[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Ant432]

10 hours ago, Yemo said:

Hm, as @Kerbonaut257 suggested, I would also check SETIrebalance first, though I can not exclude the others as that seems very strange indeed. Especially the aprt about "disappear after I play for awhile" anything my mods do should affect the game from the start or not at all, since I only mod configs, not dlls and so on.

So you are saying that you load a savegame and after playing that savegame for some time those options just disappear after some time? No building upgrades in between (since RealChutes uses action groups and those depend on building upgrades, except when you also have Custom Barn Kit + SETI rebalance installed (though that functionality of SETIrebalance might need adjustment for the new CustomBarnKit...).

Due to KSP instability at the moment, I can not test for extended periods of time and I do not experience this issue when I install SETIrebalance + RealChute myself. I d need at least a clear culprit by process of elimination (eg if you can confirm that it is indeed SETIrebalance while the only other installed mod is RealChutes and module manager of course).

 

 

Now that you mention it, it may be building upgrades. I'll start up a KSP career and edit my starting money so I can upgrade the VAB and I'll test the parachutes before and after upgrading. I had this issue before but I am not completely sure it exists anymore. Since breaking after a certain amount of time rather than breaking immediately as it would be the case if mod files were broken it might be a random bug, and maybe the issue is with RealChutes, although I don't have this issue without SETI. I'll check building upgrades and see if they cause the problem. Btw I forgot to mention SETI Contracts when I listed which SETI mods I use but it's unlikely they did anything about it since it's only changing contracts.

EDIT: Yes, it's the building upgrades. I took a Mk1 Command Pod and put a parachute on it, Ic ould toggle the size, then I exited, upgraded the VAB and the only option I had with the parachute is "Toggle Info".

Edited June 9, 2016 by Antonio432

[Recon777]

Hey all. New to SETI, so I'm trying it out. Quick question:

I use RemoteTech, and I noticed the settings mod for SETI says this... "changing the KSC range to cover the whole kerbol system "

I may be misunderstanding what this means, but if the KSC covers the entire system, then what is the point of RemoteTech at all? If you can communicate with all probes and ships, everywhere, then you don't have to build a communications network.

 

[Yemo]

@gobolinno, @Antonio432

Ok, thank you for the info.

@Recon777

Nope, it just means that you do not need a full network around kerbin. One keosync long range com sat opposite of ksc should be enough for kerbin.

Of course everything beyond kerbin is not affected. You still need networks around other bodies for full coverage.

[Recon777]

13 minutes ago, Yemo said:

@gobolinno, @Antonio432

Ok, thank you for the info.

@Recon777

Nope, it just means that you do not need a full network around kerbin. One keosync long range com sat opposite of ksc should be enough for kerbin.

Of course everything beyond kerbin is not affected. You still need networks around other bodies for full coverage.

 

 

Hmm. Okay. I'll give it a shot. Looking at it now, wondering where to begin. I'm used to the stock campaign. Here, I'm not even sure how well the contract progression will provide things like funding and science. Kind of going in blind. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone's made a Youtube Let's Play with SETI yet either.

 

Also...

 

For some reason, I'm getting AVC compatibility errors with the current versions of SETI. I have to click these three buttons every time the game loads.

Did I install it incorrectly?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Recon777

[kcs123]

Well, you got more options to begin. Instead of maned rocket, you can builod some low cost balistic rocket remotely controled. Put termometer and barometer on it, do measurements in flight and send data back to KSC before rocket crash somewhere. You also have oportunity to build small rover with some sci parts on it, drive around KSC and colect enough science to unlock just enough tech tree nodes to progress career further.

Not each flight have to be executed perfectly and all parts of craft have to survive. If you collect enough knowlage to go further, test flight is success despite rocket being destroyed in process. Don't be afraid of failures.

You might also try some other contract packs that gives different oportunities to grind science compared to stock game. Like field research or GAP. Dmagics science stuff come along with this just nice too.

I'm no longer sure, Yemo will have to confirm it, but I think that those AVC messages are harmless.

[Recon777]

12 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Well, you got more options to begin. Instead of maned rocket, you can builod some low cost balistic rocket remotely controled. Put termometer and barometer on it, do measurements in flight and send data back to KSC before rocket crash somewhere. You also have oportunity to build small rover with some sci parts on it, drive around KSC and colect enough science to unlock just enough tech tree nodes to progress career further.

