[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[ss8913]

On 10/8/2016 at 5:21 PM, Denko666 said:

Hey @allista You're probably busy updating TCA to KSP 1.2. 

But When u have some time/interest for adding something to TCA: I got a little challenge for ya. . 

I use TCA on my spaceplanes. the idea is: an incomplete interplanetary vessel is built in orbit. A spaceplane then takes off from the KSC just like a regular plane, but climbs all the way up to space and meets with the interplanetary ship. It docks, completing the setup by serving as its command bridge. once arrived at destination, the spaceplane undocks again and serves as lander on the new world. 

But

Lets say the destination is a planet with an atmosphere, like say Duna. Landing a spaceplane o, a, uninhabited world (and so: no runway) is next to impossible. So once the spaceplane has descended enough it would need to switch from plane mode to VTOL mode. I haven't found a way to do that with TCA. by the time i got it switched over (switching engine config, activating proper modes) something disastrous either has happened or has become inevitable. Maybe TCA can already do that, but then i don't see how.

it just depends on your design.  Almost all my spaceplanes have VTOL capability; just put downward firing engines on a second action group.  make sure only one group is active at a time, and TCA handles this in the way you'd expect.  I've actually done the exact mission you describe (to Duna, Eve, Laythe) with a spaceplane designed as such.  I use KSPIE propulsion tech but this also works with stock, B9, other engines.

[Denko666]

4 hours ago, ss8913 said:

it just depends on your design.  Almost all my spaceplanes have VTOL capability; just put downward firing engines on a second action group.  make sure only one group is active at a time, and TCA handles this in the way you'd expect.  I've actually done the exact mission you describe (to Duna, Eve, Laythe) with a spaceplane designed as such.  I use KSPIE propulsion tech but this also works with stock, B9, other engines.

Well,,  i usually have something like this set up:

Ag1: jet engines (tca g1: manual) 

Ag2: rocket engine (tca g2: manual) 

Ag3: all VTOL engines (split in tca as follows:) 

Tca g3: thrust : large engine cluster right below CoM

Tca g4: thrust+manouver : medium engines facing down at the plane's extremities 

Tca g5: manouver : small engines facing sideways, 2 in each direction 

I use T. G. O. L.  radial engines for this (they're on spacedock) 

So on entry,  ag2 will probably be active. To switch over i would need ag3 to become active with the corresponding setup in tca BUT keep ag2 also active for forward movement. The problem i have is when i do this tca always decides to either change the thrust and maneuvering settings to  alll the same for all vtol engines, or it changes the rocket engine from manual to thrust and maneuver or it deactivates the rocket engine all together. By the time i correct it... Well u can guess what.

[Spark Plug]

Greetings!

This mod has worked great in flying my rescue choppers, but does anyone know which engine thrust mode is best for a pair of ship turbines? Would "Maneuever," be an  optimal setting? I'm making use of parts from the Maritime Pack, btw.

[allista]

On 10/9/2016 at 3:21 AM, Denko666 said:

Hey @allista You're probably busy updating TCA to KSP 1.2. 

But When u have some time/interest for adding something to TCA: I got a little challenge for ya. . 

I use TCA on my spaceplanes. the idea is: an incomplete interplanetary vessel is built in orbit. A spaceplane then takes off from the KSC just like a regular plane, but climbs all the way up to space and meets with the interplanetary ship. It docks, completing the setup by serving as its command bridge. once arrived at destination, the spaceplane undocks again and serves as lander on the new world. 

But

Lets say the destination is a planet with an atmosphere, like say Duna. Landing a spaceplane o, a, uninhabited world (and so: no runway) is next to impossible. So once the spaceplane has descended enough it would need to switch from plane mode to VTOL mode. I haven't found a way to do that with TCA. by the time i got it switched over (switching engine config, activating proper modes) something disastrous either has happened or has become inevitable. Maybe TCA can already do that, but then i don't see how.

I would suggest two things:

1) toggle TCA with action groups, combining with engines. E.g. set TCA, VTOL engines and plane aft engines to the same action group, which would switch between TCA+VTOL and plane modes.

2) use TCA's macros; they were designed just for the situation -- when you need to quickly push many buttons in right succession at the right moment.

[Squishydoo]

1.2 compatible?

