[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[FlowerChild]

Well, 2 weeks after the fact, I saw the comments on the ScottManley video of BTSM, and I could not believe what people were saying about a mod made for fun, without financial interest.

How some people could just not let others be different without bad comments.

More power to you for doing your own thing and sticking to your guns on it man. "Rock on"

Edited May 7, 2015 by DuoDex
politeness is a plus

[Yemo]

I have to agree with RoverDude here. Unless you know both nodes are used and are logicly required, they should be false.

I went through all the nodes so far, and every one seems to have a logical reason for requiring the parents, though I might have missed some?

Given the new mobile processing lab ability to generate science itself by just warping forward, I felt that the tech tree should use up some more science as well. Making it harder to skip nodes, thus preventing "speed runs" to particular techs (like the resource extraction and ion propulsion - looking at you, igor_perusco!).

It also gives me some sort of planning stability, if the CTT changes those flags and provides a clearer progression expectation when looking at the tech tree diagram.

I think the problem is that you potentially broke the CTT by switching a few nodes from location. Although it makes perfect sense to put Manned Pods much latter in the tech tree, some mods might actually require that you have early access to manned space craft or make it a whole lot easier. At least SETI has the advantage that is a total conversion, meaning it can actively anticipate these problems and give implement alternative solutions.

I m planning to make all the old SETI-BalanceMod tech tree changes in the new SETI-CommunityTechTree.

Thus repositioning the parts of many other mods. The CTT itself is, like with the old BalanceMod, just the fallback for mods which are not directly supported.

edit: I tried to circumvent this by default as much as possible.

For example the CTT adds the "simpleCommandModules" node for capsules between the Mk1 and the Mk1-2. Since I wanted to introduce the Mk1 where this simpleCommandModules node is in the CTT, there would not have been a differentiation by default.

So I moved the simpleCommandModules node up to the 90 science tier and retitled it (no renaming) and introduced a new earlyCommandModules node where it was before.

Which provides the desired progression even if the inbetween pod only supports CTT and not SETIctt.

Which brings me to something I forgot to mention:

Since I changed the probe progression and the location of many science parts, imho it would make sense to rebalance the science rewards with the SETIctt, instead of the whole SETI-BalanceMod.

So that science gain and science spending is handled by the same mod.

I also miss the telemetry and surface sample from LordAurelius (which would fit perfectly in the now empty unmannedTech node, so that no required node would be empty when using stock only, except for the first nuclear one).

Edited May 6, 2015 by Yemo

[Yemo]

WARNING edit: resolved

If you use the SETIctt, please stay with the CTT 2.0 for the moment (old version can be downloaded from kerbalstuff from "changelog", if you already installed the new one).

The problem at the moment is, that CTT 2.1 reintroduces enhancedSurvivability, which was already reintroduced by SETIctt 0.8.0 as well.

I will correct this compatibility issue with the next SETIctt version.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Yemo

[Lord Aurelius]

@Yemo

I haven't really tested my science tweaks in 1.0 yet, but the one time I loaded them up they appeared to work. The barometer tweaks are unecessary now since it looks like Squad made the vacuum experiments stock. I should have some time tomorrow to take a closer look.

Also, would you be interested in supporting my stockalike hybrid boosters since PP still hasn't been updated (you could even bundle it in with SETI if you want)? The most recent version welds a 1.25 monoprop tank on an rt-10 and is retextured with a red stripe. It likely needs balancing for 1.0, but otherwise I think it still works.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Yemo]

@Yemo

I haven't really tested my science tweaks in 1.0 yet, but the one time I loaded them up they appeared to work. The barometer tweaks are unecessary now since it looks like Squad made the vacuum experiments stock. I should have some time tomorrow to take a closer look.

Also, would you be interested in supporting my stockalike hybrid boosters since PP still hasn't been updated (you could even bundle it in with SETI if you want)? The most recent version welds a 1.25 monoprop tank on an rt-10 and is retextured with a red stripe. It likely needs balancing for 1.0, but otherwise I think it still works.

I just included them as they were before, one more MM patch makes not difference and gives certainty if squad changes things ;-).

Your HRB would be great! I really missed HRBs early in the game when testing SETIctt.

I have not tested any balance stuff for 1.0 except for the science tweaks, so I have no idea what needs changing.

@all: As you can see, I tried to restrain myself in terms of rebalancing, but rescaling MaterialsBay and Science Jr. was just too tempting.

Since VenStockRevamp is not yet officially released for 1.0.x, I think DMagic is next for inclusion. Especially to bring the Universal Storage wedges in line with the stock science parts.

