[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[FirroSeranel]

15 hours ago, allista said:

VTOL Assist -- yes, it explicitly uses Stop.

Level -- no, it only uses attitude control.

 

 

Okay, so I've pretty well tracked this down. Level definitely does set manual engine throttles to zero. However, the manual engine throttle control works properly with TSAS settings.

The Follow Route and Land autopilots actually do use the manual engine though, which is interesting and cool.

Edited October 20, 2016 by FirroSeranel

[allista]

6 hours ago, FirroSeranel said:

Okay, so I've pretty well tracked this down. Level definitely does set manual engine throttles to zero. However, the manual engine throttle control works properly with TSAS settings.

The Follow Route and Land autopilots actually do use the manual engine though, which is interesting and cool.

Yep, thanks. Fixed it.

What I can't decide, though, is if the Level should take into account the thrust of manual engines. Currently it does. Which means that if you set some manual engine to thrust, the ship will turn so that the total thrust is still pointed to the ground. But maybe it shouldn't? I don't understand the use-cases for Level, except the ones that arise from internal use by other autopilots.

[g_BonE]

So... how would I go about making the vtol engine from quiztech pack work? it's got a horizontal /vertical mode switch and trust reversal all of which can be toggled by right click or via action group. id like to have it in horizontal mode until a certain height is reached and then toggle it to vertical (ie. forward)  mode. is that some how achievable via tca engine profiles? 

[Bit Fiddler]

oh and speaking of thrust reversal...  I was going to ask this the other day.   if our engines support this could you make your mod use it for easier maneuver control?  can switch the engine to reverse thrust rather than spin the craft around to slow it down....

[cascinova]

what an amazing mod! I didn't think i would actually succeed at building a real operable VTOL until I tried your mod, thank you! 

[allista]

2 hours ago, Bit Fiddler said:

oh and speaking of thrust reversal...  I was going to ask this the other day.   if our engines support this could you make your mod use it for easier maneuver control?  can switch the engine to reverse thrust rather than spin the craft around to slow it down....

I wish it was that simple. From the moment the reverse appeared in the game I wanted to use it in TCA. Unfortunately, the way it is implemented is... well... not so useful for modders. The reverse is just an animation that flips the thrust transform of an engine. And it is actuated by the ModuleAnimateGeneric, not by ModuleEngines; in fact, the engine itself has no idea if it is reversed or not. And AnimateGeneric is, as the name implies, a generic module which, apart from the action names (which are just strings), provides no indication as to what exactly does it animate.

So TCA cannot robustly know if an engine is in reverse or not, nor can it control the process in general.

But, as with other thrust transform changes, reverse is accounted for, when it is activated by the user.

Edited October 21, 2016 by allista

[Bit Fiddler]

oh well...   no big deal

lol that is why I am an engineer IRL.  I like to solve problems, so I am not to worried.  I will just build with what I have.

[allista]

2 hours ago, g_BonE said:

So... how would I go about making the vtol engine from quiztech pack work? it's got a horizontal /vertical mode switch and trust reversal all of which can be toggled by right click or via action group. id like to have it in horizontal mode until a certain height is reached and then toggle it to vertical (ie. forward)  mode. is that some how achievable via tca engine profiles? 

The height part may be actuated by macros; and in the next release there will be two macros controlling action groups.

Aside from that, the simplest way to do it manually through the action groups is like this:

• VTOL mode: TCA is enabled, engines thrusting downward and are set to Thrust&Maneuver.
• Plane mode: TCA is disabled, engines thrusting horizontally and are not controlled by TCA.

All you need to do is to set all these on a single action group that would then toggle between the described states.

4 minutes ago, Bit Fiddler said:

oh well...   no big deal

lol that is why I am an engineer IRL.  I like to solve problems, so I am not to worried.  I will just build with what I have.

And I'm a microbiologist. Can you imagine? 

Edited October 21, 2016 by allista

[Bit Fiddler]

lol micro biologist..  go finish up the biomass mod for me....

oh and a request...  messing with the follow terrain feature now...  and it would be nice if the "distance prior" for elevation changes was calculated based on speed.  so if moving slow the altitude change would happen mere feet before the hill, while at higher speeds it would happen sooner for safety reasons as it does now.  it already does the T/W calc.  could then use that to get a response time...  then let the user select a slider for what % of the "safty net" to use.    lol I want true NOE flight for my small nimble craft.

[Bit Fiddler]

another request...  can you make your waypoint system compatible with the WP manager mod?  so your WP lists are one and the same?   then if I set WP with WP manager I can tell your flight computer to then use them.

 

 

EDIT:

hmm sorry for double post  I guess the "merge reply" feature is on a timer...

Edited October 21, 2016 by Bit Fiddler

[Beetlecat]

13 minutes ago, Bit Fiddler said:

another request...  can you make your waypoint system compatible with the WP manager mod?  so your WP lists are one and the same?   then if I set WP with WP manager I can tell your flight computer to then use them.

