Ore is Overpowered

[Payload]

Well, I am going to have to disagree with assessment that Ore is over powered. It doesn't even work. Go ahead and try to actually mine some ore and convert it into fuel. I managed .3 Ore on Kerbin before the drill overheated permanently. I say THE drill because I actually had two of them. One went to 100% heat instantly when I folded it out. I wasn't even mining yet. For giggles I tried the converter and It ran for all of three seconds before it went to 100% heat and shut down. I am using Bill as the pilot and I have heatsink panels out the yazzoo.

[Linear]

Hopping in

Ore tweaking in the VAB is not an oversight. That is by design because players need to easily be able to test out mining and conversion rig designs.

Ore is not lighter than fuel - it's mass neutral. This is also by design due to the impact of a lossy conversion on other systems. No conservation of mass rules were violated in the creation of this feature.

I concur with the assessment that the tank mass should be adjusted to match corresponding LFO tanks (they are all at 89.99 as I recall). At that point, there is no mass benefit, only a resource density benefit (but heavier tanks offset this).

Beyond that - if you wish to make an Ore ship, rock on you will have to pay a tax for the ISRU module and it's power requirements, but that will be a lot less appealing if the tank mass ratio benefit is removed (see above).

Orbital and ground based refineries are equally viable because of Ore being mass neutral. Really boils down to playstyle, and I am ok with that (personally I will be doing ground refineries in my own save).

Ore is not overly valuable, it was not meant as a funds faucet - it's cheap as dirt. I expect mods will quickly fill the gap for people looking to use ISRU as funds generation. About the best you could do... in theory... is build a massive mining rig to convert Ore into LF (which is the most profitable of the potential products).

Given the work involved, and how far down the tech tree ISRU is, funds are not much of an issue that late in the game. But if someone wishes to play Kerbal Fuel Refinery Program, then by all means rock on and have fun with the legos

Yet another informative post. Yay.

[RoverDude]

The drill issue has already been identified and looked at

RE the mass of the equipment - I actually spent a lot of time reading NASA papers on ISRUs, looking at prototypes, etc. and feel the current weight requirements are fairly balanced.

RE Ore no longer being viable for orbital transfer - it will be exactly the same, including tank mass, to move Ore vs. converted LFO.

[TimePeriod]

Wouldn't ore be refined into only fraction of what we could use as "fuels" for the rocket?

Standard petrol is refined into a lot of fractions where's the standard gass (95/92 octane) is the most common. With RPK1 (kerosene) being the most common rocket fuel along with cryogenic hydrogen.

TL:DU (Too long, Didn't understand)

Crude oil gets refined into petrol but petrol is only 17% of the final number.

Ore gets refined into Fuel/oxidizer at what rate?

[Dr. Jet]

I actually spent a lot of time reading NASA papers on ISRUs, looking at prototypes, etc.

Didn't you notice in process that extraterrestrial ores while containing plenty of oxygen DO NOT contail noticable amounts of Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Carbon - the main components of any common liquid rocket fuel?

Edited April 29, 2015 by Dr. Jet

[RoverDude]

Wouldn't ore be refined into only fraction of what we could use as "fuels" for the rocket?

Standard petrol is refined into a lot of fractions where's the standard gass (95/92 octane) is the most common. With RPK1 (kerosene) being the most common rocket fuel along with cryogenic hydrogen.

TL:DU (Too long, Didn't understand)

Crude oil gets refined into petrol but petrol is only 17% of the final number.

Ore gets refined into Fuel/oxidizer at what rate?

Design choice was made to make this mass neutral due to conflicts with other systems.

Didn't you notice in process that extraterrestrial ores while containing plenty of oxygen DO NOT contail noticable amounts of Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Carbon - the main components of any known liquid rocket fuel?

Boy, good thing we were clever and used a really generic name to cover this then, one that simply described 'valuable stuff I can get from rocks' eh?

Also you may want to do a bit more of your own homework. Many plans for ISRU are in fact based on making propellant in-situ. Fortunately the resource terms are generic enough that an appropriate level of abstraction can be used.

