Nertea

[1.2.2] Near Future Technologies (Mar 22nd, new NFE reactors)

443 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Nertea said:

I can't see any obvious problems that would cause it from the file list and the log. Does this occur with the normal NFE reactors?

Yes, it does. In fact, I don't even need USI installed - it happens with NFE only.

BTW, it helps to do

Alt-F12 -> Debugging -> Show All Log Exceptions on the Screen

and

Alt-F12 -> Debugging -> Show All Log Errors on the Screen

:)

Edited by Kobymaru

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Kobattos has decided to get to this pack, though he missed an engine (and skimmed the RCS) in his first of the four-part series:

 

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@DStaal - neat! I'll give it a watch right after posting this.

 

@Nertea - I can now reproduce @Kobymaru's issue. You get that one null reference error the first time you start a reactor after loading a scene. Only the first time, just that once. Further starts and stops do not error out, which is what threw me off the first time 'round. But if you reload the scene (or go to the space center and back to the vessel), and try to start the reactor again, it pops up again. Once.

I didn't test if multiple reactors on the same vessel will all error out once, or if starting any reactor gets the error out of the way for the rest of the scene.

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how does this work with the stock tech tree? does it add new nodes?

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Angular connectors still can't properly connect at 30 degrees. 45 degree connections are OK. 

Edited by Dr. Jet

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7 hours ago, scowcow said:

how does this work with the stock tech tree? does it add new nodes?

It does not add new nodes. All parts get sorted into the stock nodes. Yes, this does lead to several nodes being chock full of parts, and very little progression.

However, if you have Community Tech Tree, there are entire sub-branches dedicated to Near Future parts progression :)  CTT is an extension to the stock tech tree instead of a complete redo, like other tech tree mods. Near Future strongly recommends CTT.

Edited by Streetwind

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.625m lithium tanks?

Edited by toric5

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Thank you. I really like the configurable octagonal trusses!

I posted this on Curse, not sure if you look there, then I found this thread: I have an issue when MkIVSystem mod is installed. It breaks the trusses, they're no longer available. I don't know if this a bug or I'm doing something wrong. Then I updated the B9PartSwitch to 1.6.1 and the trusses are visible now but broken. Once I remove MkIVSystem it all goes back to normal.

Any ideas? Do you want to see logs or need more information? Thanks!

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@Nertea Glad to see everything back, and thanks for setting the thread back up - major fan, my interstellar spacecraft would not be possible without your mods, especially NFC and NFE.  Thanks again for all the time and effort!

 

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10 hours ago, Kerbital said:

Thank you. I really like the configurable octagonal trusses!

I posted this on Curse, not sure if you look there, then I found this thread: I have an issue when MkIVSystem mod is installed. It breaks the trusses, they're no longer available. I don't know if this a bug or I'm doing something wrong. Then I updated the B9PartSwitch to 1.6.1 and the trusses are visible now but broken. Once I remove MkIVSystem it all goes back to normal.

Any ideas? Do you want to see logs or need more information? Thanks!

The only thing I can think of that might be causing this is conflicting part switch definitions... but even so, I'm very surprised that those two mods don't agree with each other. Will try to reproduce it when I get back home later today.

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On 30.01.2017 at 2:40 AM, toric5 said:

.625m lithium tanks?

And 3.75m! Don't forget 3.75m. Lithium tanks and mobile lab in this size are needed.

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@Nertea

Glad to see you back, and it's great that the reactor fuel consumption is fixed (to be tested today).  I have been using pretty much all of your mods for quite a while, even if I had to "cut corners" in certain areas (e.g., use KA engines but modify them to use nuclear fuel yet avoid the fuel consumption bug - which is hopefully now gone; more so, just yesterday I finished gutting your reactors to use stock converters, mostly to avoid the bug described below).

