Kerbin vonKerbal

Kerbal Train Discussion

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Please emerge from the darkness.

I've seen some of your posts a time or two, and I was thinking about trying my hand at trains in KSP for Kerbin land based contracts. I'm always trying to change up my play style as to keep the game interesting and trains next on my to-do list.

Anybody can feel free to add to this, I just know off the top of my head that there's a certain user here somewhere who builds nothing BUT trains. :wink:

Edited by Kerbin vonKerbal

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Everyone loves trains!

Overland has inspired me to explore Kerbin from the ground.

I see no need for any player who enjoys the game to "emerge from the darkness", because in truth everyone enjoys this game for their own reasons.

I hope that you enjoy the train on your to do list, just give a nod to Overland for the inspiration. 

Happy flying, or whatever.

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How can you tell if someone drives trains instead of flying planes and/or rockets in KSP?

 

Don't worry, they'll tell ya :wink:

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12 minutes ago, SorryDave said:

I see no need for any player who enjoys the game to "emerge from the darkness", because in truth everyone enjoys this game for their own reasons.

I think he meant that more in a "show up here so I can talk to you" sort of way.

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His name is @Overland, he's 'special'. ;):D

 

I love the way he uses KSP.

Edit: if Kerbin ever gets named regions, I put forth the motion that Overland gets to suggest them. No one is more intimately familiar with all nooks and cranny's of Kerbin. Most of us just drop down and recover. Very few take the time and efford to appriciate the vista's.

Edited by OrtwinS

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Its not just me :) theres plenty more obscure train drivers of kerbin and beyond.. Im...just past the shadowy stage..where I freely admit KSP has what it takes to become the ultimate train simulator..although currently focused on land trains :)

Ask what you want to know and ill do my best to answer..hopefully too others of the KTP brethren will appear from the shadows

It does take dedication though and a bit of modding.

But it was the reason I brought a joystick post flightsim 90s..

Then delighted to use my xbox wheel to drive trains

 

Youll learn alot about how a machine handles driving with a wheel.. Expect thousands to die horribly..with hundreds of trains you grow a bond with being lost in terrible ways..some so soul draining youll question WHY you do the train thing when rockets are safer..

 

In the end its an experience..one that grows its own culture youll be proud of :)

 

Welcome to Kerbal Train Program

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1 hour ago, Overland said:

Its not just me :) theres plenty more obscure train drivers of kerbin and beyond.. Im...just past the shadowy stage..where I freely admit KSP has what it takes to become the ultimate train simulator..although currently focused on land trains :)

Ask what you want to know and ill do my best to answer..hopefully too others of the KTP brethren will appear from the shadows

It does take dedication though and a bit of modding.

But it was the reason I brought a joystick post flightsim 90s..

Then delighted to use my xbox wheel to drive trains

 

Youll learn alot about how a machine handles driving with a wheel.. Expect thousands to die horribly..with hundreds of trains you grow a bond with being lost in terrible ways..some so soul draining youll question WHY you do the train thing when rockets are safer..

 

In the end its an experience..one that grows its own culture youll be proud of :)

 

Welcome to Kerbal Train Program

Glad to see you made it! I guess I didn't really have any one specific question, more so just wanted some general guidance. Maybe some of the rules that are universal in the way you build your trains, or something that was a big problem in the beginning for you. Whatever you feel like sharing. :)

 

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1.1+ is a strange thing, for trains the physics updates and shift to unity 5 has ment good things.. I can drive longer trains on my aging athlon dual core rig, so I assume anyone with a superior computer could do longer trains.. but there lies the problem too. its land trains we're driving here not their railbound cousins.. which.. have rails for a reason.. in a similar way even real world landtrains such as the LLC-1 and US army's Overland Train all needed custom steering of the rear wagons to prevent them cutting corners

(yes thats a jeep on the first wagon, its rather..big)

l4RtgXM.jpg

 

its largely prevented now with the steering drawbar using the infernal robotics spinning docking washer, a free turning pivot point to mount wheels on so they automaticly follow the lead wagon.. still though.. the longer the train the more care is needed.. corners need to be planned well in advanced and even with a fully braked train.. any sudden stops or attempted so. can rip off couplings and wheelsets.. the steering wheel I use is almost a requirement due to the wide sweeping turns needed along with the quick actions needed to stablise the rear wagon that might be tracking badly.. something that can lead to the loss of the entire train as it rolls over much like a catepillar thats been sprayed with flyspray.. except this one explodes, violently.. start small, work your way up.. its a whole new thing learning to drive a land train

