Few noob questions

[dino1984]

Hi,

So, as I just became Kerbonaut and I'm making my way through tech tree and atmosfere, few questions arised.

1. How do you land planes? First planes where blessing for me (fully retrival vessels for in-atmosfere missions like taking crew reps above or below some alts or on surface). As I didn't invented gears for some time, first launches were really fun (separatrons are great for launching planes from a place:cool:). But about landing... I just can't manage it... crashing all the time... problem are the controls - flying those planes with keyboard is ok if you have to hit some point more-or-less, but precise flying is almost impossible. How do you manage this (currently I'm just using parachutes for landing)?

2. What to upgrade (and to what level) to be able to make planned manouvers in space?

[diomedea]

About landing planes, my approach is to follow a procedure as close as possible to what done in reality. I'm sure most of it will not sound foreign to you or others. Sure, need to have gear, or you're better with chuting above the runway.

You have to know beforehand the lowest speed your plane can stay airborne and stable, of course at very low altitude. It pays to experiment to find out. During all approach and landing, you should never slow below the minimum speed. Also useful to know the Angle of Attack (AoA) to keep altitude at such slow speed.

1. Approach the runway from the sector you want to land (e.g. eastern to land on heading 270), reduce speed and descend. Call tower for landing authorization (ehm, not yet in KSP).

2. while still some Km out from the runway, you should aim to be aligned with it, or, to see the runway exactly at 270° bearing, and have the plane pointing that way. In reality your heading may differ to compensate for wind, not in stock KSP. The distance at you should be aligned depends from expertise, we don't follow mandatory approach procedures like in reality.

3. Also, you should aim for the correct slope. Let's say the correct slope is 2.5° (quite often used), that means to have altitude (above ground) of 440 m at 10 Km; 220m at 5 Km; and so on. Sum the altitude ASL (above sea level) of the runway (70 m for KSC runway), you get the altitude to read (510 m at 10 Km distance).

4. Fly the approach slowing to just a few m/s more than the minimum speed, always keeping aligned with the runway, and descending to follow the slope. If you have those, set your flaps. At a convenient distance (let's say, 5Km out) have your gear down and confirmed.

5. It is normal for a plane to require some AoA, or pitch up, to keep altitude at slow speeds. Let the plane assume the correct AoA while it slows down. Real pilots know the correct AoA for a given weight and speed, and the correct pitch is AoA - slope. The correct AoA also means the plane will touch down with the rear gear first. Don't slow too much, or the AoA will be too high and you may hit the runway with the tail.

6. If all the above went correctly, you should be slow just above the runway gate, aligned, ready for touch down. Different planes may require different ways to handle, I like when all required is just to cut the engine and let the plane descend those few meters while also slowing at the minimum speed. Touch down. Pitch down, apply brakes (apply reversed thrust if any), reset flaps. Let the plane roll until it almost stops and then drive it into the taxiway (not really required in KSP).

[PlonioFludrasco]

Often I follow those procedures too. I also have an "ILS" (a flag planted near the runway and aligned with it) for night landings, when you can't spot KSC that well from distance.

If I'm lazy to approach slowly, I fly the approach at max speed and than perform a break turn to kill speed for landing.

[tomf]

It's quite a lot easier to land on the perfectly flat grass somewhere near the runway, that way you dont have to worry about hitting a target. You can just concentrate on coming down gently. Once you can get on the ground reliably then worry about the runway.

- - - Updated - - -

And for maneouvers you need the tracking station and mission control IIRC.

[eddiew]

Point 1 - if you're struggling to land a plane accurately, odds on it's not responding to controls predictably to start with - but at 5km altitude, you don't notice since you have no nearby frame of reference. It might be worth taking your preferred vehicle on some flights around KSC, see if you can buzz past the tower, or between the buildings in the research section, and find out what your minimum speed at sea level is. Does it roll awkwardly, does it straighten up if you release the controls, and what's your slowest speed for stable flight? These can all be altered and improved with design changes

I'd also suggest getting hold of FAR and turning off aerostructural disintegration in it's "cheats" options. If you're enjoying planes, you'll find that it makes them behave more like actual planes, and you can start applying design principals that you've seen in real usage, e.g. fuel tanks inline with the main wings, a raised tailplane, etc. If you feel brave, FAR's analysis window in the SPH will tell you about the flight characteristics of your plane at various altitudes and speeds before you actually fly it

You can also hit capslock to turn down the responsiveness of the controls and give you some finer tuned action. The little input markers in bottom left will go blue when you're in fine control mode.

Point 2 - as tomf says above. Use the other mouse button on the buildings to get a description of what the next upgrade will be.

[cantab]

I'm like tomf. I'm rubbish at lining up with the runway, so I just come down anywhere at KSC. That whole peninsula, that looks light green from high up, is nice and flat.

Now as for the actual landing, one thing is to start your descent nice and early. If you try and nosedive above KSC you'll build up too much speed to land. This is especially important if you're using FAR or another aerodynamics mod, because it's much harder to shed speed than in the stock "soup". In real life, if you were flying an airliner at 33,000 feet (10 km) you would start your descent around 150-200 km from the runway. That's several times as far from KSC as the island runway is. In KSP you probably can do steeper, but still you get the idea.

Once you're getting fairly low you can also back off the throttle. It depends on the plane and the aerodynamics mod (if any), but I tend to find just a little above zero works well. I don't like to outright cut the engine but some planes do warrant that. If you're making an out landing - ie one not at KSC - then you should by now be looking for a landing site.

Lower your landing gear and let the plane steadily descend until it's just above the runway or landing site. The Small Gear Bay comes with a light, turn that on using U and it will help you judge the distance. Then pitch up to maintain near-level flight and slow down further, and gently let the wheels touch the ground. Apply the brakes but be careful not to flip end over.

