Everyone's thoughts on plugins?

[hubbazoot]

So, plugins have become a large part of KSP, but my friends and I have a tendency to view them as 'cheating.' I have used mods in the past, mainly looking for the munoliths, but that was only sparingly and the only parts I really used were the cart and the munolith detector, and that\'s because KSP currently lacks wheels and a form of 'electricity.'

Here\'s our reasoning.

1) The impulse of the thrusters and thrust/weight ratios with the plugin parts tend to be significantly higher.

2) The part strength of addon parts is significantly higher, usually, and by several orders of magnitude.

3) Plugins that make orbiting 'easier' or instantaneous take all the challenge out of the game; the entire purpose of the game is to pilot the ship to its goal, and having something do it automatically is flat-out cheating.

Now, I don\'t want to start a flame war, and I don\'t want people getting all sorts of ludicrous insane about this, but I\'m curious as to what other people think about mods.

[softweir]

I have to ask, are you talking about plugins (which are pieces of code that extend the capabilities of the game), or mod parts which depend on the vanilla capabilities of the game? It\'s just that mod parts can be extremely overpowered without the presence of plugins.

Regardless: As my custom text says, I believe it is impossible to cheat in a single-player game! One can make it too easy and therefore a lot less fun, but that is up to the individual - some people find making it easier is MORE fun.

On the other hand, others prefer to make it harder to enjoy it more. For instance, there are people who are determinedly scouring the entire surface of the Mün looking for the three monoliths without using any plugins - and the very best of luck to them because it will take many, many months of systematic searching to find them all without assistance. But that\'s their kick, and I envy them the gratification they will get if they ever succeed - but I don\'t have that much time, nor determination.

Me, I try to imitate the technological progress of a real Space Programme. I started off using only manual control and the basic instrumentation while consulting pre-calculated figures for orbital velocities and aimed to hit those figures. I then progressed to using SAS to make it a bit easier, then went on to ASAS. Now I use the orbital map and MechJeb so I can do more with less work: after all, manually piloting every single detail of ever single flight gets tired after a while. And I am happy in the confidence that the final game will have resources similar to MechJeb, because that means I am playing things in a way not dissimilar to the way the final game will be played.

Later on, I may try RolePlaying financial constraints and Revenue Streams, though that is probably too much work given that I will have to decide on the costs of every bit of equipment. (The costs currently set for equipment do seem very temporary. I\'m sure they will need to be changed later.)

[wired2thenet]

In the beginning, I had a hard time getting into stable orbits, but finally managed to figure it out. It\'s easy enough now, that I tend to MechJeb ascent and orbit.

When I started doing Mun landings, I just couldn\'t land reliably, so I once again used MechJeb to watch it land. After viewing quite a few of them, I started doing them on my own until I got it down pat.

I do use MechJeb to kill my rotation, or to automate my normal/anti-normal burns, but that\'s about it, other than the ascent. Some parts/plugins can be useful learning tools if you\'re struggling at something.

[UmbralRaptor]

Cheating? Not necessarily. MechJeb can be used to merely provide missing instrumentation. NovaPunch parts tend not to have any Isp advantage over stock ones (in fact, the Bertha series of engines are notably worse). C7\'s wings, Tosh\'s cart, Innsewernants\' radar mapper, and the servo pack DamnYouJapan et al are working on add new capabilities unrelated to rocket performance. Things like ZO2 and Silisko Edition make the game *harder*.

The real problems are people (repeatedly) failing to understand the rudiments of spaceflight, why various parts restrictions exist for challenges, and how much (or how little) of an effect variations in part performance will have.

[hubbazoot]

Cheating? Not necessarily. MechJeb can be used to merely provide missing instrumentation. NovaPunch parts tend not to have any Isp advantage over stock ones (in fact, the Bertha series of engines are notably worse). C7\'s wings, Tosh\'s cart, Innsewernants\' radar mapper, and the servo pack DamnYouJapan et al are working on add new capabilities unrelated to rocket performance. Things like ZO2 and Silisko Edition make the game *harder*.

The real problems are people (repeatedly) failing to understand the rudiments of spaceflight, why various parts restrictions exist for challenges, and how much (or how little) of an effect variations in part performance will have.

Things like this that add more to challenge is nice, and I haven\'t messed with it yet. From the experience I\'ve built as a pilot, some instrumentation that doesn\'t exist in what I fly (real world) would make my job remarkably easier. My general thoughts on it are that if someone else can do it using only the base game, I can do it using only the base game. I\'m very intensely competitive, and I\'m hoping to get every dime I can out of every version release, which is partly why I\'m so excited for this next version. I may be releasing a plugin myself if the ability isn\'t implemented into the base game to my satisfaction, mostly for a 'fair' rover system.