SETI-CTT 0.8.1

Be sure to have CTT 2.1 installed for this one!

Fixes

• Adjusted to work with CTT 2.1
  

TechTree changes

• BasicRocketry and Engineering101 cost 4 science instead of 5
  

New Science Experiments by Lord Aurelius

• Telemetry Report for probe cores
  
• Automatic Surface Sampler @unmannedTech
  

Science Part Rebalancing

• Mystery Goo larger and 160kg instead of 50kg (they still fit into 1.25m cargo bay)
  
• Materials Bay 0.625m diameter instead of 1.25m, 160kg instead of 200kg
  
• Accelerometer and Gravimeter mass changed to 20kg (still physicsless, so mass added to host part)
  

Science Rebalancing

• All stock experiments rebalanced, based on SETI-BalanceMod 0.8.9
  
• Some have different biome masks, eg EVA/Crew report swapped (allows Crew report in space above biome instead of EVA)
  
• Base science reward = max reward for everything, eg mystery goo, materials bay, surface sample and so on
  
• MysteryGoo gives 18 science instead of 10, transmit for 35% instead of 30%
  
• Thermometer 3 science instead of 8, Barometer 3 science instead of 12
  
• Accelerometer 5 science instead of 20
  
• Gravimeter 7 science instead of 20
  

Edited May 7, 2015 by Yemo

[Guest]

hi does this mod pack have a ckan config, like to install the authors recommended/supported mods and tweaks all at once? if not does anyone have a detailed "how to install" the mod set/tweaks onto a base game install (including any needed in game settings)? it would really help me out getting into this tech tree which i'm really looking forward to

[Yemo]

hi does this mod pack have a ckan config, like to install the authors recommended/supported mods and tweaks all at once? if not does anyone have a detailed "how to install" the mod set/tweaks onto a base game install (including any needed in game settings)? it would really help me out getting into this tech tree which i'm really looking forward to

At the moment, only SETI-CommunityTechTree, SETI-Contracts and SETI-Greenhouse work with 1.0.2.

All of them have basic CKAN configs for the dependencies (CommunityTechTree 2.1 and the latest ContractConfigurator in addition to ModuleManager).

Please note that at the moment, only stock parts are directly supported/changed. All the other gameplay and part mods work as they do without SETI.

The long list of mods in the OP was for the SETI-BalanceMod, which does not work for KSP 1.0.x.

The SETI-CommunityTechTree is intended to pick up on this list, while the SETI-BalanceMod update will have to wait until KSP is more stable in terms of balance.

[jimos]

I cant get this working i have tech tree and community tech tree but it doesnt seem to be loading up

[Yemo]

I cant get this working i have tech tree and community tech tree but it doesnt seem to be loading up

So you have SETI-CommunityTechTree v0.8.1, CommunityTechTree 2.1 and ModuleManager.2.6.3.dll installed?

When you start a new career and click on "basicRocketry", how much science does that node cost?

Is the Probodobodyne HECS probe core available in the "start" node?

Do you have any other mods installed (Screenshot of your GameData folder)?

[jimos]

where does module manager go?

- - - Updated - - -

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr277/Soloqwerty/kerbal%20mods_zpsiaom4gsi.jpg this is the mods i have installed ive checked there is no pro core in my start tech

[Red2blue]

the module manager dll is going directly into the gamedata folder --> \gamedata\ModuleManager2.6.3.dll

[jimos]

I installed module manager to the plugin folder still no luck

[Yemo]

where does module manager go?

- - - Updated - - -

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr277/Soloqwerty/kerbal%20mods_zpsiaom4gsi.jpg this is the mods i have installed ive checked there is no pro core in my start tech

The ModuleManager.dll goes directly into the GameData folder. It should be installed automatically when SETIctt and SETIcontracts are installed using CKAN (is this a new CKAN version?).

Otherwise just drop the latest module manager dll into GameData (make sure you only have one module manager dll, if it is updated, replace the old one).

[jimos]

Ill try with ckan

- - - Updated - - -

OK did a fresh install it works when you install it with ckan thanks

[Yemo]

Ill try with ckan

- - - Updated - - -

OK did a fresh install it works when you install it with ckan thanks

You are welcome.

About balance:

With SETIctt and SETIcontracts, I tested in hard career mode (needs funds to unlock stuff) and funds were scarce but it was all doable. Maybe a bit too scarce, since SETIcontracts might be used with a tech tree starting manned?

