[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[kcs123]

25 minutes ago, Yemo said:

So from my perspective, that would be a major advantage of giving all probes kOS capability. Eg every probe core gets 5000 disk space so people can use the code that would normally fit on a KR-2042. Saves a part in the early game, fits into the probe core diameter and later parts are still superior in terms of disk/mass. Kind of like the integrated 160km omni antenna for remote tech.

Well, I thinking a bit ahead, as you might not familiar with future plans of kOS release. Disk mass/space is much less of importance since you always can use "archive" - fixed folder on HDD instead of in savegame file that can be prone to corruption due to mod updates and similar. If you load scripts from archive, you have infinite storage space, regardless what is set for kOS CPU.

In future releases it will be power consuption for kOS that is more important and you will have option, should you try to optimize script code, or spam more bateries/solar panel on craft.

To avoid cheating, maybe to put kOS into only most advanced probe cores ? Like OKTO2, RC-001S and RC-L01 ?
Don't know if those apear late enough in tech tree, I aim for probe cores that apears late in middle section of tech tree (Level 2 research building) or at near end of mid levels, just before you need to purchase level 3 research building before advancing further.

45 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Maybe material bay to miniaturization at 90 science and mystery goo to composites at 300 science. That would also make those nodes more "viable". Magnetometer and accelerometer can then imho stay where they are for the moment.

Yes, something like that. That would prevent abusing local science grinding, and you will have to put some effort to at least put those parts in mun orbit and transmit/recover it for science points. You will still have options to do so, if you realy want it or if you are stuck with something (money/science/rep), so you can do that to unlock needed part that will allow you to progress further in game.

I forgot about Magnetometer and accelerometer, those are fine like it is now. Can't get too much science with those and you will still have something interesting to do while you wait for some rocket to reach distant maneuver node. Have to keep in mind people that plays without DMagics parts (don't know if there many such players), so they have some options too, but pushing at one of stock science part (mistery bay/goo) to level 2 tech tree node above 90 points will have significant importance to gamebalance.

57 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Not sure how many/what levels would be good for the launch pad/runway (SPH and VAB should imho influence dimension restrictions instead of arbitrary part counts, so I m reluctant to change those until that is fixed).

In terms of part counts, I think that level one buildings are way underpowered. Pretty much you need to upgrade those quickly to level 2, otherwise is real struggle to put something in Mun orbit. Level one building should at least support 50 part counts, so you can put something on craft that is meaningfull to do so (doing science research), while weight/width/height limits make more sense.

That, and level 2 building for VAB/SPH/Runway/Launchpad are too cheap to purchase and you are pretty much forced to do so ASAP in game playtrough.

How many building levels to support is highly depend how many mods you want to cover with tech tree, it fits more for SETIctt project, rather than UBM and SETIrebalance. Current three level building would fit UBM along with stock tech tree, with only small adjustment in mentioned part counts and purchase price.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Ah, I see. I ve also read somewhere that putting kOS functionality into other parts might have side effects, though I m not sure whether this info is outdated. Maybe I ll reserve this for a second version of SETIrebalance for ksp 1.1.x and focus on other areas first.

The goo/bay shift to later nodes might even encourage players to send extremely light probes (probe, mag, accel, thermo, baro, oscar tank, lv-1r engines, comm, solar, bat) out to other planets, especially Eve and Duna. That capability should be available with few building upgrades and generalRocketry, providing the LV-1 engine family. Thus easily available to players not using DMagic.

I m actually fine with the 30 part restriction, it is enough for a mun landing with a probe. Though the mass is certainly my main focus in that area. With more levels, the first levels would be cheaper.

Rethinking it, it might make sense to put all the upgrade changes into SETIrebalance, and then implement a check so that they are only activated if SETIctt or UbM are detected. So that those 2 can concentrate on the tech tree part and only a combination activates those specific gameplay changes. Since I guess only the more experienced players will combine UbM with SETIrebalance anyway.

 

That would also mean, that I could release UbM right now and the more complicated stuff can wait for SETIrebalance.

I guess I will also just recompile SETIcontracts, as working on it with the current KSP version seems to be not very time efficient anyway.

[Yemo]

Based on the suggestions by @nobodyhasthis2,  I digged through the ksp-avc and and ckan algorithms concerning versioning.

 

The problem with ksp-avc is, that if the max version is lower than the current ksp version, every such mod generates an error message.

But if there is no max version specified in the .version file (so if there is only a ksp version, but not a max ksp version), it lumps all the "outdated" mods together in one error message and displays the mod yellow.