In general, I was talking about both plugins and parts. Most likely, I will be looking into the save synchronization plugin for basic multiplayer here, for additional challenges, etc.

[cardgame]

As a specific example, C7\'s plugin could allow you to deploy a small (or large) satellite into orbit, and then land on the runway at the KSC just like the space shuttle. Well, okay, not just like the space shuttle, but close enough. I find that quite a bit more fun than parachuting into the ocean and having less control over my destination, and furthermore, not a cheat in any way. Now, if I were to do munar missions with a spaceplane, that just seems totally unrealistic and therefore not very fun to me. I wouldn\'t bother with it. As has been mentioned, you can\'t exactly cheat in a single player game, but it would feel gamey to me anyway.

As far as competitions and challenges go, by all means, stick to stock parts or certain modpacks you feel are balanced. However, you can\'t expect every challenge to be stock parts only

[Crimson_Pride14]

Think this game is what you make of it. If you wanna focus on flying, go for it. If you wanna focus on managing your flight and designing and more precise craft, you can do that to. Plug-ins just let you change the game to be what you want it to be.

Personally, getting to orbit was really thrilling at the start. With stock parts and not knowing what you\'re doing, it was a real challenge and you had a lot of excitement just getting up there. But now, when I\'m regularly running Munar orbit and landing mission, getting to orbit is just the tedious part before I get to the interesting stuff. So why not let Mechjeb get me to orbit if I don\'t wanna fly it? I know I can if I wanted to, I don\'t need to prove it to myself. Mechjeb also adds precision. Instead of getting stuff to orbit within 10% of what I wanted, I can get it to within 1% now, just from the data that it gives me.

I could go on, but at the end of the day this game will be different for everyone. To me more realistic is actually more computer controlled systems, because that\'s more realistic to real life. The shuttle could basically fly itself, every unmanned mission is controlled by a computer that humans monitor and make inputs to. So most of my flights are computer controlled. The beauty is in the design and execution. To me at least. Yea some parts of over-powered, but you can always just steer away from them. Some would argue the stock parts are unbalanced.

[ferram4]

I personally don\'t like the extra rocket add-ons since the stock parts are crazy-good already, and I really really don\'t like the instant-orbit cheats. On the other hand, C7\'s and Damnyoujapan\'s aerospace parts are wonderful, since it makes exploring Kerbin itself interesting. The space station parts are also nice, since it gives me something to actually put into orbit and rendezvous with.

As for autopilots, I happen to like MechJeb for its precision. I like to compare the performance of my rockets, and sometimes two of them are too similar in performance. If I flew manual, human error would be larger than the difference in performance, and I\'d never be able to compare them. It\'s also the best choice if your goal is to use a rocket most efficiently so you can put a massive space station up or to dive the sun using the smallest ship possible. It\'s very good if the goal is to find out what is possible before bashing your skull against the computer trying to do something that just can\'t be done. It\'s also taught me better ascent trajectories (though even MechJeb\'s trajectories need A LOT of work) and as a result allowed me to design smaller, better rockets that are easier to fly--manually or automatically--than the behemoths I used to use.

Flying something manual is always the most fun, and I remember landing on the Mun using nothing but a single engine and ASAS for control and trying to land Buck Rodgers style without stranding Bill, Bob and Jeb. The autopilot has its place, but manual is always more satisfying.

[havoc1482]

I don\'t even shoot for realism. I shoot for fun. I love making rockets that are absolutely ludicrous in design and sometimes just explode. An example of how much I just love to screw around is I wish there was a addon that turned the crew capsule into a nuclear warhead and I would totally try to build crazy ICBM\'s and attack 'targets' on Kerbin or other planets haha.

Back on topic though, like previously stated, you can\'t cheat in a single player game. If the individual wants to make it easy and that particular finds that level of difficulty fun, then by all means, let him/her do what they desire.

[Kosmo-not]

For myself, I like the challenge of stock parts. I also love flying my rockets without the aids of plugins. I\'ve used the ascent autopilot about 3 times to check out how well it was programmed (it has probably improved a lot since then). I love deriving the equations of orbital mechanics and putting them to practice.

But that\'s me. I\'m an engineering student and can understand all this stuff. I know that there are people playing KSP that have less technical ability than others, and I think there should be easier options available to them. I admit that I sometimes despise people for using very unrealistic mods. If that\'s fun to them, and since it\'s a relatively single player game, it\'s not really our place to judge them for the choices they make. I just hope they gain some sort of knowledge through playing KSP.

I\'ve learned so much by playing KSP. I bet I would be a top notch pilot if I tried orbiter again.

[Misterspork]

-snip-

1) The impulse of the thrusters and thrust/weight ratios with the plugin parts tend to be significantly higher.

