Are "science points" too generic? Does the game become a grind?

[allmhuran]

That doesn't say "it's a tutorial". I don't take it as implying that even

Aha. So the part where the lead developer states, and I quote:

"And i think that's kinda the purpose of the tech tree. The tech tree isn't something that implies and end goal to the game. once you max out the tech tree you're at the point where new players sit down to play .21 right now actually. So that's kinda the purpose is to just give players a system that introduces the game gradually to them so that they're not completely lost by this insurmountable wall of content that you get on a first time playthrough."

You are saying does not, in fact, imply that it is a system designed to introduce new players more gradually to how the game works?

Cool, I believe this now settles the matter.

[Person012345]

Aha. So the part where the lead developer states, and I quote:

"And i think that's kinda the purpose of the tech tree. The tech tree isn't something that implies and end goal to the game. once you max out the tech tree you're at the point where new players sit down to play .21 right now actually. So that's kinda the purpose is to just give players a system that introduces the game gradually to them so that they're not completely lost by this insurmountable wall of content that you get on a first time playthrough."

You are saying does not, in fact, imply that it is a system designed to introduce new players more gradually to how the game works?

Cool, I believe this now settles the matter.

Go ahead and listen to a bit more. He's talking about the early stages.

[allmhuran]

No, he said this is "the purpose of the tech tree". Not "the purpose of the early stages of the tech tree". All of it. Indeed, just prior to the point I linked, Scott specifically says that the idea seems to be to "max out the tech tree and then you're back to sandbox", and Felipe responds in the affirmative. This clearly means getting to the end of the tree, not just being in the early stages.

All he says about the early stages is that they are *particularly* easy, which is of course what you'd expect for the early stages of a tutorial system.

Look, I think we both know you're trying to stick to your guns in the face of direct and holistic contradictory evidence (for which you specifically asked), possibly in an attempt to "save face" or something. But you need to step back and see that it's not working very well and, honestly, while you personally might be quite a rational and reasonable person, these kinds of comments really are quite crazy.

Edited October 15, 2013 by allmhuran

[Person012345]

No, he said this is "the purpose of the tech tree". Not "the purpose of the early stages of the tech tree". All of it. All he says about the early stages is that they are *particularly* easy, which is of course what you'd expect for the early stages of a tutorial system.

Look, I think we both know you're trying to stick to your guns in the face of direct and holistic contradictory evidence (for which you specifically asked), possibly in an attempt to "save face" or something. But you need to step back and see that it's not working very well and, honestly, while you personally might be quite a rational and reasonable person, these kinds of comments really are quite crazy.

Because taking a few sentences out of context from someone who's first language probably isn't english is always a reliable way to discern what they mean.

Like I said, listen to a few minutes more. He seems to be talking about the early stages being as they are in order not to overwhelm the newbie. Exactly what I expected. That doesn't mean the entire tree is a tutorial.

[allmhuran]

It's 3 minutes of discussion, and the point is made perfectly clear, but you're welcome to maintain your delusions. Great chat.

[Person012345]

It's 3 minutes of discussion, and the point is made perfectly clear, but you're welcome to maintain your delusions. Great chat.

As I already said, I'm not saying it's definitely not a tutorial. I will have to test it myself first. But there's no reason to claim the entire thing is a tutorial from that. He says that the early nodes are to introduce the concepts and the tech tree as a whole is "leaning on the easy side to a hardcore player". This doesn't imply a tutorial from beginning to end.

[Nostromo]

Come on guys, be a bit more reasonable. It will expand as the game develops, this is just the beginning of it.

[AlamoVampire]

I am getting the feeling that no matter what we say, we will never get him to understand. he has this impression that the career mode is a tutorial, and nothing will shake him of this perception. Right now, with those of us who ARE playing .22 by permission of SQUAD, they cannot say a bloody thing. They KNOW what it is like, but they cannot say a bloody thing. I am 100% CERTAIN that if they could, they would end this nonsense here and now, but again, they have most likely signed a contract saying they will not divulge anything to us w/out the express direction and consent of SQUAD.

It LOOKS like right now, the tech tree is rather simple and perhaps relatively easy to charge right through. Is this tutorial? absolutely not. It is most likely a place holder mechanic for greater and grander things to come down the road. What does this mean exactly? Well....

It means that, what we have seen in those snippets and the permission to show us a small % of it videos, it shows that it MIGHT be easy for now. This can and most likely WILL change. From what I have seen in Scott's video, it looks like early to mid level stuff is easy to get true enough, BUT, the later stuff like say Nuclear engines for example, may take twice to 3 TIMES as much "science" to unlock, and given that it seems that there is a chance that we may LOSE some 'science' in a data transmission, where say, you have a 40% transmission rate, and you have 10 science points to send back, you may see only 4 arrive. <this is taken from Harveys video, HOCGaming by the way>. Also, if I recall correctly, HarvesteR did state they were looking at ways to fix the exploits the early testers like Scott Manley have found to burn down the tech tree in 3-4 flights or less.

The be all end all of all of this, is a few things.

1. this game is in an Alpha state, which means, we are missing HUGE portions of what will ultimately be the final product, and are seeing new things added in all the time.

2. we <the majority of us> do not know anything more than what we have been given permission vicariously through players like Scott Manley to glimpse an as of this MOMENT, an unfinished variant of 0.22, which, let's face it guys, WILL change multiple times before we <the majority of us AGAIN> get our hands on it.

3. we can only sit back and wait to see what exactly shakes out in the end.