If the max KSP version is just set to 1.99.99, there is no error message and no color indication that the mod is outdated.

=> Thus for KSP-AVC it is preferential only specify a ksp version and simply delete the max ksp version entry.

 

It is different for CKAN. If CKAN detects a max ksp version entry lower than the current one, or a ksp version entry lower than the current one, it simply refuses to install the mod.

Normally ckan gets those infos from the .version file included in the mod.

=> Due to the above reasons, it is benefitial (for users and modders) for ckan operations to simply set the max ksp version to 1.99.99 regardless of what is written in the .version file.

 

So that you can install a mod via ckan regardless of the current ksp version (but that can be changed by myself without having to reupload a mod, in case of real issues). And when you start the game, KSP-AVC, which is a dependency for most SETI mods, will then show you whether the mod version is actually outdated (for bug reporting/support issues).

 

Imho the best of both worlds. Note that this is only useful since the SETI mods do not install plugins, so there are fewer chances of small ksp updates causing issues.

 

I therefore just updated most mods in that fashion. So they should be installable via ckan regardless of version and only generate one warning message via ksp-avc, even though they are still ksp 1.0.5.

SETIcontracts has also been recompiled for KSP 1.1.3, and adjusted for the new CustomBarnKit (action group unlocks at start).

SETIctt is a special case since a major rework is planned. I therefore decided to not make it available via ckan for the time being. It still works when manually installed.

The next version of UnmannedBeforeManned is ready for deployment. But since it includes some craft files and thus the folder structure is changed, I decided to wait until the CKAN metadata changes are deployed. Should be ready within 24 hours. Otherwise it would lead to self inflicted install issues.

 

Early progression in UbM will be much more challenging (materials bay and mystery goo moved far back). So sending very early mini probes to other planets is recommended. Just like it was done in reality.

The craft files are intended to give new players some help, due to the increased and probably unexpected early game challenge. They (except for the basic jet) are built with parts from VenStockRevamp, RealChute and RemoteTech (+ SETIrebalance, but the mass adjustments might be included in new RemoteTech version).

I would have also included a craft file for early probe missions to other planets, but somehow the small heat shield from VenStockRevamp has disappeared, which is really useful for a "showcase" design.

Since the jet is pure stock, I made it available on kerbalx as well: UbM Hangar on kerbalx.com

Edited June 24, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.0

Massive changes to early progression

• Materials Bay much later @ miniaturization
• Mystery Goo even later @ precisionEngineering
• This makes early science progression much more predictable
• It also makes early science progression much more challenging
• It is recommended to send some simple probes to other planets early on
• Just like it was done in reality

Inclusion of some craft files

• Due to the increased difficulty for early game science point generation
• They are adjusted for the usage with VenStockRevamp, RealChute and RemoteTech
• SETIrebalance highly recommended, especially until RemoteTech dish masses are updated

TechTree cost changes

• generalRocketry 20 instead of 16
• survivability 16 instead of 24

Other part placement changes

• RT-10 solid booster later @ basicRocketry
• KR-7 from RemoteTech earlier @ engineering101
• SnubOTron from VenStockRevamp earlier @ basicRocketry
• 1.25m Fairings earlier @ stability

 

Moved mystery goo only to precision engineering.

Since I had to change the folder structure, there might be install issues (ckan and manual). Please check and report them here so that I can sort them out.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

Oh, and if anyone notices a mission report/youtube/twitch playthrough with the new UbM version or has some feedback, please post it here.

I m very interested to know how other people cope, especially with the new early game "challenge".

[nobodyhasthis2]

22 hours ago, Yemo said:

Based on the suggestions by @nobodyhasthis2,  I digged through the ksp-avc and and ckan algorithms concerning versioning.

[snip]

Imho the best of both worlds. 

Oh yes sounds groovy ! 

Now for the bad news. In terms of supported mods listed in the modpacks to install the whole SETI experience. Some of the supported mods have been pulled off CKAN in protest. Over a silly misunderstanding that has gotten out of control. There more on the CKAN forum.

As far as the effect on SETI goes. Some supported mods on the OP might need to be manually downloaded. There is absolutely no changes required here from the side of SETI. However please don't drip to Yemo if some stuff does not work right now in other mods listed as part of the mod pack.

Edited June 25, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[Yemo]

3 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

Oh yes sounds groovy ! 

Now for the bad news. In terms of supported mods listed in the modpacks to install the whole SETI experience. Some of the supported mods have been pulled off CKAN in protest. Over a silly misunderstanding that has gotten out of control. There more on the CKAN forum.

