[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Assassin215k]

if you put a flag in EVA the FPS drops instantly.

Yes, exactly, it too

[SwGustav]

Yes, exactly, it too

Then it's Ship Manifest.

Edit: So I was fiddling with SXT compatibility and the best way it seems, would be to provide prunelist for unpruning needed textures.

Edited March 13, 2015 by SwGustav

[Assassin215k]

Then it's Ship Manifest.

Yes. This is it. I removed mod and all nice. Thank you very much!

[Papa_Joe]

Yes. This is it. I removed mod and all nice. Thank you very much!

Yup. I've been notified of the issue and am looking for a solution. I've also been informed that version 4.0.2 does not exhibit this problem.

I've further been informed that using [] (switching between vessels) corrects the issue in the short term.

I will post when I have a fix and release.

[Yemo]

The science mod seems to be incompatible with SETI, because it changes the experiment transmission values.

But the probe core experiment looks interesting.

About the Karbonite support, I m thinking about making Karbonite an option of the procedural liquid fuel tank, since the amount of Karbonite density is the same as the balanced liquid fuel density.

So it would look like that:

1. procedural liquid fuel tank gets new tank type option: Karbonite

2. procedural xenon tank renamed to procedural special fuel tank with new tank type option: Karborundum

3. new procedural storage container with tank type options for mks parts, spare parts and so on, maybe KAS storage option

4. new procedural storage tank with tank type options for the rest, like biomass and so on

I will also take another look at the real fuels inclusion next week, though directly supporting it would be too much because of the required testing effort.

But I could recommend changes for inclusion into eg Real Fuel Stock Tank Prices by karamazovnew, maybe dependent on whether SETI is installed.

Maybe I ll make another subcategory for the recommended gameplay and part mods. Currently there are the bold ones (strongly recommended) and the normal ones (recommended), but the number of links is growing and there are many other mods that work well with SETI, but are very specific and thus not specifially supported, yet. Like the infernal robotics model rework packs, or the foundry wheels and real fuels.

[SwGustav]

1. procedural liquid fuel tank gets new tank type option: Karbonite

That sounds good, however shouldn't it be renamed as well? Unless Karbonite is liquid..

Might wanna also rename Other Part mods into Other Optional Mods (bcause not just parts there)

Edit: How does IR part rework work? Is it just set of parts (without replacing default) with the same tech positions?

Edited March 14, 2015 by SwGustav

[Smegghed]

Hey guys,

Thanks for pointing out the issue with Ship Manifest! I streamed the beginning of my adventure, but found the FPS issue to literally stop me in my tracks, and I haven't had the time to do a mod-by-mod install like I usually would. Looks like it's time to give it another go!

Also, I'm a complete sucker for science mods. How do you feel about Nehemiah's set of science experiment mods? Specifically, Kemini Research Program (KRP), Kerbal Environmental Effects Study (KEES), Orbital Material Science (OMS), and Kerbal Life Science (KLS). It appears to be based on real-world experiment packages. I've only been able to check out the KRP when starting out a custom install the other night, but I liked it. He's got the entire package wrapped up here , with links to the separate mods there.

I'm pretty horrible at recognizing balance issues, certainly not like you guys. I'm usually the one who throws 50 mods together and screams "YAY!!!", so I defer to your better judgement.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed your break, Yemo!

[Yemo]

That sounds good, however shouldn't it be renamed as well? Unless Karbonite is liquid..

Might wanna also rename Other Part mods into Other Optional Mods (bcause not just parts there)

Edit: How does IR part rework work? Is it just set of parts (without replacing default) with the same tech positions?

As far as I know, Karbonite is liquid (I assume based on the extraction method - drilling).

I just renamed them to "Additional Mods", thanks for the hint.

There are multiple packs in the model rework, massively extending the part count and the possible functions. Those part packs together can easily replace the stock IR parts, with much more varied functions, like different pivots, sizes and so on.

Unfortunately they do not follow a naming scheme, so they are spread all over the VAB utility list. It is more like a total conversion replacement than just a model rework and as far as I remember, they are independent but based on the standard tech tree positions.

Hey guys,

Thanks for pointing out the issue with Ship Manifest! I streamed the beginning of my adventure, but found the FPS issue to literally stop me in my tracks, and I haven't had the time to do a mod-by-mod install like I usually would. Looks like it's time to give it another go!

