Do ANY females/girl gamers play KSP?

[_Aramchek_]

No. This kind od argument is counterproductive. What you say would work wonders, if only we lived in a world where gender differences don't matter,

Step back and ponder for a moment, and I will represent this as effeciently as I can, because I value simplicity.

By separating people up by gender either for "positive" or "negative" aspirations, it doesn't matter..the outcome is the same.

Either side of that simply creates a division, whereas if you look at everyone as more or less "the same", casting aside gender (unless that becomes relevant to you in some way personally) has a net outcome of unifying everyone together.

Social changes do not come from social engineering or lobbying, changes in attitude lead to social changes and correcting inequity.

I would argue it's better, and more lasting to go at it from that perspective, rather than continuing down an ever increasing number of "sides" all screaming at each other, or DEMANDING each others respect.

I think that way of doing things doesn't do a thing to undermine the root causes of "isms", and the state of affairs in my country currently can bear some sad proof of that.

You can't DEMAND or FORCE people to respect each other.

[WOODY01]

Step back and ponder for a moment, and I will represent this as effeciently as I can, because I value simplicity.

By separating people up by gender either for "positive" or "negative" aspirations, it doesn't matter..the outcome is the same.

Either side of that simply creates a division, whereas if you look at everyone as more or less "the same", casting aside gender (unless that becomes relevant to you in some way personally) has a net outcome of unifying everyone together.

Social changes do not come from social engineering or lobbying, changes in attitude lead to social changes and correcting inequity.

I would argue it's better, and more lasting to go at it from that perspective, rather than continuing down an ever increasing number of "sides" all screaming at each other, or DEMANDING each others respect.

I think that way of doing things doesn't do a thing to undermine the root causes of "isms", and the state of affairs in my country currently can bear some sad proof of that.

You can't DEMAND or FORCE people to respect each other.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

Social change is effected by lobbying, social engineering, all forms of media, protest, and wars. Peoples beliefs and values as a society effect the previous and effected by the previous. It is a two way street.

The "Establishment" does not like change, history has a lot of examples, it will not change without people willing to fight for change.

[Frozen_Heart]

Back from sleeping and this thread is still going! Page 13!

Guys I think we have a new record!

[WOODY01]

Keep this thread on topic I've Warne you and now vanamode has.

Any post not identifying whether your female or male is off topic. Since gender is not important factor in enjoying the game it should be closed.

[RainDreamer]

Topic of gender and gaming tends to send things into a downward spiral these days. I say we just step back and continue playing the game.

[Sirrobert]

I am hoping with the female Kerbal coming, and hopefully being used in the advertising, that the balance will improve. I for one, welcome our female brethren. Uh, sisteren?

Wouldn't it simply be 'kin'?

[sal_vager]

Any post not identifying whether your female or male is off topic. Since gender is not important factor in enjoying the game it should be closed.

It's still civil Woody so it's fine at the present time, thank you for your concern and please remember not to backseat moderate

[JumpsterG]

What would be more interesting (and WAY less controversial) would be a holistic survey that accounts for more factors than just Male/Female.

It doesn't have to be about whose in the minority, since we fall into many different classifiers. For instance, I may be a part of the majority as far as gender is concerned (Male), but I am probably a minority when considering ethnicity (How many Russian/Puertorican mixes do you know?).

I personally would be very interested to know how many different countries, ethnicities, and favorite colors are represented here on the forums.

[Pthigrivi]

Man I don't know if it would be less controversial but Id be kind of interested too. What's funny to me is there's really shouldn't be anything inherent about this game that should bias things to the degree that they are. Like people don't expect boggle or mariokart to have a big gender disparity. At the same time, mariokart has a lot of playable female characters. Its awesome that they're including female kerbals, but I do worry things took an early hit because it was pushed so far back. I know its a big bone of contention but representation really does matter. Like imagine if instead all of the kerbals had obviously looked female, wouldn't you start to think this was a game designed for women? It's unsurprising that women might feel the same way.

Hopefully things will start to improve though. Its a great game and there are a lot of really good people here. I just hope the overall atmosphere around this stuff improves too.