 

[allista]

15 hours ago, Squishydoo said:

1.2 compatible?

Not yet. I'm working on it.

Edit1: alas, simple adaptation to API changes did not work. TCA compiles, standard VTOL stuff works (as far as I've tested), but orbital calculations are broken. Will need some time to debug this...

Edited October 14, 2016 by allista

[Meiyo]

Allista, i love you.

I cannot live anymore without TCA !

I want to support you, but Patreon doesn't work for me.
If you have an other platform(or a paypal) for donation please post here or PM me !

 

[allista]

TCA v3.2.4 for KSP 1.2 (2016.10.15)

ChangeLog:

  Hide contents

• Compatible with KSP-1.2
• ToOrbit Autopilots
  • Added user-definable slope parameter.
  • Engines will now always have full thrust until initial apoapsis is reached.
  • Fixed inclination correction algorithm.
• ThrottleControl now applies Angular Error correction differently: it will not affect engines that provide torque, so that a ship could retain maneuverability.
• Main throttle is set to 0 on launch if a ship have active engines (in the active profile).
• Improved support of slow engines.
• Bugfixes.

[DaniDE]

Thanks for updating

PS: Oh it works so nice

Edited October 15, 2016 by DaniDE

[kcs123]

You just need to unlock tech tree node. Once you did, TCA is integrated within probe cores, no special part is needed. You need to unlock more than one node with TCA module to be able to use all of features trough career game.

[Denko666]

3 hours ago, allista said:

TCA v3.2.4 for KSP 1.2 (2016.10.15)

ChangeLog:

  Hide contents

• Compatible with KSP-1.2
• ToOrbit Autopilots
  • Added user-definable slope parameter.
  • Engines will now always have full thrust until initial apoapsis is reached.
  • Fixed inclination correction algorithm.
• ThrottleControl now applies Angular Error correction differently: it will not affect engines that provide torque, so that a ship could retain maneuverability.
• Main throttle is set to 0 on launch if a ship have active engines (in the active profile).
• Improved support of slow engines.
• Bugfixes.

My Hero! 

[rafat abubreak]

thnx  man these mod is the basic mod for ksp  

Edited October 15, 2016 by rafat abubreak

[Denko666]

Your mod hard at work:

Squadron Flight tests

[ZEROX]

why is this mod not in stock ksp?

[allista]

2 hours ago, ZEROX said:

why is this mod not in stock ksp?

I suspect the question is rhetorical, but I'll answer anyway 

I think there are three reasons:

First, technical: KSP devs have so much on their plate already and so many mod-implemented concepts they would like to add to stock, that even if they wished to incorporate it, they would probably do it around v2.0.

Second, legal: TCA is licensed under the CC-BY-SA, which is a viral type of a so called copyleft license; while it is not preventing commercial use, it obliges to use the same (or compatible) license. Which Squad probably cannot do. It was not my choice to use this particular license -- I picked up the development of TCA after the original creators left. And to tell the truth, none of the current TCA code is directly based on the original; but the core idea is still there, so I'm not sure at which point I will have the right to change the license. Not a legal expert I am 

Third, conceptual: if you'll look at the stock game carefully, you'll see that Squad made a typical choice of expanding the gamespace "inwards" -- by artificially making simple things harder and by continually subdividing every aspect of the game into some form of a skill-tree. Several kinds of kerbal specialists, several level of their skill, several levels of each building, detailed tech tree... Doesn't it look strange that a "pilot" that learned to hold the prograde/retrograde course still cannot hold the radial direction or point the ship towards maneuver node? And the same pilot does not have "skills" to access the new Deep Space Network information, because for that you need an "engineer"? In Career game it was much easier (in terms of playing time and amount of player actions) to get to, say, Duna in KSP-0.90 than now. Unfortunately, this choice is almost not a choice at all, because expanding "outwards", that is adding content in terms of more capable parts (think KSPI here), more space (additional planets, other solar systems) is not an option for an offline game which is intended to be constantly developed. Our computers have only so much memory and processing power. Mods like TCA, MJ and KSPI are definitely on the other side of that choice. They allow you to make hard things easier, which in its turn allows you to achieve more ambitious goals. But by doing so they bring the ultimate end of your game closer (remember the end of the Truman Show?). So I doubt they will ever be a part of the stock.