Also, I'm a complete sucker for science mods. How do you feel about Nehemiah's set of science experiment mods? Specifically, Kemini Research Program (KRP), Kerbal Environmental Effects Study (KEES), Orbital Material Science (OMS), and Kerbal Life Science (KLS). It appears to be based on real-world experiment packages. I've only been able to check out the KRP when starting out a custom install the other night, but I liked it. He's got the entire package wrapped up here , with links to the separate mods there.

I'm pretty horrible at recognizing balance issues, certainly not like you guys. I'm usually the one who throws 50 mods together and screams "YAY!!!", so I defer to your better judgement.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed your break, Yemo!

It's good to be back, thank you!

Nehemiah's experiements look great, but there are a lot of them, so it will take some time for testing and integration. Also I ll probably recommend to lower the science gain when using them, since they will add lots of science points. Especially together with the other additions on my list, like telemetry/probe core science and CactEye and so on.

And since 0.9.0 (Karbonite/MCM...) is half way done, I will first finish that one in the next days.

I also just watched the first hour of your twitch stream from May 6th, sorry about the lag, it appears to have been related to the ShipManifest issue when parts of your active vessel get destroyed and kept being a problem until the active vessel is redefined by staging, as SwGustav said. And since you lost the DP-10 antenna, it affected you every launch. Will take a look/read up on it, now that I m back, maybe I can help Papa_Joe track it down.

I learned a lot from your stream and will include that into the planned second post in this thread, making something like a guide.

The most important one is, that I have to make a compact Changelog, mentioning the major SETI changes, like the 160km integrated antenna for probe cores, the transmission value changes for experiments, the crew/eva biome switch and so on...

I ll also have to test Kerbal Construction Time, the 40 days seem to be a lot for the small rocket and the mod seems to be quite popular.

Also I ll have to rethink setting recommendations, and try to avoid the experience bias. Working with SETI all the time is very different than just starting with it. Maybe some different setting screenshots will help, differentiating between different levels of familiarity with SETI and the underlying mods.

Some specific remarks about the stream:

The DP-10 needs to be placed vertically, so that it does not snap, no idea how to change that, it should be physicless anyway.

All probe cores in SETI have a 160km remote tech antenna, so the DP-10 is not necessary for reaching orbit.

Thrust adjustments, especially for the SRBs, to keep the TWR around 1.28 or so with FAR.

The craft files in the SETI-Download provide great starting points in terms of design, especially regarding aircraft/jets.

edit: I ll also put Tantares on my close after 0.9.0 list, thank you for the first stream of the SETI-BalanceMod!

About antennae:

Since the probe cores have an omni antenna for launch, how about a rebalance of the DP-10?

So that it is not always on, needs more energy, but has a higher range, like 1.2Mm.

Since it would still be able to withstand the atmo pressure when placed with a pointy end towards the direction of travel, it would allow atmospheric probes to connect to a LKO com sat network around Kerbin. At the moment, that is only possible with rigid dishes, which have to be pointed at a specific direction.

Also, should I add a small always on omni antenna to non-probe command pods?

Not sure if it should have 160km range, or a smaller one, eg 12km or so, which would still be usefull for hopping around bases and docking, but for that small range it would imho be ok to not drain energy constantly.

I could release that in a minor patch before 0.9.0, together with the procedural probe core...

Edited March 15, 2015 by Yemo

[SwGustav]

@Smegghed

Where can I found this stream of yours?

About antennae:

Since the probe cores have an omni antenna for launch, how about a rebalance of the DP-10?

So that it is not always on, needs more energy, but has a higher range, like 1.2Mm.

Since it would still be able to withstand the atmo pressure when placed with a pointy end towards the direction of travel, it would allow atmospheric probes to connect to a LKO com sat network around Kerbin. At the moment, that is only possible with rigid dishes, which have to be pointed at a specific direction.

Also, should I add a small always on omni antenna to non-probe command pods?

Not sure if it should have 160km range, or a smaller one, eg 12km or so, which would still be usefull for hopping around bases and docking, but for that small range it would imho be ok to not drain energy constantly.

The integrated pod antenna is obsolete coupled with that DP-10 buff (which is a goodidea) unless you make it use super small amount of electricity and even then I don't know. It's just not as vital.

[Yemo]

I read about KIS (Kerbal Inventory System) today and that will result in quite some changes, since KAS storage will become obsolete and SETI adds KAS storage to many command parts...