Another bug/issue to report though (it applies to previous version, but I do not see anything related to this particular issue in the changelog): overheating reactors and fuel containers.  Symptoms: when coming back (vessel switch, or physics load due to proximity, for example when trying to rendezvous with a IP vessel with a reactor in LKO to retrieve crew and science), a lot of parts "explode due to overheating".  My assumption, somewhat supported by observation of "backlog processing" happening on vessel load, is that background processing is limited/non-existent, and the calculations of fuel consumption and heat generation are happening on load, resulting in tremendous amounts of heat being produced and redistributed too quickly (backlog)... usually the parts with least heat tolerance, such as crew cabins, explode, first.  I understand that there are or could be engine limitations to implementing this correctly, but it still "bugs" me.  It is really difficult to give you a "clean" example/save to test on, as I am using a bunch of mods, quite a few with custom modifications, and am actually playing the game.  This behavior is not 100% consistent, either - e.g., a vessel may explode on loading, but if I restart the game and try again - it will be "hot", but will not explode; also, sometimes (not always) switching vessels at short/medium time before rendezvous will allow everything to equalize, thus avoiding explosiveness on encounter (again, behavior will be somewhat different if I do that on a long game session or restart the game just before trying again).

P.S.  Should I sign this post as "The Demotivator"?  I hope not, as my intentions are exactly opposite.

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@Tau137 - you're the first to report this issue in a long, long time. Like, this was a problem back in 1.0.x days. I'm gonna need exact reproduction steps (or a savegame that reliably demonstrates it) in a fresh 1.2.2 install with only NF Electrical (plus its dependencies) in the latest version please.

(You're correct though; background processing is not a thing that happens in KSP. Everything is processed on vessel load. That is true for stock KSP as well as all mods not specifically going out of their way to write a custom solution.)

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42 minutes ago, Streetwind said:

@Tau137 - you're the first to report this issue in a long, long time. Like, this was a problem back in 1.0.x days. I'm gonna need exact reproduction steps (or a savegame that reliably demonstrates it) in a fresh 1.2.2 install with only NF Electrical (plus its dependencies) in the latest version please.

(You're correct though; background processing is not a thing that happens in KSP. Everything is processed on vessel load. That is true for stock KSP as well as all mods not specifically going out of their way to write a custom solution.)

Thank you for quick response - I will try to give you a reproducible "clean" save with latest NF version on stock, but cannot guarantee it (RL time limitations), sorry

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@Tau137 - yeah, no worries. I have a fulltime job too :P

@Kerbital - Unable to reproduce. I can load up MkIV and NF Construction together just fine; all parts are present and the switchable trusses switch as intended. So the only thing I can tell you is the same I told Tau: exact reproduction steps in a clean installation please. Because "just install them together" isn't reproducing it...

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On 1/28/2017 at 4:32 AM, Dr. Jet said:

Angular connectors still can't properly connect at 30 degrees. 45 degree connections are OK. 

Helps if you make an issue on the repo. All the forum bug reports were lost when the old thread was killed, this demonstrates the value of putting it on the tracker.

On 1/29/2017 at 3:40 PM, toric5 said:

.625m lithium tanks?

Maybe in 2018. 

22 hours ago, Kerbital said:

Thank you. I really like the configurable octagonal trusses!

I posted this on Curse, not sure if you look there, then I found this thread: I have an issue when MkIVSystem mod is installed. It breaks the trusses, they're no longer available. I don't know if this a bug or I'm doing something wrong. Then I updated the B9PartSwitch to 1.6.1 and the trusses are visible now but broken. Once I remove MkIVSystem it all goes back to normal.

Any ideas? Do you want to see logs or need more information? Thanks!

I can't reproduce this is my test install. More information is required, such as a modlist and a log. 

2 hours ago, Tau137 said:

Another bug/issue to report though (it applies to previous version, but I do not see anything related to this particular issue in the changelog): overheating reactors and fuel containers.  Symptoms: when coming back (vessel switch, or physics load due to proximity, for example when trying to rendezvous with a IP vessel with a reactor in LKO to retrieve crew and science), a lot of parts "explode due to overheating".  My assumption, somewhat supported by observation of "backlog processing" happening on vessel load, is that background processing is limited/non-existent, and the calculations of fuel consumption and heat generation are happening on load, resulting in tremendous amounts of heat being produced and redistributed too quickly (backlog)... usually the parts with least heat tolerance, such as crew cabins, explode, first.  I understand that there are or could be engine limitations to implementing this correctly, but it still "bugs" me.  It is really difficult to give you a "clean" example/save to test on, as I am using a bunch of mods, quite a few with custom modifications, and am actually playing the game.  This behavior is not 100% consistent, either - e.g., a vessel may explode on loading, but if I restart the game and try again - it will be "hot", but will not explode; also, sometimes (not always) switching vessels at short/medium time before rendezvous will allow everything to equalize, thus avoiding explosiveness on encounter (again, behavior will be somewhat different if I do that on a long game session or restart the game just before trying again).