[Seeker89]

I have a few questions.... 

Is there a way to target waypoints and fly to the waypoint? like accepting that mission and flying to it? or using waypoint manger?

Is there a simple way to have tech at the start node? without going through the TCAtechtree.cfg and changing them all to start? could I use an MM to make it patch friendly?

How does this mod work with servo mods? like using an engine that has VTOL mode and a normal mode? 

And lastly I'm still a bit lost on the Engine modes, and I can't wrap my brain around when to use what. Could someone like take a screen shot of a craft and have arrows and tell me which one to use? Please?

 

Seeker89

[allista]

3 minutes ago, Seeker89 said:

I have a few questions.... 

Is there a way to target waypoints and fly to the waypoint? like accepting that mission and flying to it? or using waypoint manger?

Is there a simple way to have tech at the start node? without going through the TCAtechtree.cfg and changing them all to start? could I use an MM to make it patch friendly?

How does this mod work with servo mods? like using an engine that has VTOL mode and a normal mode? 

And lastly I'm still a bit lost on the Engine modes, and I can't wrap my brain around when to use what. Could someone like take a screen shot of a craft and have arrows and tell me which one to use? Please?

 

Seeker89

1) Yep, in the list of waypoints each waypoint name is a button. Push it to set a waypoint as current target of your ship. You then may use "Go To" autopilot to fly directly to it.

2) Wait, you want to play career, but have all the TCA at the start? Why?  Anyway, there's no other way than to edit TCAtechtree.cfg, and for that you'd better use MM patch. Luckily for you this file is programmatically generated, so all the module names start with TCAModule, and the main subsystem is simply called ThrottleControlledAvionics, so you'll need only two MM @PART patches to do it.

3) Without any trouble. TCA uses realtime engines' thrust vectors, so if an engine is moved, rotated, blown up or otherwise changed, TCA will adapt.

4) Oh boy... I feel I've done something terribly wrong with these modes  But I don't really know how to implement this. If you post a screenshot of your craft(s), I'll tag the engines with modes as I think best. Hope that'll help...

 

[Seeker89]

1 hour ago, allista said:

1) Yep, in the list of waypoints each waypoint name is a button. Push it to set a waypoint as current target of your ship. You then may use "Go To" autopilot to fly directly to it.

2) Wait, you want to play career, but have all the TCA at the start? Why?  Anyway, there's no other way than to edit TCAtechtree.cfg, and for that you'd better use MM patch. Luckily for you this file is programmatically generated, so all the module names start with TCAModule, and the main subsystem is simply called ThrottleControlledAvionics, so you'll need only two MM @PART patches to do it.

3) Without any trouble. TCA uses realtime engines' thrust vectors, so if an engine is moved, rotated, blown up or otherwise changed, TCA will adapt.

4) Oh boy... I feel I've done something terribly wrong with these modes  But I don't really know how to implement this. If you post a screenshot of your craft(s), I'll tag the engines with modes as I think best. Hope that'll help...

 

I can't seem to get my pictures to capture... how about this.... I normally just leave any engine pointed down at default. But I don't know what to do with engines that are pointing another way. And it's mostly like just me.. 

 

[allista]

4 hours ago, Seeker89 said:

I can't seem to get my pictures to capture... how about this.... I normally just leave any engine pointed down at default. But I don't know what to do with engines that are pointing another way. And it's mostly like just me.. 

 

If you're meaning a VTOL setup with some engines pointing downward, and some pointing laterally, then down = "Thrust & Maneuver" (default), horizontal = "Manual".

"Maneuver" -- act like RCS.

"Balanced" -- only meaningful for a group of engines, not for a single one. A "Balanced" group will not produce any torque; it will not react on user input.

"UnBalanced" -- mostly useful for main rocket engines which are in line with the CoM, so no need to balance them at all.

Edited October 16, 2016 by allista

[FirroSeranel]

1 hour ago, Seeker89 said:

I can't seem to get my pictures to capture... how about this.... I normally just leave any engine pointed down at default. But I don't know what to do with engines that are pointing another way. And it's mostly like just me.. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, let me see if I can explain.

Category 1: An engine whose thrust axis lines up with the ship's CoM, and whose primary purpose is keeping the ship either A: hovering above the ground, or B: accelerating along a maneuver node, you want to use "Thrust".