Not each flight have to be executed perfectly and all parts of craft have to survive. If you collect enough knowlage to go further, test flight is success despite rocket being destroyed in process. Don't be afraid of failures.

You might also try some other contract packs that gives different oportunities to grind science compared to stock game. Like field research or GAP. Dmagics science stuff come along with this just nice too.

I'm no longer sure, Yemo will have to confirm it, but I think that those AVC messages are harmless.

 

 

Thanks, I'll try some of those things. I wasn't trying a manned mission, of course. You can't do that at the start of the career with SETI anyway. But the probe I was trying to build could not steer. It had no control (I did put the antenna on) and so the rocket just spun out of control right away. I'm not sure what the solution is, as there are no reaction wheels.

The AVC messages may be harmless, but they are annoying. Three extra clicks for a game that is already way, way too click-happy to start and to exit.

[Ant432]

2 minutes ago, Recon777 said:

 

Thanks, I'll try some of those things. I wasn't trying a manned mission, of course. You can't do that at the start of the career with SETI anyway. But the probe I was trying to build could not steer. It had no control (I did put the antenna on) and so the rocket just spun out of control right away. I'm not sure what the solution is, as there are no reaction wheels.

The AVC messages may be harmless, but they are annoying. Three extra clicks for a game that is already way, way too click-happy to start and to exit.

At start you only have SRB's for engines and SETI disables the "magic torque" so you'l need either an engine with gimbal or RCS thrusters to steer your rocket, which you don't have at the start, so you should build an aerodynamic rocket capable on flying with control, add the probe core, a nose cone on top of it, a SRB below it , ( make sure your TWR is balanced enough, if you take the Grasshopper SRB from Ven's, aim for around 2.0 TWR ) and 4 fins  near the bottom. 

[Ant432]

@Yemo I have done the VAB upgrade test again and copied my KSP log to Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aeXcxMkFnZ1FOajg/view?usp=sharing

[Yemo]

On 15.6.2016 at 3:30 PM, Recon777 said:

Hmm. Okay. I'll give it a shot. Looking at it now, wondering where to begin. I'm used to the stock campaign. Here, I'm not even sure how well the contract progression will provide things like funding and science. Kind of going in blind. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone's made a Youtube Let's Play with SETI yet either.

 

Also...

 

For some reason, I'm getting AVC compatibility errors with the current versions of SETI. I have to click these three buttons every time the game loads.

Did I install it incorrectly?

 While unfortunate, I ll have to consider this to be a KSP-AVC issue.

When I will release new versions, I ll do a workaround by setting the ksp max version to 1.99.99 to prevent it in the future.

Meanwhile you could search for MiniAVC.dll in the gamedata folder and delete them.

 

On 15.6.2016 at 5:36 PM, Recon777 said:

 

Thanks, I'll try some of those things. I wasn't trying a manned mission, of course. You can't do that at the start of the career with SETI anyway. But the probe I was trying to build could not steer. It had no control (I did put the antenna on) and so the rocket just spun out of control right away. I'm not sure what the solution is, as there are no reaction wheels.

The AVC messages may be harmless, but they are annoying. Three extra clicks for a game that is already way, way too click-happy to start and to exit.

With SETIctt, the struggle for control was one of the major early game challenges.

It is an intended progression:

1. Fins (unguided)
2. Control surfaces (atmo-guidance)
3./4. Gimbal (thrust-guidance)
3./4. Directional thrusters (monoprop)
5. Reaction wheels (much weaker with SETIrebalance, but still magical)

 

On 15.6.2016 at 8:09 PM, Antonio432 said:

@Yemo I have done the VAB upgrade test again and copied my KSP log to Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aeXcxMkFnZ1FOajg/view?usp=sharing

That is a lot of mods, which could have interdependencies and are hard to mimic.

But I now testest with only RealChute and ModuleManager installed.

And the right click resize option is only available before you have action groups through buildin upgrades. Since multiple SETI mods activate action groups from the start when CustomBarnKit is installed, I simply do not understand how you got that right click option to show in the first place with that mod configuration?

It seems as if it is intentional from RealChute that this option is unavailable when action groups offer the more detailed settings.

[Ant432]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

 

That is a lot of mods, which could have interdependencies and are hard to mimic.

But I now testest with only RealChute and ModuleManager installed.

And the right click resize option is only available before you have action groups through buildin upgrades. Since multiple SETI mods activate action groups from the start when CustomBarnKit is installed, I simply do not understand how you got that right click option to show in the first place with that mod configuration?

