[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[Beetlecat]

19 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

I just uploaded a picture just above your post. I have Pilot's Assistant, but it is deactivated during flight with TCA.

That little craft seems like it would be perfect for this mod. I wonder if it simply has *too much* control authority. Have you tried using TCA's autopilot / waypoint mode?

I'm curious about trying it out later -- whipping up a similar craft shouldn't be a problem.

[Jarin]

27 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

Sure thing. Here it is. Very basic, just for scouting mountains near KSC.

I never use angled engines, but TCA supposedly handles them fine. Can you get a screenshot of the TCA panel, with engine settings? 

I'm going to toss together a duplicate craft to see if I can get it to spin out like you're describing. Any further details to assist in reproducing the issue?

[aluc24]

@Beetlecat , @Jarin , thanks for looking into it. There's nothing special about this craft, it is as you see it. Oh, the small fuel tanks are set to Liquid fuel type only (with InterstellarFuelSwitch), but that should not affect anything.

I am very early into the career, so I have only unlocked Attitude Control, Propulsion Control and Vertical Speed Control modules. Still, I believe Attitude and Propulsion alone should keep the orientation of the craft stable...

[Jarin]

11 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

 have only unlocked Attitude Control, Propulsion Control and Vertical Speed Control modules.

Are you using time-warp in flight? That's the only way I've been able to make the craft flip out in testing so far. Going to toss it into a cheaty career and test it with limited unlocks next.

Preliminary conclusion: Lack of rotational authority. Stick a reaction wheel on the back of it and it won't even flip in time-warp.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Jarin

[aluc24]

Just now, Jarin said:

Are you using time-warp in flight? That's the only way I've been able to make the craft flip out in testing so far. Going to toss it into a cheaty career and test it with limited unlocks next.

No, no warp... How do you control it? I just enable TCA SAS, and then nudge WASD slightly... And then it starts wobbling until it crashes. Alright, let me know of your results

[Jarin]

Just now, aluc24 said:

TCA SAS, and then nudge WASD slightly... And then it starts wobbling until it crashes.

Okay, I'm not seeing anything like this. I can throw this thing all over the place, mashing WASD for all I'm worth and it just hovers sedately around KSC. Maybe you don't have the right TCA tech yet. I'll let you know.

[aluc24]

2 minutes ago, Jarin said:

Okay, I'm not seeing anything like this. I can throw this thing all over the place, mashing WASD for all I'm worth and it just hovers sedately around KSC. Maybe you don't have the right TCA tech yet. I'll let you know.

One thing I forgot to mention. I have SETI installed, which nerfs reaction control wheels. This pod can barely control attitude on it's own, so it all depends on the engines. You might want to try and disable reaction wheels on your craft when you test.

[Jarin]

14 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

This pod can barely control attitude on it's own, so it all depends on the engines.

And upon further testing, it seems you just simply lack the TCA tech to balance the engines properly. This is what I unlocked for initial testing:

And yeah, it's impossible to control.

Unlocked VTOL assist and Horizontal Thrust Control:

And it's a lot easier to fly. Make sure you have "stop" or "level" selected in the TCA mode. It's still entirely possible to crash like this (and will be until you get Specialized Control at the 160 tier), but it's flyable. Just don't push it too far, and it can autocorrect.

Edit: Scratch that, "level" doesn't help much. Stick with "stop".

Edited January 9, 2017 by Jarin

[aluc24]

3 minutes ago, Jarin said:

And upon further testing, it seems you just simply lack the TCA tech to balance the engines properly. This is what I unlocked for initial testing:

And yeah, it's impossible to control.

Unlocked VTOL assist and Horizontal Thrust Control:

And it's a lot easier to fly. Make sure you have "stop" or "level" selected in the TCA mode. It's still entirely possible to crash like this (and will be until you get Specialized Control at the 160 tier), but it's flyable. Just don't push it too far, and it can autocorrect.

I see! I didn't figure that TCA could be so modular to improve even the simplest flight. Have you tried flying with reaction control wheels disabled? Is it still controllable?

[Jarin]

3 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

Have you tried flying with reaction control wheels disabled? Is it still controllable?

Okay, I tried stepping down reaction wheel control authority to see how low it could go. It looks like you're SOL below 50%. Tested with RCS, but TCA doesn't seem to use RCS blocks for stabilizing, so no luck there. The wheesley just doesn't have the throttle response time to be the sole source of control. I tried using Thuds alongside the Wheesleys, and it worked a lot better, but that does terrible things to your fuel efficiency, obviously. I tried pushing for the higher tech tiers to get the proper VTOL control modules, but that didn't do much. Without engines with faster throttle response, or some kind of rotation control, I don't think you're going to be flying any VTOLs any time soon. I'd look for modded air maneuvering engines with rapid throttle response maybe?