[sal_vager]

It's always a problem with a game in development, "But where is X ?" "Um, but we're only at J..."

Also, girls tend to keep a low profile precisely due to the way they find themselves treated by male gamers, attitudes towards them change, expectations change, while the person has not changed anything other than make their gender known.

[zekes]

I know some who play, but only on the forums - none IRL.

And I agree to what Sal is saying. I see it, and were a female gamer I would keep it hidden as well. It's sad but it's what happens.

[_Aramchek_]

I agree with most of what you wrote.

Social change is effected by lobbying, social engineering,

I would argue that it isn't, and evidence of this is.: Even though we already have laws that SHOULD even the playing field for everyone, and those laws have been in existence for decades, all of the old prejudices STILL exist.

Social engineering has accomplished superficial changes, rather than the deep seated changes that actually move a society forward in it's thinking.

And I would also argue that in some ways social engineering has furthered the reach of old prejudices as well, brought them more to a front, when they might fade away otherwise.

[Moon Goddess]

Unless their username wasn't conspicuous.

Isn't it terrible when girls post with usernames that don't let you know their gender

Yes, there aren't many of us, but we do play.

I personally rarely visit the general discussion try to stay in the add-on forums.

[Pthigrivi]

^Haha. And to Frozen heart's earlier point, I have noticed the percentage climbing up since the poll went anonymous. A similar thing is probably happening with women who play but are under-represented on the forum.

And yeah Sal no I know, there are a ton of features that people want and Squad is a really small company. Not a criticism so much as an observation. Cool to see this getting its due now though.

[Moonfrog]

Sort of reminds me of a conversation i had with a female friend in real life which ended in her shock surprise statement of "you noticed i'm a girl now?" Still to this day i don't get why she said that.

[moronwrocket]

A more interesting question is "What other minor changes could be done to increase the playerbase for KSP?" Adding female kerbals is key, but are there other changes that could help attract gamers who don't play now? And in a way that doesn't disturb the core game itself? Being mostly a white male, my perceptions are a probably too gender normative, but maybe things like:

- Easily paintable rockets?

- Creatures on Kerbin and perhaps Duna/Laythe? They could tie in to a life support/happiness/more science mod. Considering the space program's history with animals, a little penance here would be nice.

- More places to explore on the worlds - where the destination has a draw beyond the difficulty to get there. Duna sandcastle with Kerbal slides anyone?

- Machinima capability to allow telling stories in the game? A mod with an easy to use "camera drone"?

- In trailers/demos/playthroughs, feature less the exploding rockets and more the ???

[regex]

Being mostly a white male, my perceptions are a probably too gender normative

Not to be harsh, but yes, yes they are.

Easily paintable rockets?

This would be great to get small kids into the game. It is also a really good idea for anyone, regardless of gender or age (who doesn't want a jet black jet?). This suffers from a stereotype that females are more concerned with "creative pursuits" rather than science; that science is not the important thing here.

Creatures on Kerbin and perhaps Duna/Laythe? They could tie in to a life support/happiness/more science mod. Considering the space program's history with animals, a little penance here would be nice.

Sending dogs/cats/mice/chimps to space is pretty cool, how does this tie into gender? This plays into a stereotype that females are more concerned with "cute things" rather than the science involved in sending said animals into space.

More places to explore on the worlds - where the destination has a draw beyond the difficulty to get there. Duna sandcastle with Kerbal slides anyone?

This is another pretty cool idea but you play into a stereotype of females as more concerned with "cute things" (again).

Machinima capability to allow telling stories in the game? A mod with an easy to use "camera drone"?

Because the science and sandbox isn't enough? Because females can't enjoy procedural content? Because females have to "tell stories" to enjoy a game? Why wouldn't this be overall good for getting anyone into the game?

In trailers/demos/playthroughs, feature less the exploding rockets and more the ???

Less exploding rockets is great for the game regardless, the perception of Kerbals right now is toxic to a game partially billed as a learning experience, IMO.