 

vRS04Mi.jpg

im still in the experimentation stage myself having basicly started again.. for stock-ish trains I highly recommend my current train of choice, the Puma Rover by 2.0 industries or its unrelated yet similar cousin the buffalo rover, both use underside mounted wheel blocks, which can lend themselves to pivot via the infernal robotics docking washer (free moving) and each has their own cargo choices and multi roles as well as tracking superbly 

 

gyC7wo6.jpg

 

A3Pme7L.jpg

 

the buffalo herself  having custom wheels that help greatly that are less fussy than default stock wheels that ive had to modify extensively

 

Initially much like the first generation of landliner train a few years back... the easiest motive power method might be a jet propelled locomotive using small jets mounted on pylons, as you can control the speed of the engines easily and settle down to near idle once the trains upto speed.. all of which should be compatable with current career and non sandbox applications

Such as an early (good looking) 2014 example of my later series trijet landliner that only used the electric motors for yard use, and cruised on jet power most of the other times.. they use a micro turbine that comes with the Kerbinov Kn-2 Cockpit as part of the pack .. useful little thing that dates back to 0.25

FH3KPLH.jpg

 

Finally Sam Hall's wonderful Kn-2 cockpit is an almost stock lookalike of something that by all rights should have been made stock years ago if he didnt disapear into the ether.. for a train it maintains a semi realistic look. has great visbility and has become the standard of which ive set most of my trains by its IVA is useful and possible to drive exclusively in.. giving a more realistic experience..

its under the Kerbinov Pack on curse

 

the Puma rover uses the default mark 1 cockpit in a new package.. it fits well. the Buffalo rover also has its own custom IVA.. depending on how serious you are about trains.. its all about the cab experience :)

 

Feel free to fire off any ideas or questions.. dont be shy.. this stuff took me 2 real world years to .....make civilised.. not to perfect. there still deadly.. murderous contraptions that have no safety record to speak of and only lists of dead crew that were unfortunate enough to draw the short straw vs the lucky people in space bound explosive rockets.. atleast half the time the later lives to tell the tale :)

Ive recently constructed the first generation of 40 class locomotive, a relative of the original 40 class long hood road shunters.. before I start modifying parts, painting things, spending hours, days.. fiddling about with power requirements and suchlike to work out a crude diesel electric system with generator..

here she is in her raw form...

 

jsj2ru6.jpg

and one final thing. avoid docking ports wherever possible.. they tempt the kraken.. 1.1 is even worse than 1.04 for messing up the IVA view if you happen to couple the wrong way..  KAS/KIS magnets work much better if you need to couple at all.. but for ease of operation lately ive simply gone with permanently coupled trains.. in a career game bringing the whole unit back minus her cargo. im sure would be more cost effective too :)

 

 

 

Links of Reference -

Puma Rover System - https://spacedock.info/mod/590/Version_2.0%20Industries%20Rover%20Pack.

Buffalo Rover -

Sam Hall's Kn-2 Kerbinov Pack - (Cockpit)

http://mods.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/220999-kerbonov-parts-pack

Infernal Robotics (includes docking washer used for pivoting)

 

(Optional but highly recomended)

http://mods.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/221310-rover-wheel-sounds

Rover Wheelsound mod, adds motor sounds, explosion sounds when wheels pop and suchlike, easily editable to include non stock wheels)

 

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That's fantastic information, all of it. I'm glad you mentioned docking ports as that was my first thought in how to attach cars to eachother. I'll be sure to look into the mods you mentioned, and I'll update you with some of my builds as they come into play. 

Edited by Kerbin vonKerbal

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@Overland have you experimented using this kind of articulation?

1.jpg

In case it isn't obvious, each pair of wagons is sharing a bogey-truck and the wagons basically become the draw-bar between trucks. This gives you a nice short wheelbase per carriage, good for tight turns (tho maybe not as good as a steering axle :wink: ).

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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Ive tried similar recently but havent given it a dedicated go..I will on weekend as saving wheels saves framerates. The 1 to 2 mark 1 engine adaptor might work

In my short experience though too much articulation is a bad thing :) nice for corners... But not so much for stopping

The train tied itself in knots like a slinky spring :)

Squad never envisioned that rockets coliding with itself while still connected would be a thing

In that its possible to....drive through.. Ones own train and even fold several carriages into itself.. Possibly having great transport uses but other than angering the first class passengers when the 3rd class carriage rudely melds with one another..