It seems as if it is intentional from RealChute that this option is unavailable when action groups offer the more detailed settings.

I don't get the action groups at start. I think it's because the Custom Barn Kit version is newer than the version SETI  Rebalance is meant to run with so configs and files can't interact with SETI due to them being different than in older versions.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Antonio432

[gerishnakov]

Can anyone please give me a hand reintroducing the old changes that the SETI Rebalance made to the electric charge in probe cores? Way back when it used to give all probe cores 2000 electric charge, which was great - not having to load up otherwise semi realistic probes with a tonne of batteries in the early game. I know it was done in the general settings file but I can't remember the syntax

[Dombi]

Hello everybody.

I'm running into some trouble here. I'm not sure if it is UBM's fault but it kinda looks like it.

I started a fresh career and have just noticed after some hours of it that no manned contracts where appearing. Also, no world firsts for manned tasks. I just tried messing around with the contract configurator to see if something manned would come up but no... This is now officially unmanned space program.

Ever heard of something like this? Could it be UBM?

Thank you

Edited June 19, 2016 by Dombi

[killbotvii]

The OP mentions this being available on CKAN, but I don't see it there. Did it get taken down?

[kcs123]

44 minutes ago, killbotvii said:

The OP mentions this being available on CKAN, but I don't see it there. Did it get taken down?

Unmaned Before Manned, RemoteTech SETI config and RT SETI probe control enabler are available on CKAN.
Unfortunately, while still compatible, SETIctt is not available on CKAN due to frequent KSP updates. Becaouse of that CKAN version compatibility file went wrong on this.

You can dowload it manualy or you can wait just a bit longer untl KSP 1.1.3. is released, I doubt that Yemo is in mood to do silly administrative stuff that will last for just few days.

[kcs123]

I just played shortly Unmaned Before Manned instead of full SETIctt, along with RT and SETI configs for RT. I was short on time before 1.1.3. release, so i deceided to give it a try before full career game in 1.1.3.

@Yemo, small feedback about it:

Ground stations comes in quite nice with RT. Also, disabling signal delay is kind of good thing too. Putting commands in additional GUI for flight computer instead to execute them like it was in game without RT does not bring much to regular gameplay mechanic it just bring more complication. It can be considered as "signal delay was precalculated at ground station, so you can execute all commands to probe as you should when there is no communication lag".

Ground stations reduce number of needed relay probes near Kerbin, well placed probes, two in polar orbit and one or two in equatorial orbit might provide good coverage for early game exploration for Mun and Minimus. It still provide enough chalange and importance to put communication probes on other celestial bodies, allowing you to focus more on interplanetary exploration.

As I also use kOS, it might be overkill to put KR-2042B early in tech node tree. Especialy when new version of kOS is released. As discussed in kOS thread, early kOS CPU should be more massive and EC hungry than those for mid to end game CPU. Pretty much like today smartphone have more CPU power and storage space than one tone weight computer from the seventies. At least it will provide some additional chalange for kOS users as it is powerfull tool in hand of skilled user. Here is suggestion for tech tree placement:

• Cx-4181 - starting tech tree node or close to very early ones
• KR-2042B - suitable for 90 points tech tree requirement
• Compomax Tubeless - around 300 points tech tree, might be slightly less but not too much away from 300
• KAL9000 - one level or two higher than Compomax Tubeless CPU, if Compomax Tubeless is at 300, KAL9000 should be higher at 550, or if it is lowered, then KAL9000 should be lowered too.

I'm also considering to integrate KAL9000 to command probes (unmaned and maned) once techonlogy is discovered, pretty much like TAC or MJ modules are only available when you unlock certain tech tree node, but not before. That part mass or energy consuption would not disturbe anything, i tmight not add mass to probes at all, since it is less of importance too in late game when you have already unlocked more powerfull items.

[Yemo]

On 17.6.2016 at 0:50 AM, Antonio432 said:

I don't get the action groups at start. I think it's because the Custom Barn Kit version is newer than the version SETI  Rebalance is meant to run with so configs and files can't interact with SETI due to them being different than in older versions.

Hm, yeah, CustomBarnKit changed the structure of the config. I adjusted SETIrebalance for it, but of course that version is not published so far. UbM is the only mod currently adjusted to it, the MM statements are within UnmannedBeforeManned-Settings.cfg.

