somehow get science back from orbit and the surface, as per the contract requirements. If you're not doing a return mission, you can just use an antenna.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Whovian

[WanderingKid]

Here's the Mun landing, no upgrades, I did in career mode for my Let's Play. Hopefully it'll help you:

Keep in mind I had to abuse Jet Engines to get enough dV up into orbit to pull it off before you get upgrades on the Launchpad. I also sent an incredibly simple lander there. One Kerbal, no science except for an antenna. I do however show you the tricks to getting there without any nodes or special pilot tricks.

[Ossha]

Thanks everyone for the extensive answers! Will be tweaking my spaceship first with the tips I got! Will also try to land 1 kerbal instead of 2 kerbals, will be less weight that way.

With this thread open I will try to make another moonlanding tonight or tomorrow! ; D

[ROXunreal]

Wait, you cannot target objects in career mode? Or can you, with upgrades to buildings perhaps? Because how do you do orbital RV then? I just started career recently so just asking (only made it to orbit so far).

[ghpstage]

You don't even start with patched conics to see if you will encounter anything. Upgrading the tracking station is required for patched conics, and both it and mission control for manoeuvre nodes and targeting.

[WanderingKid]

You can target any object you can see for rondevous, but you have to be able to get close on your own if you haven't upgraded Mission Control and Tracking.

The defaults are 2.5k away unless you change a global setting in the start screen, Show Vessel Labels. If you switch that it goes out a LOT further (30k I believe, but don't quote me). It doesn't help for trying to target Minmus or Duna, but it'll definitely help for Kerbal Rescues.

[Ossha]

I completed my Munlanding : D Unfortunately it was a one way trip , because i couldnt land my space ship vertical. Tried it several times ,but probably need to change the design of the landers. The rocket costed 70k ,but earned around 400k this trip (4 missions, plant flag, orbit mun, science mun and science from space). A little more money and i can upgrade my science departement!

Here are the pics of the Munlanding:

[DBT85]

Congratulations Ossha!

I've just restarted my Career so will hopefully attempt the same by the end of the day!

[MartGonzo]

Well Done Ossha, good to see you made it

Wait, you cannot target objects in career mode? Or can you, with upgrades to buildings perhaps? Because how do you do orbital RV then? I just started career recently so just asking (only made it to orbit so far).

Funny you should ask that, Scott Manley uploaded a video earlier today on exactly that subject

[DBT85]

I made it just now. However with no manoeuvre nodes my burns were very bad and Samvan is lest with just 188m/s dV to get home, so he'll be staying there for a while. All that new science too

[EtherDragon]

I remember in 0.24 leaving a lander and Jeb stranded on the Mun with a bunch of science, and not quite enough capability to mount a rescue (of Jeb).

A couple tweaks to the craft and I was able to go and rescue the Science! But not Jeb, he had to wait until the Science! expedition returned and I could get more parts from it to make a capable enough rocket to retrieve him.