2) The part strength of addon parts is significantly higher, usually, and by several orders of magnitude.

3) Plugins that make orbiting 'easier' or instantaneous take all the challenge out of the game; the entire purpose of the game is to pilot the ship to its goal, and having something do it automatically is flat-out cheating.

-snip-

1) No, this hasn\'t been the case for a long time

2) Part strength? Do you mean structurally?

3) No, that is not the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is to do what YOU want to with the parts given to you, either in the vanilla game or through addons/plugins

Additional:

4) Plugins add ENTIRELY new game mechanics. Think about it, cars, planes, guns, wheels, lasers. They are worth getting simply for all the new possibilities they add

5) NEVER, EVER call something cheating in a single-player game. What 'ruins the game' is up to the opinion of the SINGE-PLAYER, not the OTHER, NON-RELATED PLAYERS.

[Phoxtane]

I like the Mechjeb. It allows me to do stuff I would never have been able to do!

I guess that I could work backwards; use plugins to show me how to do stuff, and slowly work my way towards independence. Most of the time though, I\'ll launch a rocket and have it set into a parking orbit while I talk with somebody. It\'s a matter of convenience.

[Crimson_Pride14]

I\'ve learned so much by playing KSP.

When I go for my master\'s, if I have to teach propulsion or some class with orbital mechanics, I\'m gonna use this game to show em how they work. I never really understood how Hohmann Transfers worked till I played this. Cool to see all the things you learn in class being applied. I\'m hoping in the real game they\'ll have Isp values for engines, so you can do a proper sizing of your rockets before you fly. Possible project maybe.

[PakledHostage]

For myself, I like the challenge of stock parts. I also love flying my rockets without the aids of plugins. I\'ve used the ascent autopilot about 3 times to check out how well it was programmed (it has probably improved a lot since then). I love deriving the equations of orbital mechanics and putting them to practice.

I agree. I don\'t like to use the automated controls. I don\'t even use SAS or ASAS on my rockets unless a stage has some quirk that makes it difficult to hand fly. By my own personal standards, I consider it something of a design flaw if I need to add automated controls to make my rockets flyable.

I also enjoy the challenge of making do with the existing instrumentation. You can do a lot with just the navball and map view. You just need to use the information that they provide to do your own calculations. I enjoy that challenge. While I\'m no longer an engineering student (I graduated to the 'real world' long ago), I find that I miss the academic stimulation of university. For me, KSP provides a learning opportunity and a technical challenge that keeps me hooked. Tools like MechJeb or better instruments would diminish that for me.

PH.

[hubbazoot]

Kosmo-not, I feel a lot the same about it as you do. As an engineer, I feel my goal is to achieve the desired result with the bounds that are currently set in place. So, if the bounds that are set in place don\'t allow for an autopilot system, I don\'t use them.

Most of the time I want to talk to someone, whilst playing, I just leave the game running at 1x speed. I have yet to 'role-play' a mun flight mission, where I don\'t time lapse at all (I\'m planning on doing that over the summer).

If a game has a built-in 'autopilot' system, I will use it. I use the ASAS because it\'s good at something that would take a LOT of effort to do myself, and it\'s an 'approved' methodology.

[avan]

I happen to use a lot of modded parts, though they were pretty much all from the aforementioned list of mods balanced to stock or less; I just wanted nice-looking parts that behaved realistically, and to give me a variety of aesthetics to choose from. (I\'m both an artist and an engineer XP )

There are two exceptions (of being on that list), specifically mechjeb & some custom super-strength struts I added specifically to avoid the all-so-irritating frame-1 physics glitch (where the physics sim goes bonkers because of the extremely low frame rate while a massive missile is being loaded into the game) that would sometimes cause my rockets to blow up on the pad on the first few frames. While it didn\'t entirely remedy the situtation (some rockets would blow up nomatter what, I think due to illegal placement of parts in manners that would cause them to clip ever-so-slightly into others), it did fix a good number of my designs. I primarily use mechjeb to be able to access stages, satellites, and other such stuff after they have detached, since it classifies them as flights as opposed to merely debris. However, the autopilot is also really good for routine launches of smaller, simple craft (the autopilot has severe issues with large rockets; I can usually get them out of the atmosphere with anywhere from no to low difficulty, yet the autopilot will lose control below 10km, or simply cause the whole thing to disintegrate), and getting them into precise orbital inclinations, mainly for doing things like launching low orbit probes and whatnot.

[EDF]

cheating in a singleplayer sandbox.

[sal_vager]

Not sure I can add much that hasn\'t already been said, it\'s a single player game so the only person you can cheat is yourself.