As far as the effect on SETI goes. Some supported mods on the OP might need to be manually downloaded. There is absolutely no changes required here from the side of SETI. However please don't drip to Yemo if some stuff does not work right now in other mods in the mod packs.

 

Yeah, I roughly followed that development.

Seems like one of my main reasons why I was still modding ksp, the relatively low toxicity of the community (with some exceptions), has ceased to exist.

Well, time to go on indefinate hiatus again.

I ll still check back to see where this goes and do the occasional update, but I guess it is time to move on in terms of my main modding focus.

 

With the recent update, the mod support data (.version files and so on) seems to be in pretty good shape for that as well.

[nobodyhasthis2]

1 minute ago, Yemo said:

Well, time to go on indefinate hiatus again.

I agree. It seems like the best thing to do. We have a new KSP dropping and more hate mail flying around the forums that is sensible. I am off too for a while to take a break.  

[Yemo]

It seems that I accidentally included the wrong (not final) craft files in UbM 1.0.9.0.

I made some further changes to them and updated to 1.0.9.1. Since ckan does not like changing file names, I had to keep the slight naming errors for A5 and A6 (one space too much).

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.1 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Craft file fixes

• DP-10 on all craft changed to start deployed
• Added small inline reaction wheel to A4 - A6
• Replaced LV-T30 with LV-T45 on A5 and A6 plus other adjustments (winglets)
• Added A7 Manned Orbiter

Tech Tree changes

• kOS CX-4181 Scriptable Control System to start node

 

The kOS change is not final, but does not give an unfair advantage anyway. I ll come back to that when kOS changes.

 

For SETIrebalance I decided to split the planned update. Most of the planned changes can wait a bit longer, so that I can push out an update much earlier.

Specifically making the DP-10 start deployed again, unlocking action groups from the start with the new CustomBarnKit and utilizing some of the other new CBK capabilities.

The new CBK allows the change of the number of building levels.

My current plan is, to add some levels to Launch Pad and R&D.

Eg R&D would have 7 levels:

    @RESEARCH
    {
        @levels = 7
        @upgradesVisual = 1, 3, 5
        @upgrades = 56000, 113000, 225000, 451000, 902000, 1804000, 3608000
        @dataToScienceRatio = 1, 1, 1
        @scienceCostLimit = 30, 80, 150, 280, 500, 900, -1
        @unlockedFuelTransfer = 1
    }

Not sure about the Launch Pad values:

	@LAUNCHPAD
	{
		@levels = 7
		@upgradesVisual = 1, 3, 5
		@upgrades = 10000, 19000, 38000, 75000, 148000, 282000, 550000
		@craftMassLimit = 9, 18, 36, 72, 140, 280, -1
		@craftSizeLimit
		{
			@size = 3, 10, 3
			@size = 5, 20, 5
			@size = 6, 28, 6
			@size = 7, 36, 7
			@size = 9, 48, 9
			@size = 12, 60, 12
			@size = -1, -1, -1
		}
	}

 

Any input on that is very welcome!

It would affect ongoing careers, but with alt+12 and holding alt, the difference in funds is easily corrected.

 

[Yemo]

Well, after pm-ing with @tjt , I thought that people still playing 1.0.5 careers would also benefit from the DP-10 fix, so I just updated SETIrebalance for 1.0.5.

That gives everyone the choice whether they want the new CustomBarnKit functionality from above, when SETIrebalance for ksp 1.1.3 is released, without having to forgo the DP-10 fix.

SETI Rebalance v0.9.6.6 (for KSP 1.0.5 , works fine with 1.1.x)

Fixes: DP-10 from RemoteTech

• Starts deployed
• Gap removed

[Anthras]

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster.    I've come into a little issue with the UbM.  It seems that when I have that installed with all the other mods I use, it will not allow me do anything other than the WASD keys in flight mode.  I can not stage, do science, or activate action groups. Only exception to this is using kOS to run commands and scripts.  I have deduced by trial and error that it is with RemoteTech and UbM installed together.  When I just had UbM mod on it's own, worked fine. When I have RemoteTECH on it's own, works just fine.  UbM with all other mods, works just fine.  RemoteTECH with all other mods, works just fine.  It's only when those 2 are running together their is an issue.  Maybe I missed something in reading and this is just an extra challenge to become a programer.  Please let me know if you need any log files, mod list, screenshots, or videos of the issue.