- - - Updated - - -

(and a small addendum)

The best bit... if anyone wishes to handle ISRU in a different way from stock, all of the tools are there for you to do precisely that, and all via config editing.

[MacroNova]

Again that kills the whole concept of orbital refineries... unless ore is lighter than fuel then lifting ore off the surface is a pointless endeavor.

I don't agree. Orbital refineries are still going to be the standard for orbital refueling stations. The alternative is to ship the refined fuel into orbit, and then go back to the surface to get more. That means you're either lugging the refinery up and down each time (no thanks) or you have to dock your fuel tug with the refinery on the surface (an even bigger no thanks).

[Khobai]

I don't agree. Orbital refineries are still going to be the standard for orbital refueling stations

Not really. If ore is heavier than liquid fuel then you'd lose more deltaV transporting ore as opposed to converting it to fuel on the surface then transporting it.

[MacroNova]

Not really. If ore is heavier than liquid fuel then you'd lose more deltaV transporting ore as opposed to converting it to fuel on the surface then transporting it.

Okay, but I just read through the thread again and it seems that is not the case. Ore masses the same as fuel.

[Lord DC]

I like the system the way it is. Squad likely intended it to be an easy method of extending your mission range or refueling. How many times have you landed and not had enough fuel to make it back? not anymore. If your ship is heavy after converting and are still carting around ore, just dump it!

tl:dr the system is fine as it is.

Edit: saw RoverDude's post.

[sal_vager]

Resource mining was a very commonly requested feature, and was planned at one point but in an overdone and convoluted way

[Renegrade]

I or you have to dock your fuel tug with the refinery on the surface (an even bigger no thanks).

True! However, allow me to point out two things:

1. Fuel trucks can be easier to dock to move things between refineries and fuel tankers; only tricky bit is making sure docking ports are the right height off the ground (also I've done systems where docking at the surface between two space vessels was a requirement heh, not as hard as you might think)

2. KAS should have been stock (or an equivalent Squad system). Problem wouldn't have existed at all then. And it also works with fuel trucks.

#stockKASplease

[Dr. Jet]

Boy, good thing we were clever and used a really generic name to cover this then, one that simply described 'valuable stuff I can get from rocks' eh?

Nope. "Ore" is a crustal resource. And these type of recources IRL doesn't contain things you need for producing "liquid fuel". Unless you are on Earth/Kerbin/Other-planet-with-life and digging for organic produced fossiles like oil or natural gas.

Also you may want to do a bit more of your own homework.

Man... I worked as a school TEACHER about 12... yes, 12 years ago. How many years ago I have done my last "homework" I don't even remember.

My (maybe offending) tone is just a butthurt from seing carbon (and it's fantastic cousens "Karbonite", "Karborundum") everywhere occupying places where they never should be found.

Many plans for ISRU are in fact based on making propellant in-situ.

Of course they are. If you cannot make propellant - the whole idea of ISRU is almost worthless. BUT! Propellant-making in-situ is usually based on one of this assumptions:

- having water supply (ice in crust) for H2+O2 engine - there are very few places in Sol system where one can find it

- having both water supply and CO2 in atmosphere for CH4 + O2 engine - Mars(Duna) polar caps are OK site for this

- using previous resource scheme to produce methilene from methane then better liquid fuel from methilene (though closer to benzine then kerosene)

- having no sources of hydrogen and carbon, thus relying on crustal resources only (NASA proposal of Al + O2 hybrid engine)

Later one looks like that ORE->Fuel chain... but Al is not liquid and we have no Al+O2 engines except of KSPI mod.

There are also no ISRU projects involving hypergolic fuels production AFAIK. Nitrogen is not so easy to find... even in planets atmospheres.

Fortunately the resource terms are generic enough that an appropriate level of abstraction can be used.

Not everyone see THIS level of abstraction as appropriate...

Yes, I remember that this is just a game... but when last bits of realism and sanity are sacrificed to extreme simplicity... I just go nuts.

The best bit... if anyone wishes to handle ISRU in a different way from stock, all of the tools are there for you to do precisely that, and all via config editing.