Not so good for trains :)

With the 1x1 steering drawbar then fixed wheelset..it helps track straight too

So does the 4 wheels per bogey vs 2..

What used to work with rigid springy kraken bait docking ports seems to tempt fate with steering drawbars :)

You end up with a train that looks remarkably like ZZZZZZ in shape trying to regulate speed on hills

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@Overland I have a new respect for your playstyle. This evening I tried to put together something to showcase what I suggested above: only 2 wagons and it was a nightmare! I had the back of the train -unpowered- overtaking the front!

I've put a lot of hours into rail-sims in recent years, so I ought to know what I'm doing with a train, but this is a totally different game. Without the tracks to keep everything in line, nothing wants to stay where it belongs. How in Kraken's name do you keep the back behind the front without togglable brakes?!

Edit: Aha! Airbrakes! :D

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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:) air brakes are easy to make sound wise..ant engine with no fuel toggled with the brake actiongroup...you get the audible failure hiss

Current designs have all wheels on the locomotive powered but unarticulated.. The front two steer conventionally and only the first wheelset of each wagon can pivot on the docking washer. 

 

The pattern repeats so the rear of that wagon has fixed non pivoting bogeys

 

This means while the wagon can follow its friend infront..its being directed from the fixed bogey drawbar and the pivot point is its own pivoting bogey..

An idea I got from the logging land train and dotto land trains

muson-river1.jpg

7249e157f508b15e9bae74ed5b8ab0f3.jpg

 

Im on a bus right now headed to work but ill make a video tonight

 

In the past too only the locomotive was powered.. With generators powering wheels..giving a stable power curve and realistic transmission that responded to engine RPM via alternator

Sadly with recent developments the whole train for the moment is powered and.braked.. Realworld land trains were.. So thier more related to thier snow conquering cold war sistertrains than any trackless railway train

For more railway like Id recomend the use of a guardsvan (rear most wagon) with very good brakes to keep the train docile :)

 

Speed also kills.. Modern land trains such as dotto trams are slow for a good reason

10464963663_2e465e0ebd.jpg

20-30kph at most

 

30ms is around 110kph.. At this speed its easy for a train to lose its footing as carriages fly around and explode...turning passengers green in the face..eyes bulging in fear..

In the realworld as well as KSP :)

Generally 30 is maximum speed..even 31 invites death to draw closer.. Thats why in most videos youll see me slow down around that speed..

 

 

With 1.1 too..

All this is new again and while ive got handling experience.. Im as new as everyone else here..so its nice to see it becoming a wider reaching thing more than niche :)

Edited by Overland

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This is why I love KSP. While I'm landing SSTOs on Laythe, Overland is driving trains across Kerbin.

Name another game that allows that.

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Truly fascinating Overland, it's very interesting to see others who do completely different things with their Space Program.  One would imagine going to space being the only real objective, but it is quite evident that their can be far more to it than what meets the eye. 

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@Overland here's a little update as of tonight... I tried. I got as far as a locomotive, which didn't perform too badly itself except when it came to turns. Granted I tried turning at roughly 30m/s, but it instantly flipped. Will try again tomorrow. :cool:

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I made a really cool looking 8-car InterCity train from Mk3 SP parts, using the same IR washers as @Overland, but the thing is really really slow and so heavy the wheels keep busting even crossing tile boundaries around KSC. :(

Edit: I've found using trim controls (alt+wsad in Windows) makes a half-decent substitute for true analog steering. My train is awesome as long as going over 5m/s isn't your thing XD

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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Ahh..your using keyboard.. Try hitting capslock to enable fine control too :)

Or you could try installing front wheels seperately and action group to brake left or right on the control cab..i needed to do that post 1.2 when docking ports got more rigid..we also have reverse now that you can turn on and off wheel power too for steering :)

Can we see your train? :)

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Sure, here you go :) (turns out it was only a 6-car set when I saved it!)

I think my main downfalls are being too massive and complicated. The train has over 430 parts and weighs nearly 320t! But it does have seating for about 400 passengers... (ps. sorry they're all night shots!)