[aluc24]

2 minutes ago, Jarin said:

Okay, I tried stepping down reaction wheel control authority to see how low it could go. It looks like you're SOL below 50%. Tested with RCS, but TCA doesn't seem to use RCS blocks for stabilizing, so no luck there. The wheesley just doesn't have the throttle response time to be the sole source of control. I tried using Thuds alongside the Wheesleys, and it worked a lot better, but that does terrible things to your fuel efficiency, obviously. I tried pushing for the higher tech tiers to get the proper VTOL control modules, but that didn't do much. Without engines with faster throttle response, or some kind of rotation control, I don't think you're going to be flying any VTOLs any time soon. I'd look for modded air maneuvering engines with rapid throttle response maybe?

I see... Well, that's a pity, but it does make sense. No problem, I'll just unlock stronger reaction wheels then  Thank you a lot for scouting this out.

[allista]

1 hour ago, aluc24 said:

I just uploaded a picture just above your post. I have Pilot's Assistant, but it is deactivated during flight with TCA.

Yep, to use jets in VTOL mode TCA does often need a little help of fast-response torque provider like reaction wheel.

But there's an option to go on RCS only: you can set your jets to Balanced Thrust mode. Thus, they won't respond to control input, but will remain balanced all the time. Then, in order to control attitude, you'll use RCS.

19 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

I see... Well, that's a pity, but it does make sense. No problem, I'll just unlock stronger reaction wheels then  Thank you a lot for scouting this out.

Also, do you use VTOL Control mode in advanced pane? It'll help you considerably with such a craft.

[aluc24]

1 minute ago, allista said:

Yep, to use jets in VTOL mode TCA does often need a little help of fast-response torque provider like reaction wheel.

But there's an option to go on RCS only: you can set your jets to Balanced Thrust mode. Thus, they won't respond to control input, but will remain balanced all the time. Then, in order to control attitude, you'll use RCS.

Very nice idea. Thanks. I will try it out.

[allista]

2 hours ago, Mandella said:

One possible bug, one feature request.

In Science Career mode, it appears that all the flight control elements are automatically unlocked, even though they appear in tech nodes that have not been reached yet.

And the feature request: Is it possible to make the control box pop-up vertical (rather like MechJeb)? It would fit on current 9:16 ration screens a bit better, at least on my layout. Another option would be for some sort of "mini" mode, where maybe only the currently running flight control program could be visible.

And thanks again for such a great mod -- as far as I know, your's is the only one that allows simple sub-orbital flights.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the terminology  Which flight control elements are unlocked before their nodes? And what is the control box pop-up?

As for you request, beleive me or not, I'm working on it right now; only on larger scale. As per previous requests, discussions and the poll results, I've finally started the UI overhaul. In particular, I will be splitting the interface into a set of floating control windows that could be rearranged throughout the screen to imitate a HUD; also, I will provide means to disable portions of TCA on per-craft basis to decrease the number of controls (why, this copter does not need orbital autopilots, does it?). You can get a feeling of what's to come with this mock-up:

 

[Mandella]

Arg.. Not at my gaming machine, so working from memory.

By control box I just mean the UI menu that comes up when I click the TCA button. The one that has all the control buttons on it. And it looks like your UI overhaul is going to take care of that feature request and more, so no need to worry about that!

As for the flight control elements, when in Science Career mode (which is the halfway mode between full sandbox and career -- you still have to gain Science to unlock tech nodes but nothing costs money), I select a craft and activate TCA. On the resulting menu I have access to all the buttons (and they appear to work). For instance, even though I have not yet unlocked Jump To (for suborbital hops) on my tech tree I just used it successfully on Mun today.

If this is not reproducible on your end I'll post some screenshots and logs and such, but I'll have to wait til tomorrow...

It is also possible that I have simply confused myself and am doing it wrong, in which case that discovery will also have to wait until tomorrow...

[allista]

13 hours ago, Mandella said:

Arg.. Not at my gaming machine, so working from memory.

By control box I just mean the UI menu that comes up when I click the TCA button. The one that has all the control buttons on it. And it looks like your UI overhaul is going to take care of that feature request and more, so no need to worry about that!

As for the flight control elements, when in Science Career mode (which is the halfway mode between full sandbox and career -- you still have to gain Science to unlock tech nodes but nothing costs money), I select a craft and activate TCA. On the resulting menu I have access to all the buttons (and they appear to work). For instance, even though I have not yet unlocked Jump To (for suborbital hops) on my tech tree I just used it successfully on Mun today.

If this is not reproducible on your end I'll post some screenshots and logs and such, but I'll have to wait til tomorrow...

It is also possible that I have simply confused myself and am doing it wrong, in which case that discovery will also have to wait until tomorrow...

Ah, I see why this happens in Science Career. Fixed it, thanks!

[Mandella]

While we're in feature feedback mode...