On 18.6.2016 at 1:22 AM, gerishnakov said:

Can anyone please give me a hand reintroducing the old changes that the SETI Rebalance made to the electric charge in probe cores? Way back when it used to give all probe cores 2000 electric charge, which was great - not having to load up otherwise semi realistic probes with a tonne of batteries in the early game. I know it was done in the general settings file but I can't remember the syntax

You can take a look at the SETI-PartMod-SQUAD-Probes.cfg file within the current SETIrebalance, which gives each of the specified squad probe cores 200 EC. And then use/modify the statement for 2000 EC. For a more generic MM statement you can take a look at the SETI-GeneralSettings.cfg of the current SETIrebalance, especially the section for command modules, which adds EC to command pods. And learn from that to modify all probe core EC values.

On 19.6.2016 at 8:30 PM, Dombi said:

Hello everybody.

I'm running into some trouble here. I'm not sure if it is UBM's fault but it kinda looks like it.

I started a fresh career and have just noticed after some hours of it that no manned contracts where appearing. Also, no world firsts for manned tasks. I just tried messing around with the contract configurator to see if something manned would come up but no... This is now officially unmanned space program.

Ever heard of something like this? Could it be UBM?

Thank you

Which contract pack do you use to provide the manned contracts, since stock ksp does not offer separate manned and unmanned contracts?

On 20.6.2016 at 5:00 PM, kcs123 said:

Unmaned Before Manned, RemoteTech SETI config and RT SETI probe control enabler are available on CKAN.
Unfortunately, while still compatible, SETIctt is not available on CKAN due to frequent KSP updates. Becaouse of that CKAN version compatibility file went wrong on this.

You can dowload it manualy or you can wait just a bit longer untl KSP 1.1.3. is released, I doubt that Yemo is in mood to do silly administrative stuff that will last for just few days.

Since some serious issues of KSP will not be fixed in the 1.1.x branch (eg the wheels which require an updated unity version), but are postponed to 1.2.x, I m not really motivated to resume work on the SETIctt redevelopment. It makes it impossible to have a satisfactory state of gameplay in 1.1.x. And 1.2.x is scheduled to make more serious changes again on top of the bug fixes, possibly changing part placement / tech tree as well.

So probably no SETIctt successor for ksp 1.1.x, due to the state of ksp 1.1.x and experience based expectations for 1.2.x. Though aside from UbM and the RemoteTech mods, I will certainly update SETIrebalance for KSP 1.1.x (and most likely just recompile SETIcontracts for 1.1.x).

 

About kOS:

Hm, the mass per code ratio would suggest KR-2042 first, but initial mass would support CX-4181 first.

I ll implement your progression. edit: see next post

And while on topic, I m inclined to remove physicsSignificance from the CompoMax Radial Tubeless and KAL 9000 in the next version of SETIrebalance, so that they simply add their mass to the part they are attached to.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Just rememered another problem with the order of kOS parts.

CX-4181 is simply too fat to fit on 0.625m, which is the size of virtually all relevant stock probe cores...

Thus there is little choice, between the first two, only KR-2042 fits into the probe concept.

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

@kcs123

Just rememered another problem with the order of kOS parts.

CX-4181 is simply too fat to fit on 0.625m, which is the size of virtually all relevant stock probe cores...

Thus there is little choice, between the first two, only KR-2042 fits into the probe concept.

Yep, but also very early in game progress you would not be able to launch miniature probes anyway. Smallest possible size of fuel tank is FT100, that is just the same size of CX-4181. When you advance to the better (smaller) parts, those are mostly in the same tech tree line as KR-2042 (90 science points). At least I was not have able to build something usefull with early parts that does not have at least one 1.25m part.

Somehow I feel KR-2042 way too powerfull for early game phase, it fit more for a phase just before upgrading Research facility to level 2.
Also, put in cosideration power consuption, that will be changed for next kOS relese. More power drain for early parts also mean that you need to bring more batteries/solar panels on craft too. That brings at least some chalange to create good kOS craft early in game, otherwise it feels almost like cheating, to use kOS while you didn't already unlocked MJ modules or TCA.

I understand your lack of motivation for imrovement of SETIctt, considering current state of KSP 1.1.x. UNB with stock tree is not too bad too, probably I would not have time to try out all favorite mods in career game before KSP 1.2. is released, so it will suffice for my career game until then.