4. THIS IS STILL IN AN ALPHA STATE. Which bares repeating folks.

[AlamoVampire]

As I already said, I'm not saying it's definitely not a tutorial. I will have to test it myself first. But there's no reason to claim the entire thing is a tutorial from that. He says that the early nodes are to introduce the concepts and the tech tree as a whole is "leaning on the easy side to a hardcore player". This doesn't imply a tutorial from beginning to end.

we will not change his mind. he is dead set on thinking that career mode is a waste, because he is taking multiple things out of context, because the context he is using suits some delusion he is laboring under. sad, but true.

it is not a tutorial, or it is a tutorial. thing is, we do not know, nor does Allmhuran for a fact, he is assuming things not in hard, set in stone evidence, which bothers him, so again, he assumes.

[allmhuran]

we will not change his mind. he is dead set on thinking that career mode is a waste, because he is taking multiple things out of context

Interesting, I don't recall ever saying that the tech tree represented the entirety of career mode, nor do I recall putting "career mode" as part of the title of this thread. Let me check.... yep, I am indeed specifically talking about science points and the tech tree as per 0.22.

Having established that there is some level of crazy going on here with these comments, I think I'll bow out, my point having been made abundantly clear by Felipe himself. I leave you with the last, surely unhinged, word.

[AlamoVampire]

Allmhuran... you sir are truly something. You said Career mode is a tutorial, which it is not. You said this game is NOT in Alpha, when it clearly is. Along with some other things, but, i now, give you something from Kasper, that I saw in a diff thread:

The career mode is not done after 0.22 is released, this is just the first version of the game in which you can access it.<rest snipped out as it pertains to a different thread>

[Person012345]

Interesting, I don't recall ever saying that the tech tree represented the entirety of career mode, nor do I recall putting "career mode" as part of the title of this thread. Let me check.... yep, I am indeed specifically talking about science points and the tech tree as per 0.22.

Having established that there is some level of crazy going on here with these comments, I think I'll bow out, my point having been made abundantly clear by Felipe himself. I leave you with the last, surely unhinged, word.

Yes, that's my point. I must say, I'm pleased to see you're starting to come around.

So we agree, career mode isn't for you.

Right, because it's a tutorial.

Yeah, ok. We're so craaazy, taking what you say at face value.

[allmhuran]

That's worth responding to.

All we have in career mode in 0.22 is the tech tree, so yes, in 0.22 career mode only includes this tutorial component.

This entire discussion has revolved around the tech tree and science points. That is, after all, the title of the thread. If you choose to equate the tech tree in 0.22 with career mode in its entirety, then I will graciously assume you must mean the aspect of career mode that is coming in 0.22, otherwise you would seem to be saying that career mode is and always will be only the tech tree, which I don't think anyone believes to be the case, and would be another incongruous assertion.

I think that should clear things up.

[Person012345]

That's worth responding to.

All we have in career mode in 0.22 is the tech tree, so yes, in 0.22 career mode only includes this tutorial component.

This entire discussion has revolved around the tech tree and science points. That is, after all, the title of the thread. If you choose to equate the tech tree in 0.22 with career mode in its entirety, then I will graciously assume you must mean the aspect of career mode that is coming in 0.22, otherwise you would seem to be saying that career mode is and always will be only the tech tree, which I don't think anyone believes to be the case, and would be another incongruous assertion.

I think that should clear things up.

Don't blame other people when they take what you say, even if it's a misunderstanding.

And as we've already said, the tech tree is not designed to exist in a vacuum. If your only point is that the tech tree, alone and without the rest of the career mode, won't be some great amazing new feature for the experienced player then woop de do what were you actually expecting. Hell if it's actually difficult for an experienced player in a situation where you have unlimited funds they've probably balanced it incredibly poorly in the grand scheme of things.

[allmhuran]

Once again, I was not the one that claimed we were talking about "career mode" in its entirety. When you used the phrase I chose to interpret that in the context in which I raised the discussion. If you actually meant to mean career mode - all it is and every will be - then you are not talking about the same topic that I am talking about. The thread topic, my thread topic, does not use the term for good reason.

[PDCWolf]

This is not how development increments work.

Do you understand what "following logical steps" means? Every update until now was a 0.1 increment, with a few exceptions. Following that stepping, then we are about 70/75 updates away from 1.0.

Obviously squad can come tomorrow with 0.45 and break the logical sequence they have been following.

[NeilC]

Do you understand what "following logical steps" means? Every update until now was a 0.1 increment, with a few exceptions. Following that stepping, then we are about 70/75 updates away from 1.0.

Obviously squad can come tomorrow with 0.45 and break the logical sequence they have been following.

I'm sorry, but calling that assumption "logical" only makes sense to me if the only previous exposure to software development you've had is learning how to count. If that's the case, my apologies - no offense intended.

The first release version of software is referred to as 1.0. KSP will be released at 1.0 the day Squad decides to stop calling it a work in progress, whether the dev version from the day before was called 0.99 or 0.22 makes no difference.

Edited October 17, 2013 by NeilC
typo

[Holo]

Do you understand what "following logical steps" means? Every update until now was a 0.1 increment, with a few exceptions. Following that stepping, then we are about 70/75 updates away from 1.0.

Obviously squad can come tomorrow with 0.45 and break the logical sequence they have been following.

Again, you have no idea how development increments work.

Squad could release 1.0 next update. That's because

0 is the major version

22 is the minor version

Each update squad does has incremented the minor version by 1. But one day, they could decide that what they've done is enough for a major version. So they reset the minor version counter, and increment the major version by 1.

Now that you know that development versions are not, in fact, decimal numbers, you can live a happier and more satisfying life.

[Person012345]

Yeah, what they said above. Btw, if they followed this "logical progression" for 75 more updates from 0.25 they would release version 0.100 not 1.0.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Person012345

[Person012345]

Edit: Double post. Damn internet.

[Nuke]

well i unlocked 2 research items and i already have jeb stranded on the mun. i dont think its a grind at all.