ULA launch and discussion thread

[Racescort666]

Interesting statement from Bruno though: 

“Key determining factors to our selection included price and delivery schedule,” said Bruno. “We look forward to continuing our strong partnership to ensure a successful introduction of Vulcan Centaur.”

The new engine is supposed to be 3D printed so I wonder if that has had a huge cost save? I would imagine there would be some save with less manual fabrication but 3D printing parts that big out of metal still isn’t cheap.

[tater]

At least an US that doesn't depend on BO gives Vulcan a performance difference between BG US.

[MaverickSawyer]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:06 AM, Racescort666 said:

The new engine is supposed to be 3D printed so I wonder if that has had a huge cost save? I would imagine there would be some save with less manual fabrication but 3D printing parts that big out of metal still isn’t cheap.

Given the fact that the RL-10 has long used brazed tube construction for the thrust chamber and early bit of the nozzle, it'll be a HUGE cost savings, if only on manpower costs during assembly. Also, 3D printed parts are apparently able to be made closer to finished dimensions, which cuts down on the machining times and cots.

[tater]

25 minutes ago, MaverickSawyer said:

Given the fact that the RL-10 has long used brazed tube construction for the thrust chamber and early bit of the nozzle, it'll be a HUGE cost savings, if only on manpower costs during assembly. Also, 3D printed parts are apparently able to be made closer to finished dimensions, which cuts down on the machining times and cots.

The big question is what is the cost to ULA. Unless RL-10s are getting literally more than 10X cheaper... well, on a "cost plus" basis I guess it doesn't matter.

[MaverickSawyer]

41 minutes ago, tater said:

The big question is what is the cost to ULA. Unless RL-10s are getting literally more than 10X cheaper... well, on a "cost plus" basis I guess it doesn't matter.

I'm not quite sure how much it costs to actually make an RL-10 as it stands today, but it sure ain't cheap. Brazed-tube construction is extremely finicky, hands-on work. Each tube has to be placed by hand into the fixture for brazing. I can't recall if the tubes are still brazed by hand, or if they're done in a vacuum or hydrogen furnace, though. If it's by hand, that's another extremely labor-intensive process, and a costly one at that. That's not manufacturing... that's art.

 

Make no mistake, the RL-10 is an extremely reliable and efficient engine, especially when paired with Centaur. But it's built using tech that hasn't appreciably changed since the engine was designed nearly half a century ago. This new RL-10C-X design will absolutely catapult the design forwards and give it a much-needed extension on its lifespan.

[Racescort666]

14 hours ago, MaverickSawyer said:

Given the fact that the RL-10 has long used brazed tube construction for the thrust chamber and early bit of the nozzle, it'll be a HUGE cost savings, if only on manpower costs during assembly. Also, 3D printed parts are apparently able to be made closer to finished dimensions, which cuts down on the machining times and cots.

The company I work for has a metal 3D printer and the rule of thumb is that as manufactured surfaces are good enough for things like bolt holes and mounting brackets. Pressed in parts like bushings or spherical joints need machining but it’s easy for them to add machine stock. I don’t really know what they need to do for seals. I suppose it depends on the joint design but you’re absolutely right, way less machine time is required.

The other thing that isn’t immediately obvious is that with one or a team of people building these things by hand, it is very hard to increase production capacity. It takes a long time and is very difficult to get people with that kind of skill level. With a 3D printer, if you want to increase production capacity, you buy more 3D printers. Yeah, it’s expensive but so is training.

[Cunjo Carl]

So what on Earth would you launch with a Vulcan?

The ULA previously posted a handy graphic to show off the Ares V's fairing size relative to a humpback whale, but the Vulcan lets us take it one step further...

    So long, and thanks for all the fish!

[MaverickSawyer]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:47 AM, Racescort666 said:

The company I work for has a metal 3D printer and the rule of thumb is that as manufactured surfaces are good enough for things like bolt holes and mounting brackets. Pressed in parts like bushings or spherical joints need machining but it’s easy for them to add machine stock. I don’t really know what they need to do for seals. I suppose it depends on the joint design but you’re absolutely right, way less machine time is required.

The other thing that isn’t immediately obvious is that with one or a team of people building these things by hand, it is very hard to increase production capacity. It takes a long time and is very difficult to get people with that kind of skill level. With a 3D printer, if you want to increase production capacity, you buy more 3D printers. Yeah, it’s expensive but so is training.

True. I've also had the opportunity to see metal 3D printers at work. It's a several day process, but the end result is something that would have taken weeks, if not months, to manufacture using more "traditional" methods. And sometimes, you can make stuff with 3D printing that's not even possible to manufacture any other way.

[SaturnianBlue]

ULA Chief Scientist of Advanced Programs, Bernard Kutter is at ISDC! I might be able to ask him questions, does anyone have any they might want to ask?