My sense is that it would be complicated, but awesome.

[allista]

1 hour ago, Bit Fiddler said:

lol micro biologist..  go finish up the biomass mod for me....

oh and a request...  messing with the follow terrain feature now...  and it would be nice if the "distance prior" for elevation changes was calculated based on speed.  so if moving slow the altitude change would happen mere feet before the hill, while at higher speeds it would happen sooner for safety reasons as it does now.  it already does the T/W calc.  could then use that to get a response time...  then let the user select a slider for what % of the "safty net" to use.    lol I want true NOE flight for my small nimble craft.

What you ask is already there, except for the user setting. The calculations the Radar performs are quite complicated and are meant to be as safe as possible for any ship. So in some cases the caution with which the ship handles obstacles may seem a little redundant, but remember that TCA is not a deep-learned neural network that sees what you see. There's only so much a threshold-logic system can do without sacrificing robustness. 

40 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

My sense is that it would be complicated, but awesome.

Well, if I remember correctly, stock waypoints appeared in the game after I had to make mine; or at least I wasn't aware of them?

Anyways, I could try to interface my waypoints with the stock waypoint system; from the first glance it seems that this would allow WPM to at least see TCA's waypoints. But I don't know when I will have time for this. Not a priority at the moment...

[Bit Fiddler]

well then never mind...  lol I guess I was just flying too fast for the system to deal with it and it performed the climb sooner than I was expecting.    but hey so far I am really liking this mod.   I have been looking at it for quite some time , but never used it before.  but I started messing with your other mod and it prompted me to go look at this one when I realized it was yours.

 

do not mind me...  ill go back to making my next VTOL

[FirroSeranel]

16 hours ago, allista said:

Yep, thanks. Fixed it.

What I can't decide, though, is if the Level should take into account the thrust of manual engines. Currently it does. Which means that if you set some manual engine to thrust, the ship will turn so that the total thrust is still pointed to the ground. But maybe it shouldn't? I don't understand the use-cases for Level, except the ones that arise from internal use by other autopilots.

 

No, it definitely should not take that thrust into account.

The use case I want it for (and most people I would imagine) is to have a hybrid design, with VTOL engines to keep the ship aloft, with ventral thrust vector, and then manual control engine(s) pointed aft (and possibly fore for braking) for movement. This is for VTOL flight on bodies with atmosphere. Vacuum bodies can just alter the ship's orientation and use the VTOL engines to execute maneuvers. In an atmosphere however, that introduces huge inefficiencies due to aerodynamics.

If Level didn't take into account the manual controlled engines' thrust, then I could keep Level on, with the aft engine also on, and use the VTOL engines as the equivalent of wings.

Plus, it kind of says it in the name

"Level" to me, means "Keep my ship level in the pitch and roll directions, so it's parallel to the ground in both directions." If you instead have it account for the manual thrust engines, then when I hit "Level", instead of remaining in a level attitude, it'll suddenly pitch up 30°, which... isn't even remotely close to level.

Anyway, that's how I think of it.

Also, you say you fixed it, but I don't see a new version available. How does one acquire said fix?

[allista]

2 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said:

No, it definitely should not take that thrust into account.

The use case I want it for (and most people I would imagine) is to have a hybrid design, with VTOL engines to keep the ship aloft, with ventral thrust vector, and then manual control engine(s) pointed aft (and possibly fore for braking) for movement. This is for VTOL flight on bodies with atmosphere. Vacuum bodies can just alter the ship's orientation and use the VTOL engines to execute maneuvers. In an atmosphere however, that introduces huge inefficiencies due to aerodynamics.

If Level didn't take into account the manual controlled engines' thrust, then I could keep Level on, with the aft engine also on, and use the VTOL engines as the equivalent of wings.

Plus, it kind of says it in the name

"Level" to me, means "Keep my ship level in the pitch and roll directions, so it's parallel to the ground in both directions." If you instead have it account for the manual thrust engines, then when I hit "Level", instead of remaining in a level attitude, it'll suddenly pitch up 30°, which... isn't even remotely close to level.

Anyway, that's how I think of it.

Also, you say you fixed it, but I don't see a new version available. How does one acquire said fix?

Ok. I think I agree with this. Will make the change.

Hm... one will be able to acquire it as soon as this one will finish all the fixes and prepare the common update of both TCA and ConfigurableContainers (and of the Hangar for that matter). On Sunday, I hope! 

[FirroSeranel]

So... Landing Autopilot is working pretty well.

I did just have it crash a ship because I was landing inside a crater, and it hit the downward slope just past the crater's lip. Actually it was the Jump To autopilot, but I assume once it performs the initial burn to set the parabolic trajectory, it just calls the Landing autopilot?

[Seeker89]

Hmm.... I have a large request... could you make a video on the use of the macros? I know how much you love videos. 

 

[g_BonE]

thanks for the Tips regarding vtol engine switching, cant wait for the New Release with Action Group Support. 