Considering that is another game engine change for 1.2. release, it will probably take some time in development, I doubt it will be released by the end of summer. While bugged, I was able to make those wheels playable with different craft designs than in previous releases. It will probably be more rocket building stuff and orbital stations for me than rovers/planes in 1.1.3. career.

Be optimistic, not everything is so bad, have yet to try 1.1.3. when few other mods are updated, but at least some of anoying bugs are fixed in 1.1.3.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Given how kOS works and what it does, would it not make more sense to include kOS functionality within every probe core instead of creating additional parts?

Those already follow the "earlier" = heavier & less capable progress scheme.

SETIrebalance could give (at least the stock) probe cores kOS modules and add probe capabilities to the kOS parts...

 

About KSP 1.1.x, I guess my main problem is, that it is 1.0.x all over again. Already experienced this, really unwilling to do it again. I also consider UbM + CTT to be enough for "fooling around"/"quick & dirty career" games.

Though I consider some changes to the early game. From what can be seen in streams, most just play on normal or moderate science rewards. And thus the first nodes are pretty much irrelevant. Multiple can be unlocked with one mission. I m not sure how to change that. Perhaps a combination of SETIrebalance changing the experiment payoffs and UbM changing science part positions and node costs. I do not want to make it challenging (that is what I plan for SETIctt dev). Just less of a pushover on normal difficulty.

[Dombi]

3 hours ago, Yemo said:

Which contract pack do you use to provide the manned contracts, since stock ksp does not offer separate manned and unmanned contracts?

Well, I don't know... I remember some contracts that said something like, orbit a kerbal, orbit 2 kerbals, plant a flag on said body, etc. These were no longer appearing.


Apparently it wasn't only about the manned contracts anyway, a lot of the contracts from contract packs and from stock were not appearing for some reason. I actually instaled SETI contracts and everything seemed to have returned to normality.

Except 1.1.3 broke all the mods =')

[Yemo]

@Dombi

Hm, UbM is pretty simple and should have no issues or interferences with other mods (except for action groups with custom barn kit...).

 

Also I just checked ckan and it the workaround suggested by @nobodyhasthis2 works fine, current UbM is availabable via ckan for ksp 1.1.3.

The SETI RemoteTech mods do not show up, but I guess that is because RemoteTech is not cleared for ksp 1.1.3 so far.

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

Given how kOS works and what it does, would it not make more sense to include kOS functionality within every probe core instead of creating additional parts?

Those already follow the "earlier" = heavier & less capable progress scheme.

SETIrebalance could give (at least the stock) probe cores kOS modules and add probe capabilities to the kOS parts...

Yes, that is what I was suggested earlier, perhaps I didn't explained well enough. I was thinking of KAL9000 to be integrated in every probe core, but not before it is unlocked (mid to late part of game). Pretty much tech node tree like it already is. So, instead of having additional part, it will be integraded in probe core. Part mass is already low, so it will have no impact in game in terms of gameplay balance, so there is no need to change probe core mass due to this. In similar way as MJ or TCA is integrated in probe cores.

Since, by time when you unlock those tech tree nodes, you have already steped in in interplanetary travels. By then you already learned how to overcome different kind of obstacles and puting just one more part to craft is rather more tedious than interesting thing to do. At that time of playtrough you already got plenty of stuff on disposal and some new parts to try out, so integrating it in probe core will bring player focus to new stuff to discover.

As for gathering too much science early in game, there is not much what you can do or even need to do. For noobs with game, starting is already difficult enough until they figure out how to collect science. For experienced player, you can't do much, they already know how game mechanics work and they were able to unlock early tech tree realy quickly, just with few flights in Kerbin orbit.

I don't think that there is need to change that, experienced player probably already want to solve early obstacle as soon as possible, go to Mun/Minimus quickly and focus effort to send probes on distant celestial bodies. So, collecting enough science is not much of problem, you can unlock tech tree nodes for first level of Resarch building quickly.

But, if you do that too fast, you will get another obstacle, you have plenty of science points, but not enogh money for all building upgrades, because, you didn't finish enough contracts. With strategia and different kind of contract packs everyone can adjust his own gameplay experience as it suits him.

I think that you are on right track, to adjust science parts in different nodes and maybe adjust tech tree node science cost you can slow down that too quick early game progress. Better that than adjusting rewards, that is way too much work to balance properly and someone can easy break that effort by installing not covered mod that gives more sci parts. Again, nothing you can do about it for experienced players, they will found other way around to quickly progress trough early game. And also, it is good to be that way, experienced players can focus then on other stuff in game without too much grinding and avoiding to game become booring to them if they need to restart career.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

The problem with unlocking already integrated modules by tech (like the 3km omni of RT and the mech jeb functions) is, that I currently do not know a way to do this with MM patches alone (ie without including a dll).