Edit: I've just been looking at my own pictures and it hit me how obvious it is what I need to do - I need to upgrade from 4-wheel trucks to 6-wheel trucks. Doi! :rolleyes:

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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Hello.  Just happened to stumble upon this.  I made a train once.. (Overland isn't the only one). Also..  @GregroxMun!

Edited by Ival70

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Indeed im not :) theres a whole lot of "Train nuts" that grace kerbin and beyond

@The_Rocketeer

Huia0sD.jpg

 A double ended train with 2 cabs is realistic and practical for us..but while we see prototypical trains

In the krakens eyes.. It appears rather tasty

f8bcf68a15d720e647dd2a9eaaf72cce.jpgKSP has a problem with 2 cabs on a connected vessel..im that if you go on rough terrain..the IVA on one of the cabs detaches ( rear mostly ) and you become seasick.. The walls of immersive gameplay comes crashing down..and your not able to see the ground.... In its place..able to see your train...from.. Your train and generally be not very nice :)

It can be overcome though :) using non docked KAS magnets itll still be a seperate craft and wont tempt the IVA kraken..unfortunately with it any multiple unit operations also disapear as will a fully braked train

The solution is unconventional..but worthy.. In that an external command seat and unlucky kerbal can drive the train from the other end..manuvering enough for a Wye junction..

 

That said kerbin is a wide open place..turning a full 180 degree change in a train can be both a test of her abilities.. A test for hetrdriver.. Also something quite beautiful as the train curves like a defensive milipede then straightens out facing the world ahead ready for another battle on the now familiar path home

 

On the subject of mark 3 trains..i use mark 1s or rovers for a reason..

Unlike the realworld where narrow gauge is a rough..cheap and obscure practise.. While broadgauge is superior

The opposite is true for Kerbin

Even with the most careful crew..theres a big world beyond the decievingly flat surrounds of the KSC..

Part of the skill even with a train built is scanning the horizon for danger..best route to take..what to avoid and quick actions to avert a derailment

Expect a train to be accidently airborne..slamming down with more force than a fully laden cargo plane..general abuse of duty and the like

 

For those only seen kerbin from the air id recomend a flight at no more than 500 feet to scout out the route.. The nasty stuff starts past the mountains

If it were blue and wet youd call it a stormy sea..hurricane level wake peaks..with.the occasional eye of the storm deceptively calm before another challenge :)

 

All up its a beautiful thing..although you will kill thousands.. Before its ready for the road

 

See KSC 2 as an example

It was built with trains...it was never finished because theres no one left..

The smart ones fled to space :)

Edited by Overland

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9 hours ago, Ival70 said:

Hello.  Just happened to stumble upon this.  I made a train once.. (Overland isn't the only one). Also..  @GregroxMun!

I like trains. Especially the Hype ones.

Edited by GregroxMun

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5 hours ago, Overland said:

@The_Rocketeer A double ended train with 2 cabs is realistic and practical for us..but while we see prototypical trains

In the krakens eyes.. It appears rather tasty

KSP has a problem with 2 cabs on a connected vessel..im that if you go on rough terrain..the IVA on one of the cabs detaches ( rear mostly ) and you become seasick.. The walls of immersive gameplay comes crashing down..and your not able to see the ground.... In its place..able to see your train...from.. Your train and generally be not very nice :)

It can be overcome though :) using non docked KAS magnets itll still be a seperate craft and wont tempt the IVA kraken..unfortunately with it any multiple unit operations also disapear as will a fully braked train

The solution is unconventional..but worthy.. In that an external command seat and unlucky kerbal can drive the train from the other end..manuvering enough for a Wye junction..

Yes, I realise that (like reversing with a trailer) any banker loco is a bad idea for a land-train, but I always have the option to disable the drive wheels and just use it for extra EC generation/fuel capacity :) plus it looks cool.

For me I really enjoy getting the look right - diorama-style - with projects like this. Honestly, it's not likely I'll put the time into driving 400+ Kerbs anywhere at 5m/s! But I like seeing what some of these things might look like if the KSC decided to perfect the technology :wink:

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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Tweaking today yielded slightly better results, but I think the wheels bug is biting me. All 6 front wheels spontaneously collapse causing the whole train to concertina. I've cut it down to 4-car set. Still using puller-pusher cars, but splitting the rear loco's drive wheels out among the carriages so there's better power distribution. Results are better - much more responsive, but weight is still a problem. Heavy rear car also tends to roll over when cornering at 10m/s.

 

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