I m thinking of increasing the advance and reward funds of the first 3 contracts, to provide a bit more wiggle room until the procedural contracts are unlocked (which happens by default when you reach space).

Especially if you pick Engineering 101 instead of basicRocketry on hard mode, there is not a lot of money to work with, since you lack the boosters to reach 18km for the altitude contracts (even when just using a probe core).

[Lord Aurelius]

One other thought on starting balance:

Start with the RT-10 (and possibly reduce it's thrust a bit so it doesn't melt parachutes on the way up). Maybe rework the Flea into more of an upper stage vacuum SRB for the initial orbital contracts (i.e. lower thrust, much better vacuum ISP). Put the HRB and Flea where the RT-10 is now.

That way you would have a larger booster at the start so you would be less likely to get stuck on the higher difficulties and would have an early smallish engine for getting into orbit.

[Yemo]

One other thought on starting balance:

Start with the RT-10 (and possibly reduce it's thrust a bit so it doesn't melt parachutes on the way up). Maybe rework the Flea into more of an upper stage vacuum SRB for the initial orbital contracts (i.e. lower thrust, much better vacuum ISP). Put the HRB and Flea where the RT-10 is now.

That way you would have a larger booster at the start so you would be less likely to get stuck on the higher difficulties and would have an early smallish engine for getting into orbit.

Sounds good, unfortunately the Flea looks kind of strange when a decoupler is put beneath it.

How is your rebalancing of the non-procedural HRB coming along?

That would be a great progression replacement for the RT-10 @basicRocketry.

[Lord Aurelius]

I haven't touched it yet, I have some time this afternoon though so hopefully it will reasonably balanced in the near future.

[Lord Aurelius]

And it's updated (thankfully it more or less still worked, just had to change a few values to match the new parts).

I think it's decently balanced for now, it will take a Mk1 pod almost into space if you launch straight up, so it would definitely take a probe suborbital and should have enough power to work as a lower stage for early rockets.

Edit: Did a quick fix, the radial attachment parameters were off. Redownload it if you've already downloaded it.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Yemo]

And it's updated (thankfully it more or less still worked, just had to change a few values to match the new parts).

I think it's decently balanced for now, it will take a Mk1 pod almost into space if you launch straight up, so it would definitely take a probe suborbital and should have enough power to work as a lower stage for early rockets.

Edit: Did a quick fix, the radial attachment parameters were off. Redownload it if you've already downloaded it.

Thank you very much!

About the plans for the next SETI-CommunityTechTree update(s):

In general, the SETIctt is intended to focus on those areas

1. Start with probes and SRBs, then airplanes, then LFOs and then manned space flight

Naturally, this has ramifications for connected areas

1a) Probes needed to be rebalanced and placed in different nodes, to fit into the new progression

1b) Life Support placement has to be adjusted for the later beginning of manned space flight in the tech tree

1c) The whole shifting backwards of manned space flight will have ramifications for station and base parts as well.

1d) Rover Parts (especially wheels) are shifted around in the techtree (eg stock rover wheels earlier)

2. Science/Tech progression rebalancing

2a) New tech nodes, different connections - science spending

2b) Experiments rebalanced in terms of placement in the tree, yields and even other stats - science gaining

3. Basic Parts (Re)balance

I want to keep part changes to a minimum, since this is not the SETI-BalanceMod. However in some "extreme" instances I will change stats or add tweakscale configs or similar.

For example I introduced the 0.625m Basic Jet engine again (though not yet balanced velocity curve, I want to wait what squad does in the next patch) and plan to ensure tweakscaleability of some intakes/fuselage parts for usage with that jet engine.

While this is the general "scope" of the SETIctt, those are the plans for the next update(s):

I. Shifting the RT-10 to the start node and adding the HybridRocketBooster by Lord Aurelius to the basicRocketry node

II. Support for command pod mods, since the stock Mk1 pod is available @(1) in the tree and the stock Mk1-2 is available after (2):

K2 @(2) - 90science

ALCOR directly after the Mk1-2 (second last command node) - 300 science

Taurus HCV after ALCOR (last command node) - 550 science

III. Support for Life Support mods, those are the initial plans, any suggestions for changes are very welcome!

a) TAC Life Support, placement and rebalance (of recyclers) similar to old SETI-BalanceMod, will affect UniversalStorage wedges as well.

since the Mk1 only provides resources for LKO, early placement of first Food/Oxygen/Water containers @(3) enhancedSurvivability - 45 science

WaterSplitters @(4) advSurvivability - 90 science

WaterPurifier @(5) recycling - 90 science

SabatierRecycler/Processor @(7) orbitalStations - 300 science

CarbonExtractor @(9) longTermHabitation - 1000 science

USI Life Support, since the first command pods are available later, life support is shifted back with it.