 

For an engine whose thrust axis is in the same direction as your main hover/acceleration engine, but off-axis so it can apply a rotational torque to the craft,  you have two options:

Category 2: If it is a sufficiently large and efficient engine that you wish to also use it to help hovering or accelerating, and there are two or more of them in a symmetrical pattern around the CoM along their thrust axis , then you'll want Thrust + Maneuver.

Category 3: If they are small engines that you intend to use like more powerful versions of RCA thrusters (i.e. only have them fire to rotate the ship or translate it in directions other than the primary thrust direction), then you want Maneuver.

Note that you can build a fully capable VTOL with any -two- of these categories.

For example:

• Option 1: One large, central engine to keep the shift aloft, set on Thrust (or Unbalanced), with multiple small maneuvering thrusters on Maneuver. This will perform and handle just like a normal craft with one engine plus RCS thrusters, only much more powerful.

 

• Option 2: One large, central engine to keep the ship aloft, set on Thrust (or Unbalanced), with several medium-sized engines pointing the same direction but far from the Center of Mass, that will help the main engine keep the ship aloft but also turn it, set on Thrust + Maneuver. This will handle okayish, with much more maneuverability than just an engine and RCS, but there are certain things it won't be able to do, like high-performance maneuvering near the ground.

 

• Option 3: Several medium-sized engines that are intended to both keep the ship aloft and rotate it as needed, set on Thrust + Maneuver, plus smaller maneuvering thrusters to aid in rotation, stability, and translation, set on Maneuver. This will have excellent performance in all situations, so long as the Thrust + Maneuver engines each individually provide a TWR of at least 0.5 (for a total of 2.0 min)

 

• Option 4: It is also possible (but less efficient) to just have several medium-sized engines far from the CoM (but balanced so their CoT is coaxial to the CoM), set to Thrust + Maneuver. This will handle like a drunken chicken and probably crash unless you're very, very careful, only use TCA to control the ship, and never change its orders when it's anywhere even remotely close to the ground.

P.S. I tried really really hard to just insert pics into the post, but it just blinked at me and did nothing at all. *stares blankly at post editor "Insert other media" widget*

Edited October 16, 2016 by FirroSeranel

[Seeker89]

1 hour ago, allista said:

If you're meaning a VTOL setup with some engines pointing downward, and some pointing laterally, then down = "Thrust" (default), horizontal = "Manual".

"Maneuver" -- act like RCS.

"Balanced" -- only meaningful for a group of engines, not for a single one. A "Balanced" group will not produce any torque; it will not react on user input.

"UnBalanced" -- mostly useful for main rocket engines which are in line with the CoM, so no need to balance them at all.

That makes much more sense.. thank you. 

 

36 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said:

Hmm, let me see if I can explain.

Category 1: An engine whose thrust axis lines up with the ship's CoM, and whose primary purpose is keeping the ship either A: hovering above the ground, or B: accelerating along a maneuver node, you want to use "Thrust".

 

For an engine whose thrust axis is in the same direction as your main hover/acceleration engine, but off-axis so it can apply a rotational torque to the craft,  you have two options:

Category 2: If it is a sufficiently large and efficient engine that you wish to also use it to help hovering or accelerating, and there are two or more of them in a symmetrical pattern around the CoM along their thrust axis , then you'll want Thrust + Maneuver.

Category 3: If they are small engines that you intend to use like more powerful versions of RCA thrusters (i.e. only have them fire to rotate the ship or translate it in directions other than the primary thrust direction), then you want Maneuver.

Note that you can build a fully capable VTOL with any -two- of these categories.

For example:

• Option 1: One large, central engine to keep the shift aloft, set on Thrust (or Unbalanced), with multiple small maneuvering thrusters on Maneuver. This will perform and handle just like a normal craft with one engine plus RCS thrusters, only much more powerful.

 

• Option 2: One large, central engine to keep the ship aloft, set on Thrust (or Unbalanced), with several medium-sized engines pointing the same direction but far from the Center of Mass, that will help the main engine keep the ship aloft but also turn it, set on Thrust + Maneuver. This will handle okayish, with much more maneuverability than just an engine and RCS, but there are certain things it won't be able to do, like high-performance maneuvering near the ground.