I m working/asking for on a relatively user friendly transition...

The twitch profile name is "smeggco" and the stream is from May 6th: http://www.twitch.tv/smeggco/profile/past_broadcasts.

For 0.8.3:

I ll rebalance the DP-10 as written above.

Also I ll include a basic procedural probe core, will have to work on the reaction wheel inclusion before adding that, most likely later than 0.8.3...

Same problem for the procedural Fuel Cell, I ll have to find a way to scale/change the conversion modules.

The Landertrons get tweakscale support, so they should be usable on probes.

Also I might include USI Survivability support, without BetterBuoyancy and maybe without the DERP pod. It will be usefull for resource extraction from oceans and general landings (airbags) and I do not want to wait until the other stuff is ready for implementation.

[Lord Aurelius]

Yemo, good to see you back. Looking forwards to the next update.

As far as adding antennas to command pods, I would be all for that, if there's room to add a 160km omnidirectional antenna to the OKTO2 core, then there's room to squeeze it into all the manned pods. This would especially help with the early aircraft and manned flights when we're still stuck with the 30 part limit.

[Yemo]

So I ll add the 160km antenna for the other command pods, does not change the RT balance too much anyway. Every car has antennae integrated, eg in the rear window.

There is a mid term solution for reaction wheels and fuel cells in sight, it might be possible to use the MCM template switcher for that.

However that will require some more testing and maybe some changes for the MCM template switcher on Angel-125's side, so mid term if at all.

Until then, I m not sure what to do.

I could make a procedural Fuel Cell with a scalable amount of oxygen and hydrogen. But I have to set a fixed FuelCell converter module for now, which adds a fixed amount of mass to the procedural part.

So I m thinking about going for the mini fuel cell stats, with one 1ec/s and one 2 ec/s converters at a converter mass of about 40kg, with the oxygen and hydrogen storage and mass scalable with the size.

[Yemo]

New Version 0.8.3

New/Unused Parts/Textures

• New Procedural Probe Core (without reaction wheel for the moment)
  
• New Stop Gap procedural Fuel Cell, if the CommunityResourcePack is installed
  

IMPORTANT: KAS/KIS transition

• KAS storage seems to get replaced with KIS inventory space, according to the KIS/KAS forum threads
  
• So it is recommended to move KAS parts from KAS storage to KIS inventory, before KAS storage is discontinued
  
• However KIS was only recently released and thus bugs/compatibility issues are expected
  
• This patch introduces some early transition elements for SETI, which are used if KIS is installed
  
• All parts with KAS storage now have KIS inventory space in addition to the KAS storage
  
• So that you can EVA and take parts out of the KAS storage of a container and put them back into the KIS storage of that same container
  
• However the KIS inventory on Command pods does not yet work with KIS 1.0
  
• For more info about the general transition, please consult the SETI/KIS/KAS forum threads
  

Rebalances & Adjustments

• Added a 160km always-on omni antenna to all command pods
  
• Added a 24km always-on omni antenna to Command Seats
  
• Rebalanced the RemoteTech Reflectron DP-10 antenna to be not always-on, require more energy, but have a range of 1.2Mm instead of 600km, available @basicRocketry
  
• Added TweakScale support for Landertrons
  
• Added CLS support for decouplers
  
• Micro Goo later @metaMaterials
  

Minor Changes and Fixes

[SwGustav]

Good patch, though I don't understand KIS transition

Does that mean KAS will be merged with KIS soon?

[Enceos]

Good patch, though I don't understand KIS transition

Does that mean KAS will be merged with KIS soon?

KAS storage will get obsolete and unsupported soon.

[Yemo]

I plan to release another small update (0.8.4) before continuing with 0.9.0.

It should fix the omni-antennae for command pods (which do not work at the moment), lower the transmission costs when using those integrated antennae (will rebalance the rest at another time), provide USI Survivability Support, hopefully include Enceos adjustments with regards to the KIS transition and introduce a new craft pack for fully modded games.

At the moment the Basic Jet seems to be not working correctly with Ven's Stock Part Revamp.

I also rearranged the first and second post of this thread, listed the major SETI changes between "Install" and "Mods" and made a small Guide in the second post.

The fully modded craft pack will therefore include a new basic Sat and at least a basic Mun Probe, maybe even a Mun Lander Probe.

[SwGustav]

The fully modded craft pack will therefore include a new basic Sat and at least a basic Mun Probe, maybe even a Mun Lander Probe.