Even atmospheric (and oceanic) resources not presented in stock? If "yes" - where can I find a specification?

P.S. Don't take all this as personal offend. Just a hard day.

[goldenpsp]

Dr. Jet you certainly are a piece of work.

My favorite is this gem

Yes, I remember that this is just a game... but when last bits of realism and sanity are sacrificed to extreme simplicity... I just go nuts.

I'm frankly amazed you even play a game about little green me who apparently don't need to eat, drink, breath, sleep, or take a s**t and build their rockets like legos that can easily get them to all areas of their local solar system.

[hazens1]

I say leave it to the modders to take the game into painfully realistic territory and leave the core game just real enough to be fun for all ages and we should all be fine

[RoverDude]

hazens1, that was pretty much the intent

[Khobai]

And these type of recources IRL doesn't contain things you need for producing "liquid fuel".

Sure they do. Hydrogen can and is used as a rocket fuel. And hydrogen is the most abundant element there is.

The main problem with hydrogen as a fuel (aside from the fact youd have to be insane to use hydrogen as a fuel in the first place- see Hindenburg) is that liquid hydrogen evaporates away pretty quickly so it cant be stored long term. It wouldnt be much good for trips that take months or years.

[Dr. Jet]

I'm frankly amazed you even play a game about little green me who apparently don't need to eat, drink, breath, sleep, or take a s**t and build their rockets like legos that can easily get them to all areas of their local solar system.

TAC LS, man. TAC LS. Quite good mix of simplicity and realism to be playable. And modular rocket construction is used IRL. Just look at Angara launchers - aren't they a kind of "Lego"?

Stock game gives you few days of excitement at it's best, heavily modded (Realism Overhaul pack for example) gives you months of excitement.

Just think gameplaywise - what is more interesting:

- Dumb launches of crafts which can refuel themself ANYWHERE.

or

- complex missions to search for certain resources then carefully planning landing sites and even organising tranport chains to make things running?

RoverDude did a great job with MKS resource usage (with exception for nonrealistic Karborundum). It was tricky to find good places to make a base and that was fun. I hoped to see the same in stock, but... "Drop anywhere and squeeze your fuel from barren rock"... That's very... disappointing.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure they do. Hydrogen can and is used as a rocket fuel. And hydrogen is the most abundant element there is.

The main problem with hydrogen as a fuel (aside from the fact youd have to be insane to use hydrogen as a fuel in the first place- see Hindenburg) is that liquid hydrogen evaporates away pretty quickly so it cant be stored long term. It wouldnt be much good for trips that take months or years.

Exactly! And it is not as abundant as most people think. Noone wants to wait for centuries capturing hydrogen from solar wind. In fact finding good amounts of hydrogen, especially on atmosphereless bodies, is quite tricky. In imaginable "Realistic KSP" that would lead to missions like "capture a small C-type asteroid then carefully land it near your Mun base to supply life support systems".

Edited April 30, 2015 by Dr. Jet

[Shisouka]

You know the Top 5 ingredients of the universe as far as we know?

#1 Hydrogen

#2 Helium

#3 Oxygen

#4 Carbon

#5 Nitrogen

Dont you ever dare to say that Hydrogen isn't abundant. It's everywhere.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Ore needs to be made heavier and more expensive than fuel.

I agree with the "heavier"-part but not with making ore more expensive than the end-product.

[Shisouka]

I agree with the "heavier"-part but not with making ore more expensive than the end-product.

Actually the ore could contain stuff like Helium-3, then it would be more valueable than just the ammount of fuel.

[Cdr_Zeta]

Hello,

Since this is my forte in KSP I am shedding a bit of light and have even made changes to reflect more correct density values...

I read the posts and dont really get a gander of the whole problem....disregarding weights and masses of tanks which I will look into later...I am fixing/changing Squad densities right off the bat......