Also, USI Life Support does not need containers for Kerbin SoI. So since the Mk1 pod is availabe for @45science, I suggest putting the first two containers @(5) recycling - 90 science. Since improved recycling techniques are the main real world hurdle for leaving the home SoI and conducting interplanetary ventures as well as maintaining space stations. So the Mk1 is shifted 3 tiers back, the first containers are shifted 2 tiers back.

I would then shift the large container 3 tiers back to (6) - 160 science.

And the greenhouse 2 tiers back @(7) - 300 science, to maintain the original relative progression. Also USI Life Support assumes some form of recyclers to be installed in the capsules.

This would result in some sort of alignment of the different life support mods. Again, any constructive input on how to handle the shifting back of manned spaceflight and its ramifications are very welcome.

IV. Adjustment of DMagic/Universal Storage science experiments to be in line with the changed stock science parts. Old SETI-BalanceMod as a rough guideline

V. Due to constructive criticism in the CTT thread about the Alcubierre Warp Drive and Freethinker's post in this thread, I will change the override-all for the all-parents-required to a selective override of the CTT settings.

It is planned to override every node to require all parent nodes, except the ones marked with a red arrow in the tech tree overview below (which will be left with their CTT or other mods settings).

edit:

PS to the people whom it concerns: It is really hard to decide what do in terms of a certain life support mod. If I do not reposition the parts, it breaks the relative distance to the first command pod, which might get criticism. If I propose to reposition them, it breaks the absolute position and thus might get criticism, it also effects the relative position to other parts/mods. So I just leave this here as a suggestion and then implement whatever is agreed upon...

Edited May 8, 2015 by Yemo

[Misucat]

Hello!

I started new carrer with SETI but I have a problem when I use RemoteTech (last version 1.6.4). When I Launch a probe, there isn't connection with KSC (probably because Tracking Station no upgrade: no problem with sandbox mod).

I can put a Communotron 16 but it breaks during atmospheric flight

Any idea to start with SETI and RemoteTech please?

[Yemo]

Hello!

I started new carrer with SETI but I have a problem when I use RemoteTech (last version 1.6.4). When I Launch a probe, there isn't connection with KSC (probably because Tracking Station no upgrade: no problem with sandbox mod).

I can put a Communotron 16 but it breaks during atmospheric flight

Any idea to start with SETI and RemoteTech please?

The DP-10 antenna should be available at the start. In normal remote tech it is a 500km omni-ange, always-on antenna which does not break under atmospheric pressure (if you position it with a pointy end towards the direction of travel).

Also for first time remote tech, this guide is very helpful: http://remotetechnologiesgroup.github.io/RemoteTech/guide/

And there is a contract pack for remote tech to finance those com sats. Link should be in the remotetech thread.

edit: Hm, remote tech seems to position the DP-10 at flight control. Give me a few minutes, I ll write a small fix.

- - - Updated - - -

Download: Hotfix for RemoteTech

It places the DP-10 at the start of the SETI-CTT.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Yemo

[kcs123]

Mostly agree with your decision to move parts in different tree nodes. There was a lot thoughts and good discussions made in "More intuitive tech tree" thread and it's development thread.

I already pointed out folks reading those threads to this one, because this is closest thing for all things discussed long time ago.

1a) Probes needed to be rebalanced and placed in different nodes, to fit into the new progression

1b) Life Support placement has to be adjusted for the later beginning of manned space flight in the tech tree

1c) The whole shifting backwards of manned space flight will have ramifications for station and base parts as well.

1d) Rover Parts (especially wheels) are shifted around in the techtree (eg stock rover wheels earlier)

Those ideas are very similar to those in mentioned threads. Things that does not work well in my opinion is that there is too many parts available only within first 2-3 nodes from begining. It should be spread out within more nodes on same level of science progression or become available only in higher grade nodes.

From available parts, I was able to earn more than 40 science in just 2-3 flights. Seems too easy or I was exploited KSP science too much, I don't know.

My wish is that at least at same time when you are able to build first airplane you should also be able to build most simple rover. Reason is that those rovers can be used as nav beacons for landing purposes. Some kind of workaround since vanilla game does not provide with better solutions.

Suggestion for airplane parts.

First wing nodes should unlock only small stock wing parts, canrads, control surfaces. First airplane structural/utility parts should contain small stock landing gears only.