Perhaps you might be interested in my designs? (All are for maxmod game)

First one is Mun Flyby Probe, however delta v messed up and it can orbit Mun as well. You only need a basic network with some Mun reach, it's ultra light and has space for 10 more parts (put your instruments, or extend for other tasks). Made with tech tree of first level of R&D.

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Initially I planned to put all science instruments in one action group, launch probe on free return trajectory and program the remote tech computer to use that group at Mun periapsis, then manually transferring data on the way back (straight to KSC). That meant you could get Mun orbit science without ANY comm sats (though you did need patched conics). BUT I found out remote tech computer lacks action group activation.. So yeah.

Second probe is Mun Orbiter + Lander - it's a 2 part craft: lander and orbital comm sat. It's boosted from parking orbit by HRB, and circularizes on its own. First 3 pics are outdated, no more second stage, just one big fuel tank (making it SSTO) - like this. However it's kinda complex and not as SETI-like as you'd probaby want + it requires VAB & launch pad upgrades (I think I can make a simple version without orbiter and any needed building upgrades, probably for use in conjunction with simpler comm orbiter launched earlier). The only problem with craft is that navball is upside down, really don't know why (control from here doesn't work either). Not as modifiable as Flyby Probe.

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I also noticed something strange with proc probe core - it can't be modified as root part or when not attached. Other proc parts do fine.

Suggestion: add tweakscale support to compartment tubes or tech tree support to this.

Another suggestion: procedural SRB segment (procedural solid fuel tank) with additional oxidizer option - don't know if possible at all, basically allows you to construct SRBs in more shapes. SRB will drain solid fuel top to down if any of those are connected as stack. Pic

Edit: There are new contract packs coming out that interfere with default SETI progression, "all contract packs in the ContractConfigurator thread are recommended" should be changed

Also, maybe make Kerbal Engineer parts tweakscalable too?

Edit2: It seems Orbiter&Lander can be improved by moving lander underneath, that may solve navball problem and remove awkward decoupler positioning

Edited March 17, 2015 by SwGustav

[Yemo]

@SwGustav:

Changed the CC description in the OP.

I like the suggestions for extending TweakScale support and the other compartment tubes. But I m not sure I can include it until after 0.9.0, because of necessary testing, especially with the new TweakScale and the KIS transition.

I do not know of a way to change SRBs in such a way.

Also not sure about the procedural probe core, will probably have to wait until after 0.9.0 as well.

Your designs are a great inspiration, especially the micro one.

I m not sure about the scope of the planned SETI Mun Probe(s), but I want to keep them as simple (in terms of usage) as possible.

I thought about a micro probe like yours, for simple contract completion and basic science (but with a small dish, so it does not require the flight computer).

Maybe with lots of excess deltaV, so people can make Mun orbit without comsats covering the dark side of the mun and thus gather science low above the Mun.

Or a larger version with (double?) materials bay and mystery goo, with reentry capability (to get the full science from the latter two experiments).

But I m not sure if this is too much for a craft pack designed at getting people started.

[Papa_Joe]

Just an update on the Ship Manifest frame rate issue...

New Release:

Version 0.90.0_4.1.3.1 - Release 18 Mar, 2015 - Better Behaviors Edition. (bug fixes)

- New: Revised SM Crew transfer display to show "Moving" in place of the Xfer button for the kerbal being moved when the crew transfer is in progress. Helps with Xfer process visibility.

- Bug: Exceptions reported by SMAddon.CanShowShipManifest method when loading directly into a vessel on the pad from KSC.

- Bug: Frame rate slow down issues reported when planting a flag, coming near debris in flight mode. Issue was introduced in version 4.1.0

- Bug. Selecting a resource generates errors.

As always, let me know if you find any issues.

Enjoy!

[Yemo]

Just an update on the Ship Manifest frame rate issue...

New Release:

Version 0.90.0_4.1.3.1 - Release 18 Mar, 2015 - Better Behaviors Edition. (bug fixes)

- New: Revised SM Crew transfer display to show "Moving" in place of the Xfer button for the kerbal being moved when the crew transfer is in progress. Helps with Xfer process visibility.

- Bug: Exceptions reported by SMAddon.CanShowShipManifest method when loading directly into a vessel on the pad from KSC.

- Bug: Frame rate slow down issues reported when planting a flag, coming near debris in flight mode. Issue was introduced in version 4.1.0

- Bug. Selecting a resource generates errors.

