Rovers...what for?

[kerbyourenthusiasm]

With the holidays right around the corner I'm looking forward to further expand my little carreer game in the interplanetary sphere. So flying to Duna, Moho, Eve etc with Probes first, scanning the biomes and after that the first kerbaled landings to harvest more science.

Which brings me to the main topic. In an actual carrer game, do you use rovers as a measure to cover different biomes and get more science by landing, or is it just a cosmetic / humorous gimmick to drive around and try some stunts? If your choice is the first, to what extend to you have the patience to drive around on the surface.(And is it a probe-rover or is it piloted by a kerbal).

Looking forward to some ideas on how to actually use rovers in the game then.

Cheers!

[Sirad]

Rovers have use (arrrr)

Last week i landed at Tylo with my current 1.05 career and rovered 2 RL Days around to cross 4 Biomes and Take the Science. So Rovers make sense. Resuming i could say, rovers are a Pain and the hardest thing to do if it comes to bigger distances. (i drove ~ 500 km at Tylo....) Nothing harder than Driving Rover. You need *Patience*. Patience.

'traveling around the World via Continental drift' may appeal like 'hurrying around'.

Be Prepared to Flip over. Anyone knows the Bread always falls on the Marmalade Side Mechanic ?

 

[softweir]

If one manages to land a ship near the corners of three or more biomes then a single rover could check out all of them. To do that without a rover you would need to launch three rockets or land a ship with enough excess fuel to do jumps to the other biomes.

[Damien_The_Unbeliever]

I find it oddly calming to sometimes take a few hours and just move a rover around to complete a ground survey or (as you suggest) cover multiple biomes. It gives the game a different "pace" for a while.

[MrOsterman]

I'm not sure how I managed it but I'm almost done with my tech tree and I've never once used a rover.  I have had multiple Mun and Minmus landings, I've got a station in orbit of Ike and landers I use to bring up ore for it.  Between slapping science units on my mining landers, and using all data as fodder for my science stations I've never really felt a need to drive around Biomes for variety.  It seems I've just gotten very lucky with landing in a variety of biomes with my stations and with miners.

I'm also happily patient.   I'll land a base on the Mun, collect some science, turn it into Science Lab data and then transmit it.  Seems to set me up pretty well.

[Warzouz]

27 minutes ago, softweir said:

If one manages to land a ship near the corners of three or more biomes then a single rover could check out all of them. To do that without a rover you would need to launch three rockets or land a ship with enough excess fuel to do jumps to the other biomes.

If you land near 3 biomes, you can hop there, it's not very expensive (except on Tylo/Eve) but much quicker. Bringing down a rover have its cost too.

I'm also questioning he use of rover. Design is quite hard and piloting is not as fun as it could be.

Even though, I'll give it a try on 1.1.

[iLikeRovers]

Welcome kerbyourenthusiasm!

If you look at it from an efficiency point of view, you can use ion drive landers to hop around the various biomes on small low g worlds without worrying too much about fuel reserves. But larger worlds (and those with atmospheres) you need a normal rocket to fight gravity (and air) to hop around and fuel becomes a much bigger problem. It can also be difficult to control, especially on Tylo!

So either you use a ISRU to mine for more fuel every time you land or save a load of weight by having a electric rover that essentially has unlimited range.

So if you've managed to land on Mün, try making a design that will detach a rover from the lander. Don't forget to test the rover around the space centre. It doesn't matter if you use a probe core, strap a seat on or a cabin, you choose!

Of course you can do not so serious missions...

[kerbyourenthusiasm]

Appreciate the feedback so far. So my inital guesses where right. Myself I've clocked ~250+hrs in the game but I never saw the need for rovers like Osterman. But giving the recreational aspect combined with the ability with mechjeb to land more or less accurate I might give it a more serious try. 

 

[Temstar]

Some places like Eve are not practical for suborbital hop to go to different biomes, for those a rover is useful. Eve just happens to also be good for rover driving due to it's high gravity and solar energy flux.

[Just Jim]

Good timing, I just landed my Chariot heavy rover on the Mun yesterday.  I remade this from one I made before 1.0.5 came out and I restarted my game. It's fully self sufficient, runs off two large fuel cells, plus has a small back-up solar panel.  It holds a crew of 5, plus two outside seats over the cab.  She has 8800 electric, 720 liquid fuel, 880 oxidizer, and 760 monopropellant, plus she can store 150 ore.  She also has the larger drill and IRCU unit to drill and refuel herself whenever needed. There is also a narrow band scanner on top, so she can find the best spots to drill.

She has 2 large R/W's and is ringed with RCS and vernier thrusters to keep her stable.  With these she can handle slops of nearly 30 degrees and stay on the ground.  And she can brake as hard as possible without flipping. Top safe speed is about 15 m/s.  Range depends on how much or little fuel for the thrusters are needed.... the fuel cells take very little fuel by themselves.

Her mission is to explore and scout the Mun, and other planets and moons later, to find the best spot to build a Munbase.