 

Thanks for your efforts,

 

Anthras

[kcs123]

10 hours ago, Anthras said:

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster.    I've come into a little issue with the UbM.  It seems that when I have that installed with all the other mods I use, it will not allow me do anything other than the WASD keys in flight mode.  I can not stage, do science, or activate action groups. Only exception to this is using kOS to run commands and scripts.  I have deduced by trial and error that it is with RemoteTech and UbM installed together.  When I just had UbM mod on it's own, worked fine. When I have RemoteTECH on it's own, works just fine.  UbM with all other mods, works just fine.  RemoteTECH with all other mods, works just fine.  It's only when those 2 are running together their is an issue.  Maybe I missed something in reading and this is just an extra challenge to become a programer.  Please let me know if you need any log files, mod list, screenshots, or videos of the issue.

 

Thanks for your efforts,

 

Anthras

Throwing blind shots here, it will pass some time until I have chance to try everything on KSP 1.1.3., but you can try to delete "SETIremoteTechConfig" folder.
You will not got SETI features for RT (additional ground stations, settings for how you can control RT probe etc.), so game might be more difficult than planed in the begining, but you can adjust RT config alone for your own personal preference later on.

The rest of stuff from SETI should work properly, part placement in tech tree, prices (science and money) etc.

That should suffice until @Yemo provide better answer for this.
Also, it will be usefull info from output log that you can found inside KSP_x64_Data folder or in KSP_Data folder. Upload it somewhere, dropbox or similar cloud service and post link for it here.

And welcome to forum.

[Yemo]

@Anthras

Since RemoteTech is not officially updated for 1.1.3, I m not sure about possibly temporary issues.

I tested with RemoteTech dev build 554 manually installed and otherwise all mods recommended and suggesed by UbM ckan install and found no issues.

Not sure why the ksp 1.1.3 compatible RT dev build is not working for you.

[Anthras]

@kcs123and @Yemo

Thank you for the suggestions.  HERE is the link to the output.log file from my last attempt today.

 

Maybe I should explain the issue a little better.  When I have both RemoteTech and UbM installed, I am not able to activate anything.  I can right click on the thermometer and the box shows up but none of the buttons work.  I can not "Log Temperature".

 

Please let me know if you need anything else.  It is a holiday weekend for me in the US, so I won't be able to do any suggestions until Monday night.

 

As always, thanks for the effort,

 

Anthras

[Yemo]

@Anthras

That sounds like you have RemoteTech 1.7.0 for KSP 1.1.2 installed and not RemoteTech dev build 554 (which is the only one working with ksp 1.1.3 at the moment).

[Yemo]

edit: Removed, see next post

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

I just recieved a bug report from @gamerscircle.

It seems that the bug which prevents upgrades from taking effect is not restricted to existing careers, I just happened to encounter it only when testing there.

I therefore pulled the SETI-CustomBarnKit-Config mod until I can figure out why this happens.

Sorry for the mess.

[kcs123]

Meanwhile, RT is also updated to official KSP 1.1.3. compatible release

[Ant432]

Hey, can you post the Procedural parts fuel tank size limit changes the SETI mods make, i downloaded Real fuels and it resets them to default, so I am stuck with minimum diamater 1.0m and can't change fuel tank and SRB shapes.

[Yemo]

14 minutes ago, Antonio432 said:

Hey, can you post the Procedural parts fuel tank size limit changes the SETI mods make, i downloaded Real fuels and it resets them to default, so I am stuck with minimum diamater 1.0m and can't change fuel tank and SRB shapes.

SETIctt (working, but not supported for ksp 1.1.x) changes the tech/size unlocks. You can find the configs in SETIctt\MM-TechTree-PP, if you have that installed.

SETIrebalance changes the tank contents, the configs are in SETIrebalance\0ProceduralParts.

To my knowledge, no other mods in this thread change procedural parts.

While at one point there were specific configs for RealFuels, I dont think they are in anymore.

 

Hope that helps.

[Ant432]

10 hours ago, Yemo said:

SETIctt (working, but not supported for ksp 1.1.x) changes the tech/size unlocks. You can find the configs in SETIctt\MM-TechTree-PP, if you have that installed.

SETIrebalance changes the tank contents, the configs are in SETIrebalance\0ProceduralParts.

To my knowledge, no other mods in this thread change procedural parts.

While at one point there were specific configs for RealFuels, I dont think they are in anymore.

 

Hope that helps.

I found out what the issue was, Procedural Parts replaces "Procedural Liquid Tank" with "Procedural Real Fuels Tank" if it detects Real Fuels., and the procedural real fuels tank has a seperate config, so i don't need to change the Procedural Liquid Fuel tank config but the Procedural Real Fuels tank one. Can you add configs that change Procedural parts that replace the original ones when it detects a specific mod in a future update ?