So I meant that instead of unlocking the late game module, I would integrate a kOS module into the stock probe cores, with the capability roughly based on the position of the probe core in the tech tree. I would orient myself along the lines of the SAS functionality. Eg SAS level 3? gives KAL9000 capability, while simple SAS only gives a few hundred/thousand disk space.

 

About progression:

I would really love to encourage a different playstyle. For example I consider increasing the costs of parts with crew space 10? fold, makes no sense to have a probe core costing 1000 funds and a command pod costing about 1000 funds. While the real life difference would be much higher, I understand that this might not be feasible with the other gameplay elements the way they are.

Imho it would improve gameplay if science point gathering in the early game was a bit more "achievement" based and thus more predictable. One way to do that would be, to reduce the availability of biome based experiments in the early game. Either by changing the biome masks of existing experiments or by moving the ones providing massive biome based payouts (eg goo, material bay) to later positions in the tech tree. Or a combination of that. This might even encourage players to leave the kerbin sphere of influence before science spamming mun and minmus.

[kcs123]

16 hours ago, Yemo said:

The problem with unlocking already integrated modules by tech (like the 3km omni of RT and the mech jeb functions) is, that I currently do not know a way to do this with MM patches alone (ie without including a dll).

So I meant that instead of unlocking the late game module, I would integrate a kOS module into the stock probe cores, with the capability roughly based on the position of the probe core in the tech tree. I would orient myself along the lines of the SAS functionality. Eg SAS level 3? gives KAL9000 capability, while simple SAS only gives a few hundred/thousand disk space.

Sorry, I was thinking that is possible trough MM patches only, something like NEED:KOS and NEED:PartName:unlocked, but I didn't messed with MM configs much, so I might be terrible wrong on this.
In this case, having KAL9000 capability on more advanced probes with SAS level 3 capabilities will be enough, there is no much need to add disk storage space on other probes. Disk storage space is of much less importance as long as you have working connection to the base, for those few special cases when you don't have connection, you will plan that ahead and simply put better kOS CPU on craft or increase storage trough already available slider.

 

16 hours ago, Yemo said:

About progression:

I would really love to encourage a different playstyle. For example I consider increasing the costs of parts with crew space 10? fold, makes no sense to have a probe core costing 1000 funds and a command pod costing about 1000 funds. While the real life difference would be much higher, I understand that this might not be feasible with the other gameplay elements the way they are.

Imho it would improve gameplay if science point gathering in the early game was a bit more "achievement" based and thus more predictable. One way to do that would be, to reduce the availability of biome based experiments in the early game. Either by changing the biome masks of existing experiments or by moving the ones providing massive biome based payouts (eg goo, material bay) to later positions in the tech tree. Or a combination of that. This might even encourage players to leave the kerbin sphere of influence before science spamming mun and minmus.

I agree, remote controled probes should cost much less than maned command pod, especialy those early ones, with only basic SAS stability. Those should be expendable ones, that is not worth to recovering it, just use it for early first flights with some thermometar and barometar on board for very first science points around KSC.

Cost of command module would not have major impact on game play as it will be the part of craft that you will in most cases going to recover and get full (mostly) refund of it.

Yes, pushing goo container and material bay to 90 science tree node might have better influence to slow down science progress early in game. But also some of DMagic science parts too.

It might be better to describe how my current very early career game look like in 1.1.2. than just suggest what part to push in what node.
It is only Kerbal day 7 and I already unlocked most of 90 points tech tree nodes (only two remained IIRC). With termometer, barometer and crew reports jsut around KSC and old runway I unlocked enough parts to be able to establish first orbital flight.

As soon as I was able to put craft in orbit, due to RT usage, I have put one small comm probe around equator. That was enough to have full control of second probe with ALT SCANsat from DMagic, orbital telescope and additional RT anthena for future Mun connections. That probe, due to multiple sci usage, Local science program with strategia mod and different biomes around polar orbit bringed decent number science points.

After that I did some other small contracts, I have put additional comm probe in polar orbit, much higher altitude, more antenas, without other sci parts and in 90 degree inclination, compared to the first polar probe, to cover Mun if first one is in shadow behind Kerbin. Somehow i felt that another comm probe in nearly stationary Kerbin orbit will be good idea too, for extra connection stability.