Most everything you mentioned above (for the reasons I imagine you are mentioning them and your qualifier as "white male") also plays into male stereotypes as well, as if males would not enjoy those things because they're "girly".

My daughter thinks she's a pirate and an astronaut, and she loves traditionally "girly" pursuits as well. When my nephew and her play there are plenty of dinosaurs, and cooking, and drawing, and pirates, and astronauts, and LEGOs, and the list goes on. Both of them enjoy all sorts of different activities and I think it's pretty sad that society/culture would have us put either of them into little "acceptable gender activity" boxes, or think that because something is pink it somehow makes it more appealing to girls and less to boys. I hope when my daughter is old enough to not wreck my work laptop slapping keys that we can explore advanced concepts such as delta-V and isp through KSP (modded, of course, because some of the basic underpinnings of the game aren't correct).

Adding female kerbals to the game is, indeed, a great step towards making women feel included, especially considering that Kerbals are strongly male-human body-typed (or whatever you call it), but I don't think KSP needs to cater to overt stereotypes in order to draw more people in. Add the features if they're good for the game, not because of a gender stereotype.

~Apologize in advance for any harshness~

[moronwrocket]

No need to apologize, it's all good.

My points weren't all necessarily for getting more females playing the game, but as the original post said "help attract gamers who don't play now". So don't necessarily assume I was painting those options with a "gurlz love to paint, hur hur"; I'd love to be able to easily personalize my rocket (Anyone see the Homeworld: Remastered PAX panel? Squeee! White male me loves those ships, the most creatively colored ships I've seen in any game) . That being said, we do live in the society we live in, and many girls are molded into the stereotypes presented into them. Sounds to me like you are saying we should write off all the girls who like pink/cute animals/storytelling? My ideas were more "let's make this attractive to them, so they don't feel like they are breaking the rules, or intruding into male-ish territory."

What I am saying is 100% the opposite of what LEGO did, I guess: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/02/04/lego-letter-girl-more-boys/5201353/

Those sets limited and reinforced the stereotype, while (I hope) my suggestions take advantage of the stereotype to encourage playing the game enough to advance to the Let's Do Science! stage.

If adding cute kats that need feeding and care off planet to test manned pods gets someone interested in building rockets to take them to Duna to play in a sand castle, I don't see how that's a net negative.

[Captain Vlad]

- Easily paintable rockets?

- Creatures on Kerbin and perhaps Duna/Laythe? They could tie in to a life support/happiness/more science mod. Considering the space program's history with animals, a little penance here would be nice.

- More places to explore on the worlds - where the destination has a draw beyond the difficulty to get there. Duna sandcastle with Kerbal slides anyone?

- Machinima capability to allow telling stories in the game? A mod with an easy to use "camera drone"?

- In trailers/demos/playthroughs, feature less the exploding rockets and more the ???

I'd go for all this, actually. Especially option #1. Cuz I'm a white male who's more creative than scientific.

[Frank_G]

I know a handful of women who play games frequently... games like Skyrim, Eve Online, World of Warcraft, Shooters, Adventures, Simulators, Jump n´Runs... all the stuff.

There is no difference, only different styles of play, as every individual has. A co-worker of mine is gay and also a gamer... same there.

Playing a game is nothing more than a personal interest of an individual and style of play is defined by character, not by gender.

Its just sad, that female gamers feel like hiding, just because of too many idiots around... i would hide my gender too, if other people would constantly step on my nerves, just because of being male.

[regex]

Sounds to me like you are saying we should write off all the girls who like pink/cute animals/storytelling?

No, what I am saying is that the game should be appealing and inclusive to everyone who is predisposed to play it. Adding a flower garden or dinosaurs to KSP doesn't make it more appealing to anyone, it waters down the experience and tries to make it something it isn't. Adding female Kerbals is inclusive, paying homage to a history of women in science and spaceflight, while not watering down the experience. Some people are not scientifically inclined or interested in spaceflight and that's okay, they don't have to be nor does KSP have to appeal to them. This is what getting girls/women into STEM fields is about, removing traditional gender barriers and being inclusive, not making it "cutesy" trying to appeal to people who wouldn't really be interested the field in the first place.