If your plane's controls are too twitchy, use fine controls by hitting Caps Lock. Or, if applicable, reduce the number of control surfaces in the relevant axis.

[Alshain]

If you aren't opposed to mods and you want an easier time lining up the runway, try NavUtilties. It has two indicators, 1 for lining the runway, and the second is a PAPI system. On your approach get the two pink triangles to the center line and hold them there, that will bring your touchdown straight to the end of the runway.

These aren't really all that cheaty either, real planes have similar systems. But in a real plane, seeing the runway at a distance is also a lot easier than in this game.

Then there is FAR. With FAR, flying planes is much more intuitive and you have more "real world" tools to help you out as well, like Flaps.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Alshain

[capi3101]

1. It'd be easier to answer the question if you could tell us a little bit about the aerodynamic model you're using, and maybe show a pic or two of the planes you typically fly. I use stock aero myself. I also use NavUtilities; Alshain's provided you the link. Before I used NavUtilities, though, I used to set up a manual ILS. To do this, take a Kerbal, put him out on a very basic rover (or walk/run - it'll just take a lot longer) and drive him out to the ocean-side end of the Runway (just off the raised "ramp" portion). Have him plant a flag. Then drive him/have him run to the other side (landward side) of the runway. Have him plant a flag. Those flags become your ILS - when you're trying to land, line up those two marks on the screen; you know you're aligned with the runway at that point. You can then use the distance between yourself and the current flag to determine your glideslope - you want your altimeter reading in meters to be one hundred times the distance to the marker, plus 100 meters. (For example, if you're 12.3 kilometers from the flag, you want your altimeter to read (100*12.3)+100 = 1330 meters). If you're more than 200-300 meters above that mark, you're too high; more than 200-300 meters below that mark, you're too low. That's just a handy way of doing things if you want to stay stock. Note that you can set out more flags landward; marks at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 25 kilometers will give you more points of reference and will improve the accuracy of your runway alignment.

From there it's pretty much like people have said. Keep your throttles at 2/3 or below until you're 10 k out, then you don't want to be above 1/3 throttle or so. Drop the throttle down to one or two klicks once you're 2-5 kilometers out, and then try to go that last kilometer with throttles off. Touchdown needs to be gentle - 5 m/s downwards, tops. Try the plain out before you shoot for the runway; it's generally an easier target to hit.

Deorbit such that if you start at 100 kilometers, you put your periapsis right over KSC at 44,000 kilometers or so. That'll generally get you within 100 kilometers of KSC; get it right on the money and you should just be able to glide right in. I've never pulled this off myself...

2. Maneuver nodes become available with an upgrade of the Tracking Station to Level 2.

[pincushionman]

…How do you land planes…problem are the controls - flying those planes with keyboard is ok if you have to hit some point more-or-less, but precise flying is almost impossible. How do you manage this…

I have three suggestions on this front:

1) Buy a joystick.

2) Buy a joystick.

3) BUY A JOYSTICK.

This is the single most effective thing you can do to increase your control of aircraft. Yes. Some people can fly very well with the keyboard. But if you want to give yourself the best chance of success, you want a control method that offers continuous input for the pitch and roll axes.

[Alshain]

I have three suggestions on this front:

1) Buy a joystick.

2) Buy a joystick.

3) BUY A JOYSTICK.

This is the single most effective thing you can do to increase your control of aircraft. Yes. Some people can fly very well with the keyboard. But if you want to give yourself the best chance of success, you want a control method that offers continuous input for the pitch and roll axes.

Meh, joysticks are for wimps. Real men do it with the keyboard.

(I'm joking, in case you couldn't tell)

[pincushionman]

Oh, and something specific to landing - if you think you may have to power out of your approach and come around for another pass, then that's exactly what you need to do. Carry enough fuel to do so a few times.

…GO WIMPS! RAH!!

[Alshain]

Likewise if you are coming in shallow, use the engines. Landing unpowered is very difficult to do. Eventually you may want to try your hand at shuttles, which do not have jet engines, but that will surprisingly come naturally with practice. The first time I did it, I didn't even realize it until 2 hours later.

[kzauner]

Do some 'touch and go', leaving out the touch-part. Start, climb to a few 100m turn 180 to the left (now heading 270), don't bother lining up with the runway and try to keep you plane level and choosing your speed in a way that your descending in a rate that you would touch down 'about where the runway is'; a few meters above ground. Throttle TOGA (hit 'Z'), pitch up slightly, climb to few 100 m, turn 180, rinse and repeat. You might consider using lights, for giving you an idea about the height above terrain.

If you are confident, try the same but with a slight 'pitch up' attitude (so your main gear will touch down first). Here stock aero really sucks a little bit, as you will experience too much lift (or maybe its just the bad design of my planes). Most important point here is: control your rate of descent with your throttle, not your pitch.

Well - if you can do the maneuver with a slight pitch-up, you can land. Because if you don't throttle up, you will land. Do your first landings

on flat green grass, there is lot of room (for error). Next logical step is lining up with runway (early), and landing there. Important: use your (scarce) instrumentation, especially the VSI (the thing right to the altimeter) and the altimeter, as well as the speed (surface).

Never ever hesitate to declare a missed approach and go around for another, and hopefully better try. If you feel you need to do some major adjustments regarding attitude, requiring serious banking or pitching when you are on your final approach - go around.

[dino1984]

Thanks for all your answers, I really appreciate it.

Problem with landing is actually solved - main issue was to change (swap) keys assigned to roll and yaw (A and D - roll) and adjust plane construction to make it more stable and aerodynamic.

OFC I have joystick and I know landing procedures (I play alot of DCS series, IL2 Sturmovik, etc.), just couldn't manage it here Thanks.