From strategia mod, I have also choose Mun unmaned program and send first probe at Mun as soon as possible to build rocket that is capable of more than LKO. For traveling outside of LKO, upgrade of comm center and tracking station was pretty much necessary, as it also unlock precise node mod. First Mun probe included SCANsat too and orbital telescope. Unfortunately, dV was barely enough to establish equatorial orbit around Mun and I didn't know that you also need dish antena on craft to be able to send sci data back on KSC.

So, second, more expencive Mun probe with dish antena was needed for polar orbit. That probe is also used to fullfill contract from strategia, to put in desired orbit and also do 50% of altimetry scan. Multiple things done with single probe. When it was in place, it also allowed stored data from first Mun probe to be send back on Kerbin. While out of fuel, it still have purpose as local comm relay, that was proven useful later on.

Did some other maned orbital flight too, as soon as I tested out that i was able to do that with unlocked parts. I was nearly broke at that moment due to all building upgrades, alsmost all except research building upgraded to level 2. Fortunately, that second Mun probe bringed some money, also I was lucky with 2 Tourist orbital and suborbital contracts. Barely design proper rocket before VAB/Launchpad upgrade that is capable to bring up and down two Mk1 capsule, but it was enough to get paid for tourist travel.

After that, I was able to build first Mun lander (with kOS KR-2042B). That include 3 comm dishes, 4 rotational solar panels and 4 small solar panels as well as 1000 EC battery. Home made power landing script for kOS worked just fine to land this thing near Mun north pole. Two more lander probe are on it's way to land on Mun at different biomes to fullfill strategia program.

At this point, I got 700 000 kebobucks to spend. I still didn't upgraded research building as it will eat a lot of money and I might not have enough to build crafts for other contracts.Also similar sum is needed for administration building level 3 that will allow to chose some more program/strategia that I aim for, before sending probes on Minimus and start with maned space program.

OK, that provided some context for progression discussion. Goo and material bay with few orbital flights along with other rockets to satisfy contracts were come too early and allowed me to unlock bunch of things before reaching Mun (probes were still on travel to Mun). With those in higher tech tree node it will be much more difficult, but still not impossible. As you said, I might send some cheap probe outside of Kerbin SOI, with just termometer and antena instead to establish Mun orbit. That would allow to unlock same tree nodes with different method.

This bring another conclusion, DMagic reusable sci parts are far more powerful in terms of sci points grinding. Almost all should be in nodes that require research building level 2. SCANsat altidude scaners are OK as it is, as those require some time and effort to put in proper orbit until you get reward from it. Telescope is also OK to be in early tech tree, I'm divided in opinion if it should pe pushed higher in tech tree or not. It have limitecd usage, as it can be used only in orbit, despite ability of different biomes.

Got few more ideas about game progression, but I just figured out that I created wall of text that might be boring to read if I continue. I will put some more info later on.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Hm, I just checked again and even the KR-2042 does not fit nicely into 0.625m diameter.

So from my perspective, that would be a major advantage of giving all probes kOS capability. Eg every probe core gets 5000 disk space so people can use the code that would normally fit on a KR-2042. Saves a part in the early game, fits into the probe core diameter and later parts are still superior in terms of disk/mass. Kind of like the integrated 160km omni antenna for remote tech.

Hm, maybe command parts cost increase by factor 20 and crew without command by factor of 10. While the parts can be recovered, doing so far away from ksp would at least cost something.

I really like the idea of material bay and goo at a 90+ node. That would tremendously increase predictability of early career science returns and slow down initial science generation a lot without taking away from the mid game. Maybe material bay to miniaturization at 90 science and mystery goo to composites at 300 science. That would also make those nodes more "viable". Magnetometer and accelerometer can then imho stay where they are for the moment.

Those changes would be especially beneficial in conjunction with the new CustomBarnKit functionality which allows modders to change the number of building upgrade levels. Perhaps R&D cutoffs at 30, 80, 150, 280, 500, 900 science. That would contain some of the beelining to eg particular science parts. Though I m not sure whether that should be part of UbM or SETIrebalance, as the latter might be used in conjunction with other tech trees and thus different cut-off values may be better for those.

Not sure how many/what levels would be good for the launch pad/runway (SPH and VAB should imho influence dimension restrictions instead of arbitrary part counts, so I m reluctant to change those until that is fixed).