RESOURCE_DEFINITION

{

name = LiquidFuel

density = 0.005

unitCost = 0.8

hsp = 2010

flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH

transfer = PUMP

isTweakable = true

}

RESOURCE_DEFINITION

{

name = Oxidizer

density = 0.005

unitCost = 0.18

hsp = 1551

flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH

transfer = PUMP

isTweakable = true

}

Now mind you this is 'MY' KSP SIM - you all can make your own informed decisions...

Below are the real world density equivalents; mind you that the conversions do not specify as LqdHydrogen to be the only liquid fuel (!); there 'NEEDS' to be a 'Module' to convert the fuel components to their respective Liquid Fuel counterpart....

RESOURCE_DEFINITION

{

name = LqdHydrogen // General propellant, used for high thrust electric engines

density = 0.000070849

unitCost = 0.5

flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH

transfer = PUMP

isTweakable = true

}

RESOURCE_DEFINITION

{

name = LqdOxygen // General propellant, used for high thrust electric engines

density = 0.0011412

unitCost = 0.5

flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH

transfer = PUMP

isTweakable = true

}

For the most part Oxidizer is LqdOxygen...no problemo...

I cant say that all Liquid Fuel has a density of LqdHydrogen; lets look at other fuel sources not counting Monopropellant which thankfully can be separate (!): Well densities are all over the place - consider Argon and Xenon gas........maybe we can limit to Liquid Forms; and there really arent many...so for the time being Hydrogen will be the main component of Liquid Fuel. Since D = M/V ... all tanks should be created equal...not per se harr.

I dont know what problems there are with tanks; I have yet to even work on Fuel Systems Resource Management, Mining, etc etc...

Yes converting Ore to Fuel...I wont even go there; and I wouldnt be surprised if Squad is using REGO Resource conversion; UGH...not saying it's a bad thing; just...gads cant even think of the word...a mess to work with in writing modules for resource conversion; I use Kethane (!)...

Solid Fuel should be heavier obviously...I need to look into the real world density conversions and resources for solid fuels; these ditty's provide more power fast but burn at a higher rate etc and overheat etc...

So I make those changes now guess what; my rockets are all gonna be lighter and this will throw off everything in my game...well we know volume...so all that is left are the tank masses...make the D=M/V the same and the game is back to normal but you can move fuel around better...I guess; so now I have to look at the tanks...OR look at D/V values and get them right; they said D/V doesnt change...ya..ok...

As for Ore density...

density = 0.01 seems fine...most metals are in the 0.002+ ranges which are lighter as they are refined.

I look as substrate as being a compendium of chemicals as well, so it's density is more than that of chemicals; 0.008 and 0.005 respectively; water being 0.001 as a guide.

This may sound confusing but it is what I use; the Community Resource Project is also the basis from where I started; I need to send them a copy of my resource cfg again.

So you can see now my rockets are gonna be lighter and I havnt even started playing the game; I do know yes I made a 3-stager to get to orbit and had 50 units of fuel left; no boosters; I will re-use that as my guide for those tanks; this is the main reason I dont use D/V for testing (yet!); that can invlove atmosphere, drag, and is supposed to take those things into account now in 1.0...enter in the real world...but how close is Kerbin modelled after Earth !!??

Cmdr Zeta

[Caelib]

IMO, Ore is not overpowered when you consider the cost and logistics of getting everything in-place. There needs to be some incentive to have a refueling station and if it is just as much work to process ore then people will just use old-school methods.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Caelib

[tomf]

I think of ore as being pure water ice. It can be processed into useable fuels wih great mass efficiency is found all over the solar system and is a pretty standard ISRU resource. However the idea of amking a profit my going to the moon and mining it of water to bring back to earth is laughable. If you want a valuable resource that you can mine (³HE etc) then it looks like it will be easy for a mod to add that.

[TimePeriod]

Ore is not overpowered, its an option.

Option A

Launch everything at once from KSP to reach your desired destination.

(Fixed amount of fuel)

or

Launch a refinery+support equipment and then launch the main spacecraft to its destination.

(Extended/unlimited amount of fuel)

Pro:

More range.

Less cost in fuel.

Con:

Refinery costs money to setup.

More player action required.

You are paying for the ability to refuel your spacecraft.