 

• Option 3: Several medium-sized engines that are intended to both keep the ship aloft and rotate it as needed, set on Thrust + Maneuver, plus smaller maneuvering thrusters to aid in rotation, stability, and translation, set on Maneuver. This will have excellent performance in all situations, so long as the Thrust + Maneuver engines each individually provide a TWR of at least 0.5 (for a total of 2.0 min)

 

• Option 4: It is also possible (but less efficient) to just have several medium-sized engines far from the CoM (but balanced so their CoT is coaxial to the CoM), set to Thrust + Maneuver. This will handle like a drunken chicken and probably crash unless you're very, very careful, only use TCA to control the ship, and never change its orders when it's anywhere even remotely close to the ground.

P.S. I tried really really hard to just insert pics into the post, but it just blinked at me and did nothing at all. *stares blankly at post editor "Insert other media" widget*

The pictures were just what I needed. Maybe Allista could integrate them into the wiki. 

So what would you guys do for shuttles? lets go stock... how about the Dynawing? and the Slim Shuttle?

[FirroSeranel]

20 minutes ago, Seeker89 said:

That makes much more sense.. thank you. 

 

The pictures were just what I needed. Maybe Allista could integrate them into the wiki. 

So what would you guys do for shuttles? lets go stock... how about the Dynawing? and the Slim Shuttle?

 

 

You're welcome!

Well, to make a shuttle a VTOL, it would depend on exactly what you intend to do with it. Making it capable of lifting off on a heavy-gravity world like Kerbin or Eve would take a lot of modification... probably at least a couple of pretty powerful (at zero velocity) downward-facing jet engines, or ducted fans (if you have any from mods) in the wings, lined up with the CoM, set on Balanced (jet engines don't respond fast enough to be set on Maneuver of any kind), and then some small but efficient rocket engines or hypergolic engines at the tips of the wings, and near the nose and tail, set on Maneuver, facing downward for pitch and roll authority, and then maybe some very small thrusters (RCS or engines) pointed in other directions and set on Maneuver, to give yaw authority. But by the time you do all that, you'll have added so much weight and so many parts jutting out, that you'll have pretty significantly altered its aerodynamics and weight, and reduced its dV.

If you want it to take off like the Space Shuttle, land like a spaceplane on a runway, but be able to take off and land in VTOL mode on a low-gravity body like Duna, Minmus, or the Mun, that's a lot easier. I'd probably put maybe six modest downward-facing engines on it, two on either side of the nose, two on either side of the tail, and two at each wing as far out as you can get them and still line them up with the CoM, set them on Default, and call it a day. Spiders or Ants would probably be sufficient for Minmus, maybe Twitches for Mun, or Thuds for Duna.

Edit: Note that you'll still need to make the approach and main deceleration burn facing retrograde in surface mode, just like a rocket, then switch to VTOL mode when you're near the ground. To actually decelerate with the VTOL engines, you'd need to scale them up appropriately.

You can still do the same thing without TCA or the extra engines, by coming down tail-first, hovering just above the ground, and then cutting engines and pitching down hard to rotate belly-down before you hit the ground... you just look like a beached whale doing it, and you have to find a hill to take off again from, like driving off a giant ramp and never coming down. TCA and the extra engines make it graceful and controlled, and let you maneuver a little to a more precise landing spot.

Edited October 16, 2016 by FirroSeranel

[LordKael]

So, I'm not fully clear on what to put into my Gamedata folder. anybody able to help me out? Currently, I have the entire "Throttle Controlled Avionics-master" folder in my Gamedata folder, but the mod is not showing  up in game. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I am running KSP 1.2, and the newest version of TCA from this thread.

Edited October 17, 2016 by LordKael

[goldenpsp]

16 minutes ago, LordKael said:

So, I'm not fully clear on what to put into my Gamedata folder. anybody able to help me out? Currently, I have the entire "Throttle Controlled Avionics-master" folder in my Gamedata folder, but the mod is not showing  up in game. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I am running KSP 1.2, and the newest version of TCA from this thread.

Sounds like you downloaded the source code, not the release.  it looks like the latest release was put up on spacedock but the release isn't present on github.

[LordKael]

9 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Sounds like you downloaded the source code, not the release.  it looks like the latest release was put up on spacedock but the release isn't present on github.

Thank you good sir