This has to do with the stock heat redistribution system. When a vessel loads or even swaps between analytics mode and immediate mode ("on rails") the heat content is redistributed throughout the ship in a different way than immediate. Depending on the particularities of the algorithm, this can result in the heat content of a part with high thermal mass being averaged into parts with low thermal mass, thus increasing their temperature drastically. Because the reactors do contain a lot of heat, NFE has been relatively carefully tuned to avoid this or at least minimize it. If you're tweaking things and editing values I can't really say what combinations of thermal-affecting parameters may be causing it to appear often. 

You see this bug anytime you have high heat content parts, to be honest. It's relatively easy to reproduce with a few cfg tweaks, give an engine a stupidly high thermal mass and heat output, build a ship with a few " sensitive" parts, run it up for a while to heat things up, then save and switch vessels (or even just kick things up to high timewarp). There's a decent chance that it will redistribute the heat on reload and kill the sensitive parts. 

Edited by Nertea

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7 minutes ago, Nertea said:

*snip*

Important info regarding heat

Does placing a large amounts of radiators on the vessel sovle or avoid the explody-ness?

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5 minutes ago, smotheredrun said:

Does placing a large amounts of radiators on the vessel sovle or avoid the explody-ness?

Kinda but not really. The bug appears to occur when the heat content of the internal heat bucket is large (not really related to the core heat). So if you have a bunch of radiators, let them radiate away the heat from the large-mass parts, then save, you can avoid it. This is more or less why NFE stuff is configured to bypass this as much as possible by simply keeping things in the core heat bucket. 

Really the only sure-fire way to avoid it is to not have parts with high thermal masses be very hot on game save :S. 

Edited by Nertea
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7 hours ago, Nertea said:

Maybe in 2018.

does that mean you are opposed to the idea, or that it is low on your priority list?

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10 hours ago, Nertea said:

Kinda but not really. The bug appears to occur when the heat content of the internal heat bucket is large (not really related to the core heat). So if you have a bunch of radiators, let them radiate away the heat from the large-mass parts, then save, you can avoid it. This is more or less why NFE stuff is configured to bypass this as much as possible by simply keeping things in the core heat bucket. 

Really the only sure-fire way to avoid it is to not have parts with high thermal masses be very hot on game save :S. 

@Tau137 I've experienced this same bug in my stock KSP save with my ISRU rigs.  IIRC, I believe this behavior is on Squad's radar as a bug, but no clue where I read that or if they've found a fix or not.  But it does happen in vanilla KSP as well.

@Nertea I've had to do this very thing you suggested above to avoid parts of my ISRU rig from blowing up on vessel re-load.  Shut down the converter and drills and let the radiators cool them down before switching to another vessel outside physics range or back to the Space Center.

Edited by Raptor9

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21 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

@Tau137 I've experienced this same bug in my stock KSP save with my ISRU rigs.  IIRC, I believe this behavior is on Squad's radar as a bug, but no clue where I read that or if they've found a fix or not.  But it does happen in vanilla KSP as well.

@Nertea I've had to do this very thing you suggested above to avoid parts of my ISRU rig from blowing up on vessel re-load.  Shut down the converter and drills and let the radiators cool them down before switching to another vessel outside physics range or back to the Space Center.

possibly that's connected? --> http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/13403

Edited by LatiMacciato

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On 1/31/2017 at 2:24 AM, Streetwind said:

The only thing I can think of that might be causing this is conflicting part switch definitions... but even so, I'm very surprised that those two mods don't agree with each other. Will try to reproduce it when I get back home later today.

No worries, the space plane is not of huge importance to me. I'd rather keep the configurable octo-trusses, they're awesome. I thought maybe there is a quick fix. Unless more people complain about this do not waste time on my account. Thank you!