[Captain Vlad]

Its just sad, that female gamers feel like hiding, just because of too many idiots around...

The pirate chick on EVE that can-flipped me the last time I subscribed didn't seem too big on hiding.

I miss her.

- - - Updated - - -

No, what I am saying is that the game should be appealing and inclusive to everyone who is predisposed to play it. Adding a flower garden or dinosaurs to KSP doesn't make it more appealing to anyone, it waters down the experience and tries to make it something it isn't.

I gotta disagree with part of this point; If there were like, giant whales in Laythe's ocean you could follow around and study, or something in that vein, I don't see that as going against the whole 'spirit of discovery' thing KSP has as part of it's appeal. I do see what you mean, but I think there's often ways to fit such things into games that might seem at odds with the concept in such a way that it adds to the overall experience.

[Slam_Jones]

-snip- Adding a flower garden or dinosaurs to KSP doesn't make it more appealing to anyone, -snip-

I gotta disagree too. I'd love seeing native creatures roaming around other planets (dinosaurs, whales, even cutesy little fluffy things, idc), and I'm a straight white male.

[regex]

If there were like, giant whales in Laythe's ocean you could follow around and study, or something in that vein, I don't see that as going against the whole 'spirit of discovery' thing KSP has as part of it's appeal. I do see what you mean, but I think there's often ways to fit such things into games that might seem at odds with the concept in such a way that it adds to the overall experience.

I'm happy that I got my point across, and you have an excellent point as well. I think you said it better than I could.

[WOODY01]

I would argue that it isn't, and evidence of this is.: Even though we already have laws that SHOULD even the playing field for everyone, and those laws have been in existence for decades, all of the old prejudices STILL exist.

Social engineering has accomplished superficial changes, rather than the deep seated changes that actually move a society forward in it's thinking.

And I would also argue that in some ways social engineering has furthered the reach of old prejudices as well, brought them more to a front, when they might fade away otherwise.

I am not saying it is quick and fast process. It can take generations. There are people who guide policy, run companys right now who grew up in a time when it was acceptable behavior to discriminate. Now when discrimination is revealed there is a backlash and people standing up saying it is wrong and these people are a mix of races, sexes and relegion. This came about because people fought for laws to be passed and kept the issue in the public eye.

MLK progressed the issue of race equality by bringing it to forefront of public disscussion and debate. Is their still racist? Yes. Is in considered acceptable to discriminate by society as a whole? No. Laws were passed making it illegal to discriminate for hiring, housing.

The "Establishment" is pushing back but are losing the battle. By the way I using the establishment to represent social norms, people in power, social concious, etc.

To keep in theme with the thread:

Was a time you could look at a women right in the face and tell her she is not being hired because she is a woman. She could go complain but that was the only recourse available.

In the US women statistically earn less then men. I have no doubt that there are still times women do not get hired, promoted, or as large a raise because of their gender.

My grandfather never had a woman boss, My dad never had a woman boss, I have had three.

This started with someone fighting bringing the issue up again and again. Women getting the right to vote was fought for, the Equal Rights Admendment was fought for. Change has to be fought for to varying degrees. From simply discussing the issue keeping in view of the public to civil war.

You can not change a social dynamic by not bringing the issue up, it will upset people on both sides, it probally will not change the attitude of the people far left or right on the issue, but history supports it will eventually lead to at least some change in rights, laws, acceptance, etc.

What would you think would happen if you made a deragatory comment about a group of people in front of 20 year olds and then 80 year olds? Which group would you expect to have the statement mirrored and which would you most likely be chastised? Just to acknowledge I realize that my argument is using a preconcived belief of groups of people.

Change comes with varying speeds but it comes as long as people standup to inequality and injustice. There are set backs but it comes.

Edit: Just wanted to add I love this forum. There are few places on the internet where this dicussion could take place without it turning into flame wars, walls of text spewing hate. It is nice to have a discussion with point and counter point.

Edited January 30, 2015 by WOODY01