[FancyMouse]

My rover wheels are currently only used for these situations

1. Maintaining a base - mostly used with a claw. Carry fuel/life supply/anything around.

2. Last few meters after a sub-orbital hop.

3. Non-serious stuff.

[Guest]

FUN! FUN! FUN!

[Snarfster]

25 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Good timing, I just landed my Chariot heavy rover on the Mun yesterday.  I remade this from one I made before 1.0.5 came out and I restarted my game. It's fully self sufficient, runs off two large fuel cells, plus has a small back-up solar panel.  It holds a crew of 5, plus two outside seats over the cab.  She has 8800 electric, 720 liquid fuel, 880 oxidizer, and 760 monopropellant, plus she can store 150 ore.  She also has the larger drill and IRCU unit to drill and refuel herself whenever needed. There is also a narrow band scanner on top, so she can find the best spots to drill.

She has 2 large R/W's and is ringed with RCS and vernier thrusters to keep her stable.  With these she can handle slops of nearly 30 degrees and stay on the ground.  And she can brake as hard as possible without flipping. Top safe speed is about 15 m/s.  Range depends on how much or little fuel for the thrusters are needed.... the fuel cells take very little fuel by themselves.

Her mission is to explore and scout the Mun, and other planets and moons later, to find the best spot to build a Munbase.

Mind sharing a craft file?  

[Just Jim]

5 minutes ago, Snarfster said:

Mind sharing a craft file?  

I suppose, but I don't know how you do that.

Also, it's really huge when you add the rocket delivery system

Edited December 22, 2015 by Just Jim

[Snarfster]

Just put the .craft file from your save directory somewhere where it's downloadable.

What's the weight on that thing? (takeoff)

[Francois424]

I use rovers to collect Biomes on moons/planets.

I usually drop a crew of 2-3 (4-5 in case of bringing a science lab, but not required anymore), and pick them up once all biomes have been acquired.  Planning a route is essential, but I seldom study a Biome map before exploring a planet/moon as I feel guessing is half the fun as well ! (DUNA Craters had me go for 3 hours until I game up and looked it up... Let's say no amount of craters would do... lol)

You don't have to do Rovers in KSP, but I feel it's half the fun !   So I build rovers to be tough and be able to handle 20-30 m/s (for sanity's sake). On Moho I was limited to about 15 m/s because of the rugged terrain tho, and I assume some worlds will be more challenging (Laythe, Tekto, Eve).  Yes, it takes a long time, but I don't shy away from a good 30-60min drive every now and then.  Most recent patch(well maybe since 1.0) has messed-up the reaction wheels AND docking mode, making rovers have too much torque when hitting the key to go forward or not doing anything (docking mode)... hopefully Squad implements driving throttle or driving mode; that would make driving on the ground so much easier, because on low-G worlds is a major pain.

So far I've successfully got all Biomes with rovers on Mun, Minmus, and Duna(with an ISRU rover VERY close to JustJim's, both in performance and accessories). I did rove a lot on POL too, but that was before Biomes.
I am developing both a boatplane Rover (finished as of yesterday but missing electric propeller or compressed air thrusters... concept works with "unlimited fuel" cheat on tho).
You've seen my thread on "Identifying parts", that's my next project for Tekto and Laythe (and most likely Eve as well, and any future atmospheric bodies with rivers of water/other liquids).

Really love "roving" around tho !

[Just Jim]

1 hour ago, Snarfster said:

Just put the .craft file from your save directory somewhere where it's downloadable.

What's the weight on that thing? (takeoff)

where it's downloadable???

[Mister Dilsby]

2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

where it's downloadable???

I recommend kerbalx.com. 

[Geschosskopf]

5 hours ago, kerbyourenthusiasm said:

Which brings me to the main topic. In an actual carrer game, do you use rovers as a measure to cover different biomes and get more science by landing, or is it just a cosmetic / humorous gimmick to drive around and try some stunts? If your choice is the first, to what extend to you have the patience to drive around on the surface.(And is it a probe-rover or is it piloted by a kerbal).

To me, rovers are a specialized type of vehicle good for certain conditions and worse than useless for others.  Their purpose is to move Kerbals and/or stuff around on a planet, which means they're in direct competition with aircraft and rockets.  In this competition, rovers have 2 severe limitations:  low speed for safe travel and a strong tendency to crash even at apparently safe speeds due to glitches in the terrain.   This means that it's quite often much faster and considerably safer to fly rather than drive, especially if the local terrain is all jagged, increasing the likelihood of rover wrecks.  There are only a few instances where driving is better than flying, such as:

• The dV cost of hopping a lander around the planet is ridiculous, and there's no atmosphere to fly a plane in.  This certianly applies to Tylo and, to some extent depending on the frequency of trips and the mass carried, Moho, Ike, Dres, and Eeloo.  It does not apply to Mun due to the harshness of the countless craters, nor Vall due to all the mountains.  Eve, Kerbin, Duna, and Laythe all have atmospheres that allow getting around with wings.  The other moons have such low gravity that hopping a lander is easy and keeping rover wheels in contact with the ground is hard.
• The need is to move a heavy mass a short distance on a fairly regular basis.  For example, you have an ISRU/drill/fuel tank rover sitting in a big-ish flat area of good ore.  Ships land somewhere in this area, the rover drives to them and drills/refines on the spot.
• Getting science from all the KSC buildings early in career games.
• Doing an Elcano challenge just for the heck of it.