For now I will play without Real Fuels since the config confused me. It seems it relies on more tech nodes than the SETI config does, and I don't know what to do with them. So it would be nice if we get a config for Real Fuels tanks in the future.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Antonio432

[Ant432]

SETI Contracts seem to disappear completely for me. I only get the stock repeating contracts and contracts from mods, but after I finished "Manned Orbit and Safe return " contract, I didn't receive any new progress contracts. I use KCT so do they expire or something ? Here is my KSP.log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aN2dseVpNaUNmZlU/view?usp=sharing

And here is my output_log.txt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aNlFQTUJIeGUyUjg/view?usp=sharing

I don0t have any other progress contract mods installed.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Antonio432

[Anthras]

On 7/1/2016 at 10:06 PM, Yemo said:

@Anthras

That sounds like you have RemoteTech 1.7.0 for KSP 1.1.2 installed and not RemoteTech dev build 554 (which is the only one working with ksp 1.1.3 at the moment).

@Yemo @kcs123

Updated to the new RemoteTech and is working.  Sorry for the inconvenience of thinking it was UbM mod. 

Thank you for your troubleshooting efforts and keeping your mods going.  Really adds to my experience of the game.

 

Anthras

[MatBailie]

I've just discovered SETI and have to say that I'm loving it

It feels like a half-way house between Stock (too easy / simplified) and Realistic Progression Zero (I don't have time for it right now).

I did find that installing it was a a bit of an awkward journey, so someone may point out that I've don't something dumb and that's the reason for my "Unexpected Issue"

1. Install a clean 1.1.2
2. Change it to claim that it's 1.0.5
3. Use CKAN to install SETI (including SETIctt) and all of the dependencies but none of the Suggestions
4. Change the install back to 1.1.2
5. Update any mods that can be updated

Everything went well for the first day or so, until I had my first Rescue Mission.

• I launch, get an orbit of about 78km periapsis and about 90km apoapsis
• It's now showing that I'll be about 0.6km from the target next time I reach periapsis
• I slow back 1x speed at a distance of about 5km from target and watch as I close in
• As soon as I get to about 2km from the target (before I begin to match velocities), wierdness ensues
  • Focus suddenly swaps from my vessel to the Kerbal I'm supposed to rescue
  • The Kerbal is in a crazy spin, but can't activate a jet pack to stabilise (So not sure how I'd rescue, since I can't dock with or have the Kerbal come to me)
  • The Kerbal's orbit has mysteriously changed (to be higher slightly higher and more elliptical, something like 90km x 105km)
  • My vessel is now Rapidly headed back to Kerbin, and facing the wrong direction (over 1km/s dV to re-orbit, but in the wrong direction)
  • My vessel no longer has either the fuel or the time to re-orbit before it burn's up

Is this intentional?  Is it something other people have experienced?  Is it possibly/likely the convoluted way I tried to install SETI?  Is there anything I can provide to help work this out?  (I guess I'd need to give my whole GameData folder as well as the Save Game?  Which I can do from home later today if it's useful.)

I'd be tempted to just abandon the mission, but I sank all my money in to it so that I can also use it as a science mission

[kcs123]

No, such thing ar enot supposed to happen. My best guess that you have encountered wierd combination of some mod and stock bug issue with orbital change when you come out of time warp.

While some mods claim to be updated for both, KSP 1.1.2. and KSP 1.1.3. that might not always be a case. Some mods that were updated for compatibility with 1.1.3. might no longer work properly with KSP 1.1.2. You should be aware that CKAN only read .version file without actualy checking in game if something work or not in previous releases, so some issuesw might be expected.

As soon as KSP 1.1.3. is released I have stoped updating mods for KSP 1.1.2. just because I got a feel that something might become broken.
There is only few mods that were not updated for KSP 1.1.3. that I aim for, and I want to test/try some things in KSP 1.1.2. before I switch to latest version.

While not updated for KSP 1.1.3., I belive that SETIctt should not have any issues. Although, I suggest that you install it manualy, just SETIctt on KSP 1.1.3., not trough CKAN at all. Any dependencies for SETIctt are not too strong, you can also wrote down those from KSP 1.1.2. and install those mods if available trough CKAN by yourself, rather than trough recommended menu. Most of those suggestions are also available trough SETIrebalance and SETI UBM mods.

Telling you that, because you will have more luck for everything to get in proper working state than hunt down previous "known good version for KSP 1.1.2." for each mod that you plan to use. Although, it might not be compleatly bug free, you should be aware of that.

As for issue in current career game, you can use ALT+F12 to open a cheat menu and finish that contract, it is not considered as cheating to get workaround from stock game bug.