Adjustable landing gears and B9 procedural parts(wings) (suggestion for mods to include if they were not already included), firespitter parts etc. should be added in at least one node tier higher than basic stock ones. Heavier most advanced landing gears should be even higher on list.

I'm suggesting this because I think that player need to make some effort trough career before all those cool stuff becomes available. And despite fact that we all loves those moded parts, stock parts deserves some attention too trough whole career.

Those are just suggestions, use them or leave them as you please and keep doing good work with this mod.

Cheers.

[Misucat]

The DP-10 antenna should be available at the start. In normal remote tech it is a 500km omni-ange, always-on antenna which does not break under atmospheric pressure (if you position it with a pointy end towards the direction of travel).

Also for first time remote tech, this guide is very helpful: http://remotetechnologiesgroup.github.io/RemoteTech/guide/

And there is a contract pack for remote tech to finance those com sats. Link should be in the remotetech thread.

edit: Hm, remote tech seems to position the DP-10 at flight control. Give me a few minutes, I ll write a small fix.

- - - Updated - - -

Download: Hotfix for RemoteTech

It places the DP-10 at the start of the SETI-CTT.

Thanks you very much Yemo

[Yemo]

Mostly agree with your decision to move parts in different tree nodes. There was a lot thoughts and good discussions made in "More intuitive tech tree" thread and it's development thread.

I already pointed out folks reading those threads to this one, because this is closest thing for all things discussed long time ago.

Those ideas are very similar to those in mentioned threads. Things that does not work well in my opinion is that there is too many parts available only within first 2-3 nodes from begining. It should be spread out within more nodes on same level of science progression or become available only in higher grade nodes.

Thank you very much, I will read through the points in this thread!

From available parts, I was able to earn more than 40 science in just 2-3 flights. Seems too easy or I was exploited KSP science too much, I don't know.

For balancing the start, I set it to hard mode and launched the best rocket from the launch pad, doing all the telemetry, thermo and baro science (launch pad and flying low). It gave me 4.2 science total, so that was the basis for setting the costs of basicRocketry and Engineering101 to 4 instead of 5. I try to make the game feasible without KSC science "spam" or any other kind special strategies.

Since the RT-10 will be moved to the start, I guess flying high will provide more science on first flight, though less on second (if basicRocketry is chosen first). So after the first one it cancels out.

My wish is that at least at same time when you are able to build first airplane you should also be able to build most simple rover. Reason is that those rovers can be used as nav beacons for landing purposes. Some kind of workaround since vanilla game does not provide with better solutions.

I saw rovers primarily as space rovers and wanted to place them behind solar panels. But thinking about your suggestion, they could be a great safety fallback mechanism by enabling the player to exploit KSC sience when "stuck".

And survivability would add fuel cells. Though for mun/minmus missions, waiting for solar panels would still be preferable for rovers.

I m still hesitant of putting the balloon wheels and the RoveMate early in the tree, but I could put the command seat and the small wheels @Engineering101, it would be enough for the KSC science fall back, since batteries are available at the start. I could also put the bigger battery pack there, doesnt make much of a difference and saves part clutter.

Oh, and about the battery packs: Though I really try to constrain myself from feature creep, I really want to rescale those batteries to be a bit smaller and thus look less "out of place".

Suggestion for airplane parts.

First wing nodes should unlock only small stock wing parts, canrads, control surfaces. First airplane structural/utility parts should contain small stock landing gears only.

Adjustable landing gears and B9 procedural parts(wings) (suggestion for mods to include if they were not already included), firespitter parts etc. should be added in at least one node tier higher than basic stock ones. Heavier most advanced landing gears should be even higher on list.

I'm suggesting this because I think that player need to make some effort trough career before all those cool stuff becomes available. And despite fact that we all loves those moded parts, stock parts deserves some attention too trough whole career.

Those are just suggestions, use them or leave them as you please and keep doing good work with this mod.

Cheers.

The problem with early airplanes is, that I do not want to shift stock parts around based on the installed mods. It would be a maintenance headache.

But I could create a new node besides basicRocketry and Engineering101 and call it something like earlyAviation, costing 4 science or so. It would contain the Mk1 Cockpit from Engineering101 and some basic landing gear and wing parts and then put prop plane engines into it, eg from KAX. So it would not really slow down the progress towards rocketry and jet engines, but would provide an intermediate step if eg KAX is installed.

Adjustable landing gear and B9procedural are definately planned. Especially since the latter one was one of the "corner stones" of the SETI-BalanceMod in 0.90.

So much stuff to do, not sure what to prioritize.