But saying that, most of the plugins add functionality to the game that make KSP bigger and grander than stock, just take a look at the new robotics pack, and the cart should be a stock part in my opinion, also as has been mentioned there are mods that add orbital structures, working satellites and construction, this is simply not possible with the basic game as it currently stands.

Yeah there are overpowered packs of rocket bits that make getting to the Mun easy, and there are massively oversize, underpowered wobbly rockets if you like that kind of stuff, that make it harder to get to the Mun.

The overpower stuff I don\'t use, and the so called extra realistic stuff is okay but I prefer stock, that way I can concentrate on my flying without being distracted by big shiny stuff that just does the same job.

What I personally don\'t use is Mechjeb, it just seems a cop out to me if you can get it to do your flying for you, and I don\'t like it staring at me.

Edit: I just want to mention the space shuttles, I love the shuttles but it\'s really hard to make working aircraft with stock parts, C7 stuff is nice but there\'s just too many, give me the Hope anyday.

[Endeavour]

I like playing using only the stock parts and no mods. I think it really helps my creativity to only have a limited amount of things to use, and I tend to experiment more, which makes the game fun for longer. I tried out Mechjeb once, but I really don\'t see the point in using it. Why not just watch a video of someone playing the game instead? But its singleplayer, so people can do whatever they want, and they can decide for themselves what is fun.

[Alchemist]

Thee will always be 2 different approaches for KSP:

1. Engineer - challenge to build efficient and reliable craft. No overpowered parts (optimal are stock o realistically balanced), but autopilots are very accepted

2. Pilot - challenge to pilot that uncontrollable monstrosity. Any overpowered parts accepted (if they add more fun), but no autopilots.

I\'m an engineer. So I don\'t like overpowered things.

As for plugins that add something interesting - they are always welcome.

My PowerSat was inspired by old good CommSat (once a very popular payload). The problem with it was that it needed a decoupler (that resulted attached to the satellite) and had no attitude control (somebody on the forum once was complaining that the satellites point anywhere except where they should). So I tried to fix these issues and also add normally working solar panels.

For building launch vehicles I prefer stock parts. But for the payload something special is needed.

[sal_vager]

So if you fly efficient stock craft with no overpower parts, and also fly without autopilots, even without ASAS most of the time, what category are you in?

[Kreuzung]

Between both. I have fun flying planes but I always control my rockets with autopilot, mainly because my laptop lags harly and my ships always have a MechJeb-also-needs-several-tries-to-turn-prograde design.

[Tiberion]

The only problem with the 'all stock' thing.. the current stock parts are just arbitrarily balanced to keep the game functional, its not built in any way to provide difficulty or realism, and several of the values are wildly inaccurate (like the weight of a decoupler)

I have to question whether anyone truly sticks to stock parts for a challenge, because mod parts could go both ways; you could create modded parts with an extreme difficultly level, using the stock meshes or brand new ones. I\'ve never really seen anyone try it (Nova\'s original SE balance is probably closest to something truly hard, and I don\'t think it ended up too popular.

I view KSP like playing with Legos. The more pieces you have to play with, the more complex and better things you can make. There are indeed cheat parts out there, but there are tons of pieces that add new challenges and capabilities to the game, and you can do things with elegance and efficiency, rather than the brute force method of building that stock ships require.

Back to the lego analogy, its sort of like comparing the giant Duplo blocks for small children with the complex themed ego playsets. They\'re not really comparable, aside from being plastic things that snap together

[sal_vager]

Hey I fly two installs, one packed with mods, the other not, I know many players try to get as many fuel tanks, engines and boosters on the launchpad as possible, but some like myself try to get the most out of as few parts as possible, and try doing with stock what they were never designed for when it\'s far easier to just grab a mod part designed for the job.

KSP is currently limited in its user friendliness when too many mods are installed as well, I know what will change eventually but for now, having too many mods is a pain.

Stock is limited, and the limitations has its own attraction, it\'s not so difficult when you can just plop a 5000 unit fuel tank on a 3 meter engine.

[Tiberion]

Indeed, we\'re missing the 'cost' part of the equation that will keep people from being able to use massive tanks and engines for easy things. But since its single player, we can ignore those types for now. And while piles of mods are indeed annoying to manage, the piles of stock parts needed for big implementations also commonly kill computers, so there are many applications where bigger pieces are needed simply to make certain things do-able.

And I want to be clear, and I not saying people who play a certain way shouldn\'t do it, this is the brilliant thing about sandbox style games, you get to do what you want, with minimal hand-holding. I probably haven\'t played with stock parts outside of testing things more than a few minutes since my 1st couple of months here, but I have no problem with those that do.

I just wanted to interject that they\'re not really a 'standard' to be looked to, and they\'ll likely change significantly sometime in the future.