20 hours ago, Streetwind said:

@Tau137 - yeah, no worries. I have a fulltime job too :P

@Kerbital - Unable to reproduce. I can load up MkIV and NF Construction together just fine; all parts are present and the switchable trusses switch as intended. So the only thing I can tell you is the same I told Tau: exact reproduction steps in a clean installation please. Because "just install them together" isn't reproducing it...

Ah, thanks for checking, I should have finish reading the thread before replying. Like I said, not a huge deal but definitely appreciate you taking the time to check it out. I'll see if I can gather better evidence, otherwise, really no worries. I just though maybe I missed some instruction or something easy.

9 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

@Tau137 I've experienced this same bug in my stock KSP save with my ISRU rigs.  IIRC, I believe this behavior is on Squad's radar as a bug, but no clue where I read that or if they've found a fix or not.  But it does happen in vanilla KSP as well.

@Nertea I've had to do this very thing you suggested above to avoid parts of my ISRU rig from blowing up on vessel re-load.  Shut down the converter and drills and let the radiators cool them down before switching to another vessel outside physics range or back to the Space Center.

Interesting. Is that why vessels explode randomly on game load??? It happened to me several times but I just blamed it on a random game bug and moved on. Yeah, now that I think about it, it's possible I left the ISRU running when I saved these games. All exploding vessels in question were large space station with ISRUs. Thank you:)

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I have a question for the balance-pros in this thread (I guess that's @Streetwind?)

I wanted to build a Big Fu.... nky Ship that boosts my dear Kerbals in high-velocity Trajectory towards Laythe.

 

I am finding that the masses of the NF Construction parts are temptingly low, especially in comparison with RoverDude's freight transport technologies, which provides similar construction parts.

For example:

Your Modular Multi-Purpose Annular Truss has a mass of only 1.5 t, 
The StarLifter Cargo Rack (Small) from FTT has a mass of 3.75 t for a very comparable size and purpose.
BTW, an empty Stock S3-14400 Fuel Tank has a mass of 9t for the same size.

The NFC "Modular Annular Truss Adapter" has a mass of 0.4t, but the FTT "5m to 3.75m adapter" has a mass of 1.65t - but they have the exact same purpose and virtually identical shape.

I could go on and try to find other examples of equivalency, but you get the point.

 

Now I know that RoverDude's parts are... "loosely balanced" when it comes to mass&cost, whereas you guys usually know what you are doing.

But I just wanted to ask about the rather high discrepancy and the lightness (even in absolute terms) of the parts. Are those ballpark masses or did you put some thought into them?

 

Thanks for making such a great mod, by the way :)

Edited by Kobymaru

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Unfortunately I can't help you with NF Construction. Nertea himself chose the figures for those parts, and I wasn't involved in this process. I wouldn't have had anything useful to add anyway, knowing nothing about how these kinds of structures work IRL...

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On 2/1/2017 at 6:49 AM, Kerbital said:

Interesting. Is that why vessels explode randomly on game load??? It happened to me several times but I just blamed it on a random game bug and moved on. Yeah, now that I think about it, it's possible I left the ISRU running when I saved these games. All exploding vessels in question were large space station with ISRUs. Thank you:)

It could be a reason. It's the kinda thing it would be nice to get squad to fix, if it wasn't so tough to reliably repro without with some cfg tweaking. 

2 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

I am finding that the masses of the NF Construction parts are temptingly low, especially in comparison with RoverDude's freight transport technologies, which provides similar construction parts.

For example:

Your Modular Multi-Purpose Annular Truss has a mass of only 1.5 t, 
The StarLifter Cargo Rack (Small) from FTT has a mass of 3.75 t for a very comparable size and purpose.
BTW, an empty Stock S3-14400 Fuel Tank has a mass of 9t for the same size.

The NFC "Modular Annular Truss Adapter" has a mass of 0.4t, but the FTT "5m to 3.75m adapter" has a mass of 1.65t - but they have the exact same purpose and virtually identical shape.

I could go on and try to find other examples of equivalency, but you get the point.

All the parts have been scaled more or less accurately to each other. The absolute number may not be accurate, at some time there will be a Great Rebalance of NFC/NFSpacecraft

 

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