There are a few borderline cases.  Duna is actually pretty good rover country and it's fun to go jumping off the moguls.  However, since 1.0.4 it's been so easy to fly on Duna that there's no real reason to drive there these days.  Moho, Dres, Ike, and Eeloo don't need THAT much dV to hop around on, and getting landers to another planet is easier than getting rovers to the same place.  So with these it's more a matter of taste.

[wibou7]

4 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Top safe speed is about 15 m/s. 

 

So about 30 minutes to drive about 20 km... I don't have that patience.

I always considered rovers to be near to useless, except for very specific application (i.e. you landed right at the corner of 3 biomes).
Biome hoppers will do a much better job, except for 2 of the bodies in the Kerbol system (i.e. Eve and Tylo).

 

[lordlundar]

Well I usually use them for transport between ship and base for those times where "close" means under 1km.

 

Also for getting sick air off a hill on minmus.

[Francois424]

42 minutes ago, wibou7 said:

So about 30 minutes to drive about 20 km... I don't have that patience.

I always considered rovers to be near to useless, except for very specific application (i.e. you landed right at the corner of 3 biomes).
Biome hoppers will do a much better job, except for 2 of the bodies in the Kerbol system (i.e. Eve and Tylo).

 

Well, if I design a rover to be a speedcar I have been able to drive at 50m/s for good periods of time, but the rover needed to be ultra-light so no science package, no ISRU, no heavy cockpits, and no rugged terrain.
My un-manned 0.25 "Opportunity Spirit" rover (a look-alike of her namesake), was able to do that and survive an impressive amount of beating.
However the more heavy the rover, the more careful you have to be.

Ideally (IMHO and as of 1.0), a rover needs the following: 
 - A place to store experiments, so a command pod or a mod like science containers, or a modded part to act as a storage device (easy to do).
 - Retractable Jet Wheels as they are more durable and have more ground clearance.
 - Rugged Wheels for traction and acceleration... unless you use ant engines for that, but you need an ISRU setup for re-fueling (or electric props / compressed air thrusters). 
 - The obvious science package (Science Jr, Goo, Barometer, Seismometer, Graviolly, Thermometer, and the Air sample thing that looks like an air duct), and (optional) an antenna. 
 - Some means of electrical generation, a few RTG will do or a bunch of flat solar panels (or retractable ones).
 - You also need a cockpit for crew reports (and realism but not required in stock).
 - Remote control pod is always good... your pilot may go outside or you might not have a pilot... SAS makes for much safer driving and saved my backside very often... And you can have them 'control from here'. useful.
 - I *strongly, strongly* suggest one of the largest reaction wheel per ton.  I usually do with less myself, but it helps to keep your rover alive in difficult to drive terrains. Life saver here as well.
 - Extend your wheels forward and back, left and right... Hexagonal pattern 2 - 2 - 2.  On larger rovers such as an ISRU rover like Jim's I usually go with 8 or 10 wheels for both redundancy and stability.  You want your wheels to be 1 meter outside of your rover in all 4 direction if you can/want to be as stable as possible.
 - The rover needs to be as flat as possible.  Tall rovers are a bad idea, generally.

I might be forgetting important stuff, but these where for a land-based rover.
When you want a faster rover, it gets harder very quickly !

Edited December 22, 2015 by Francois424

[cantab]

Rovers are good for moving relatively short distances with high precision. There are contracts clearly aimed at rovers, asking you to take a bunch of experimental readings all on the ground at sites close together. Refuelling trucks for ISRU setups, and indeed ground base work in general, are also jobs for rovers. And there's always running around the KSC buildings scrounging science.

They are slow for moving long distances, which makes them generally not very good for hitting multiple biomes on a body because biomes are large, unless you just want to do a long drive for the heck of it.

[Just Jim]

2 hours ago, wibou7 said:

So about 30 minutes to drive about 20 km... I don't have that patience.

I always considered rovers to be near to useless, except for very specific application (i.e. you landed right at the corner of 3 biomes).
Biome hoppers will do a much better job, except for 2 of the bodies in the Kerbol system (i.e. Eve and Tylo).

 

No, they're not fast.  If you're just out for science Biome hopping is probably faster, yes.

Personally I find I like roving as a break, something different from rockets and jets. 
Roving the Mun, with it's steep mountains and craters, is a whole different kind of challenge.
And there are surprisingly awesome landscapes... and Munscapes, if you will... to be discovered.

 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Just Jim

[322997am]

20 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

No, they're not fast.  If you're just out for science Biome hopping is probably faster, yes.

Personally I find I like roving as a break, something different from rockets and jets. 
Roving the Mun, with it's steep mountains and craters, is a whole different kind of challenge.
And there are surprisingly awesome landscapes... and Munscapes, if you will... to be discovered.

 

Your pics have inspired me to drive to the far monolith.

But rovers, for me are just for sandbox saves just to drive and enjoy the scenery and plan but in career it's a waste.