Quick question: us there a way to use waypoint Manager waypoints as target for the goto Mode of tca? 

[allista]

6 hours ago, FirroSeranel said:

So... Landing Autopilot is working pretty well.

I did just have it crash a ship because I was landing inside a crater, and it hit the downward slope just past the crater's lip. Actually it was the Jump To autopilot, but I assume once it performs the initial burn to set the parabolic trajectory, it just calls the Landing autopilot?

Your assumption is correct. What bothers me is that it is, of course, shouldn't crash in that way: Landing autopilot scans its path for obstacles and tries to make course adjustments.

Wait... but you said "past the crater's lip"? Not the lip itself? This makes no sense at all. Where was the target point then, before or after the point it crashed into? 

*better yet, could you repeat it and capture the video? Worth a million words to me! 

18 minutes ago, g_BonE said:

thanks for the Tips regarding vtol engine switching, cant wait for the New Release with Action Group Support. 

Quick question: us there a way to use waypoint Manager waypoints as target for the goto Mode of tca? 

Don't know, never used it. Are these waypoints targetable? I mean, can you set them as targets to a ship, like double-clicking another ship? If so, then you can. If not, then not without coding from my end...

3 hours ago, Seeker89 said:

Hmm.... I have a large request... could you make a video on the use of the macros? I know how much you love videos. 

Along with several other tutorial videos. Yes.

[g_BonE]

no, unfortunately those waypoints are an overlay, you can click on them which activates a navigation readout but not really target them like a craft. I would be just a nice to have thing to make those contracts a little easier. 

[allista]

16 minutes ago, g_BonE said:

no, unfortunately those waypoints are an overlay, you can click on them which activates a navigation readout but not really target them like a craft. I would be just a nice to have thing to make those contracts a little easier. 

I'll see what I can do about it...

[FirroSeranel]

40 minutes ago, allista said:

Your assumption is correct. What bothers me is that it is, of course, shouldn't crash in that way: Landing autopilot scans its path for obstacles and tries to make course adjustments.

Wait... but you said "past the crater's lip"? Not the lip itself? This makes no sense at all. Where was the target point then, before or after the point it crashed into? 

*better yet, could you repeat it and capture the video? Worth a million words to me! 

1

I can try. I was doing a parabolic jump from the Highlands east of the East Crater, into the deepest mini-crater inside the East Crater. The target was right at the lowest point, in the 'bowl', though it wasn't just a simple crater; it had a sort of 'mountain' that formed its far side.

But yes, it crashed -past- the lip, about a third of the way down, on a rather steep downward slope. It was quite surprising, really. My head sort of slowly tilted as the ship managed to clip it with its rear engine, then each part exploded in a long sequence as it touched ground and exploded at an extremely shallow angle.

Getting it to do it again, though... well, we'll see. I'll try once or twice, and see what happens.

[Bit Fiddler]

we were talking about this earlier and I never got around to posting an idea I had for this.   if you scan for WPM to be installed and if it is just use it out right for your WP system.  and if not then revert to the existing WP system you have now.  this may be easier than trying to "merge" them. SCANSAT and  MJ also had a wp and route follow system, so if we got all 3 of these mods on board with one another and all using the same "internals" from WPM that would be great.  I think SCANSAT is already compatible with MJ but it has been a while since I messed with them.

one thing I really like about the WP system in TCA is the ability to click on the ground and drop a WP in flight mode.  as far as I recall this is not possible in WPM.  so there is some give and take that would be nice from all of these mods.  but it would sure be nice if they all get along.   WPM, MJ, SCANSAT I know are very big mods in the community, and TCA seems to fairly popular as well.  so it would just be nice if all of them could just get along...

Edited October 22, 2016 by Bit Fiddler

[FirroSeranel]

1 hour ago, FirroSeranel said:

I can try. I was doing a parabolic jump from the Highlands east of the East Crater, into the deepest mini-crater inside the East Crater. The target was right at the lowest point, in the 'bowl', though it wasn't just a simple crater; it had a sort of 'mountain' that formed its far side.

But yes, it crashed -past- the lip, about a third of the way down, on a rather steep downward slope. It was quite surprising, really. My head sort of slowly tilted as the ship managed to clip it with its rear engine, then each part exploded in a long sequence as it touched ground and exploded at an extremely shallow angle.

Getting it to do it again, though... well, we'll see. I'll try once or twice, and see what happens.

 

 

Well, it crashed on the first try. Not the same crash though. I almost thought I'd worked it out, that it was that my ship is so long that it might have underestimated the length or something, and thus dragged the tail along the ground at 120 m/s.

But no... this time it just flat-out pancaked into the ground at 230-ish. And that was -after- it landed this very same ship, starting with the very same resource load, from orbit (It refueled itself after landing with mining equipment). Something about the parabolic jump made it crash. I suspect it was the warp right before the deceleration burn, perhaps?

Video is coming... still rendering and uploading.

Edited October 22, 2016 by FirroSeranel

[FirroSeranel]