As always, let me know if you find any issues.

Enjoy!

Thank you very much!

I think many of the problems were based on old versions, which were not updated, since KSP-AVC did not work in previous Ship Manifest versions and people forget to check manually, if they have KSP-AVC installed.

I plan to release an update later today (UTC) and will put a reminder in the update notes to update Ship-Manifest as well, for visibility.

Also, problems appeared for MCM/MKS/OKS support/balancing.

Eg, the mass calculation of MCM templates is switched off and Alpha125 is occupied with fixing functionality bugs.

Not sure what to do about it.

Currently all MCM configs have the very low mass of 1.25 tons regardless of the selected module.

I can not fix the problem on the SETI side, so I could either set the default mass higher or leave it until fixed by Alpha125. Neither option is appealing for a balance mod.

Then there are the additions to MKS/OKS I just read about, which are not accounted for by MCM at this time.

And the KIS/KAS transition will affect MCM as well, increasing the likelyhood of problems and again increasing the workload for Alpha125, thus making a mass-switch bug fix even more unlikely.

I do not want to officially support Kolonization without MCM either, since reducing catalog count is one of the main features of SETI.

So after a pm exchange with Freethinker, another option is available for 0.9.0:

- Karbonite (nearly finished)

- KSPI extended (which already supports the CTT and NF compatibility, so it should be easy to integrate it into SETI without much work)

PS: That would have been quite a rollercoaster in terms of MCM/MKS/OKS and KSPI support. From the original development plans to all the shift arounds...

Edited March 18, 2015 by Yemo

[SwGustav]

FYI CC description under Install is still old

So I made a Mun Sample Recovery Probe, that doesn't require any building upgrades. No room for expansion (unless you get VAB & launch pad upgrades), but can be remade into light version with a pair of goo containers instead of material bay. It's also super easy to land and maneuver.

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The idea is to land on bright side without any Mun orbit, take a sample (with material bay) and instrument readings and then lift to the Kerbin straight away. Before reentry, decouple upper probe and lock it to retrograde (heatshield included). Once in atmo, activate parachutes. If performed right, does not require any comm sats (although one or two would make things easier).

[Yemo]

The direct approach is a great idea to avoid the remote tech restrictions!

I noticed some other stuff I was not aware of, eg

- New science experiments (from DMagic)

- We now have 2 nearly identical chutes (RealChute Cone Chute and Mk16XL Parachute), but none for light probes

So I ll rebalance that and probably do something about the parachutes in general. No need to have a 80kg case for a tiny probe chute...

edit: And the procedural heat shield base mass of 200kg is a bit much as well, for tiny probes...

There are also some bug fixes, the volume rebalances by Enceos (thank you very much!) and of course the new craft files for fully modded games, which I need in order to extend the guide in the second post.

With all that, the 0.8.4 update needs to be postponed until late thursday (tomorrow), UTC.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Yemo

[Yemo]

New Version 0.8.4

IMPORTANT

• Update your Ship Manifest version, older versions do not show that they need updates with KSP-AVC
  
• KIS/KAS transition, see patch notes from 0.8.3
  
• KIS still needs the first round of bug fixes, so you might want to hold out until then
  

Extended Mod Support

• USI Survivability (temporarily without DERP)
  

New maxMods craft pack, including new SETI MunProbe (only for maxMods) and updated BasicJet, for Ven's StockPartRevamp

Rebalances & Adjustments

• Many part volumes changed for KIS inventory, all done by Enceos
  
• Procedural HeatShield rebalanced, procedural dry mass instead of mass constant, more expensive
  
• Rebalanced Parachutes in terms of mass and costs, especially RealChutes, which are now case independent
  
• Lowered transmission energy costs for integrated 160km antennae from 15 to 5 energy per packet
  
• Rebalanced the 2 rather new DMagic experiments
  
• Universal Storage Waste, WasteWater and CarbonDioxide tanks moved to recycling in CCT
  

Minor Changes and Fixes

• Fixed integrated omni antennae for command pods
  

Edited March 20, 2015 by Yemo

[Lord Aurelius]

@Yemo

Thanks again for this amazing mod. Looking forwards to trying out the latest update.

One quick thing: on the OP USI Survivability is not listed as being supported, the only place it appears on the page is in the development section.

[BrutalRIP]

what are we supposed to use to store Karbonite with this mod??