What do you think about dropping the unlock nodes down by maybe one level? I can build craft that would benefit from TCA a long time before actually being able to *use* TCA in the current design.

[allista]

30 minutes ago, Mandella said:

While we're in feature feedback mode...

What do you think about dropping the unlock nodes down by maybe one level? I can build craft that would benefit from TCA a long time before actually being able to *use* TCA in the current design.

It's not that simple; current design is balanced against the stock TechTree nodes' content, dependencies and titles. It would be strange to have, say, basic TCA subsystem in Engineering101, or Vertical Speed Control in Survivability.

So I say, draw me a TechTree with TCA modules as you see fit, and we'll discuss it.

[democedes]

TCA keeps switching itself from 'Vertical' mode to 'Stop' mode mid-flight.  How do I keep it from switching modes on me?  Or is there an easier was to do a short, controlled hop on a large lumbering rocket?

Long version:  I use TCA's Vertical Speed Control in Vertical mode on the Moon to launch a rocket a few meters up, bring it to a hover, scoot over a few meters and then set back down.  Vertical mode lets me gently nudge the nose in the direction I want to go.  It fights me to keep the ship vertical, which is what I want.  However, sometimes TCA switches itself into Stop mode while I moving horizontally, which is bad.  Stop mode is too heavy handed for the size of rockets I am flying.  By the time I get it back into Vertical mode, the rocket is already 20° off vertical and picking up speed.

Any suggestions would be appriciated!

[allista]

2 hours ago, democedes said:

TCA keeps switching itself from 'Vertical' mode to 'Stop' mode mid-flight.  How do I keep it from switching modes on me?  Or is there an easier was to do a short, controlled hop on a large lumbering rocket?

Long version:  I use TCA's Vertical Speed Control in Vertical mode on the Moon to launch a rocket a few meters up, bring it to a hover, scoot over a few meters and then set back down.  Vertical mode lets me gently nudge the nose in the direction I want to go.  It fights me to keep the ship vertical, which is what I want.  However, sometimes TCA switches itself into Stop mode while I moving horizontally, which is bad.  Stop mode is too heavy handed for the size of rockets I am flying.  By the time I get it back into Vertical mode, the rocket is already 20° off vertical and picking up speed.

Any suggestions would be appriciated!

Only two things could "suddenly" turn on the "Stop" mode: the VTOL Assist and the Flight Stabilizer. You can toggle both in advanced pane. The former turns Stop right after rocket takes off; the latter detects an "uncontrollable" rotation, i.e. when neither user nor SAS nor TCA currently control ship's attitude.

Edited January 10, 2017 by allista

[Mandella]

11 hours ago, allista said:

It's not that simple; current design is balanced against the stock TechTree nodes' content, dependencies and titles. It would be strange to have, say, basic TCA subsystem in Engineering101, or Vertical Speed Control in Survivability.

So I say, draw me a TechTree with TCA modules as you see fit, and we'll discuss it.

 

Looking over the tree again, I guess the only real change I would suggest would be to slide back the modules along the rocketry line (the top row) one column. Start at the third rank instead of the fourth, just to make them a little more accessible as they are needed.

 

 

 

[democedes]

19 hours ago, allista said:

Only two things could "suddenly" turn on the "Stop" mode: the VTOL Assist and the Flight Stabilizer. You can toggle both in advanced pane. The former turns Stop right after rocket takes off; the latter detects an "uncontrollable" rotation, i.e. when neither user nor SAS nor TCA currently control ship's attitude.

Yes, TCA was indeed set to VTOL Assist.  Thank you.  This solved my issue, though I think Valentina will be disappointed.  She seemed to like recklessly zooming back and forth just above the Moon base.

Cheers!

[Jarin]

Discovered annoying mod feature conflict today. TCA's "warp" feature for maneuver nodes overrides Kerbal Alarm Clock's "stop warp" feature for alarms. Blew past an alarm at high warp and almost lost a craft to deep space. =/

Easy to avoid if being careful, but it'd be nice if the warp feature in TCA would respect stop commands from elsewhere. If I'm madly mashing the "/" key, maybe it should disable the warp toggle instead of instantly going straight back to high warp again?

[allista]

14 minutes ago, Jarin said:

Discovered annoying mod feature conflict today. TCA's "warp" feature for maneuver nodes overrides Kerbal Alarm Clock's "stop warp" feature for alarms. Blew past an alarm at high warp and almost lost a craft to deep space. =/

Easy to avoid if being careful, but it'd be nice if the warp feature in TCA would respect stop commands from elsewhere. If I'm madly mashing the "/" key, maybe it should disable the warp toggle instead of instantly going straight back to high warp again?

Good point, thanks!

I'll think of a way to fix this.

[Jarin]

I also seem to have gotten TCA double-installed or something. Ever seen an issue like this? I'm sometimes seeing doubling in the engine control list as well.