[sevenperforce]

12 hours ago, SaturnianBlue said:

ULA Chief Scientist of Advanced Programs, Bernard Kutter is at ISDC! I might be able to ask him questions, does anyone have any they might want to ask?

Everything about SMART reuse.

Are there any plans to develop autonomous engine landing and reuse? (the little stubby fly-back strap-on liquid boosters)

With the impending retirement of Delta IV and the intended replacement of Atlas V by Vulcan, do they anticipate going to a single-vehicle manifest?

How is ACES coming along? When do they anticipate the first orbital cryogenic propellant transfer tests?

 

[tater]

https://www.airspacemag.com/space/tory-bruno-profile-180968983/

[Canopus]

https://www.docdroid.net/zRCttF4/2-1-transportation-propellant-resources-in-the-cislunar-economy-kutter.pdf

New ULA presentation showing mostly old stuff and the Aft section of an ACES. 

[NSEP]

8 minutes ago, Canopus said:

https://www.docdroid.net/zRCttF4/2-1-transportation-propellant-resources-in-the-cislunar-economy-kutter.pdf

New ULA presentation showing mostly old stuff and the Aft section of an ACES. 

150 kIB

kIB

KILOPOUNDS.

WHAT THE ....

 

[StrandedonEarth]

I don’t think klb is that unusual when referring to thrust. Edit: although I think it’s usually klbf

I find it interesting that they’re positioning it for asteroid mining and indefinite reuse. The more players (ANY players) in that game the better. 

I also liked the plan to use it to move the ISS to a “museum orbit” when decommissioned. Much better than dumping all that valuable on-orbit mass into the ocean. That’s the first I’ve heard of that plan aside from wishful thinking from the space-peanut gallery. Someone is listening! Is Tory Bruno lurking on our forum?

Edited June 22, 2018 by StrandedonEarth

[NSEP]

35 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

I don’t think klb is that unusual when referring to thrust. Edit: although I think it’s usually klbf

They were referring to the mass of the LH2/LO2.

The whole thing is just a mess when it comes to choice of units, the diameter is in meters, yet the fuel mass is in pounds. 

[Racescort666]

5 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Is Tory Bruno lurking on our forum?

He lurks on reddit. There is a chance he comes here but I would be surprised to see him comment.

@NSEP, in school we talked about kips which I assumed was the preferred abbreviation for kilo pounds. Regardless, even as an American engineer, I always give people a hard time for not using metric. Basically the entire auto industry is metric and there’s really no reason to use traditional units.  Everyone in it understands mm and kg so why bother confusing the matter? I’m to the point where I have to convert inches to mm when I’m thinking about hole sizes, clearances, and thickness.

[Xd the great]

13 hours ago, Racescort666 said:

He lurks on reddit. There is a chance he comes here but I would be surprised to see him comment.

@NSEP, in school we talked about kips which I assumed was the preferred abbreviation for kilo pounds. Regardless, even as an American engineer, I always give people a hard time for not using metric. Basically the entire auto industry is metric and there’s really no reason to use traditional units.  Everyone in it understands mm and kg so why bother confusing the matter? I’m to the point where I have to convert inches to mm when I’m thinking about hole sizes, clearances, and thickness.

Plus NASA lost a space prode due to unit conversion.

[NSEP]

Tory is just another KSP player.

 

[mikegarrison]

On 6/22/2018 at 12:05 PM, NSEP said:

The whole thing is just a mess when it comes to choice of units, the diameter is in meters, yet the fuel mass is in pounds. 

That's just the way things work. Airplanes can be designed and built using meters, but fly at altitudes measured in feet and at speeds measured in nautical miles per hour.

I use klb a lot. For example, the MTOW of a 777-300ER is 775 klb.

On 6/22/2018 at 5:13 PM, Racescort666 said:

Basically the entire auto industry is metric and there’s really no reason to use traditional units.

Not that way in aerospace.

[wumpus]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:13 PM, Racescort666 said:

He lurks on reddit. There is a chance he comes here but I would be surprised to see him comment.

@NSEP, in school we talked about kips which I assumed was the preferred abbreviation for kilo pounds. Regardless, even as an American engineer, I always give people a hard time for not using metric. Basically the entire auto industry is metric and there’s really no reason to use traditional units.  Everyone in it understands mm and kg so why bother confusing the matter? I’m to the point where I have to convert inches to mm when I’m thinking about hole sizes, clearances, and thickness.

For some reason mills (milliinches) are still in use.  Scott Manley's brother does thin film work in Scotland and was on one of Scott's old videos talking about thickness in "mills".  I have no idea if that is Scottish for milimeter or he simply had enough American customers that he thought in SAE units.

Circuit boards are often in inches (and footprints listed in mills), which is irritating as in electronics we are mostly blessed with metric only units (Volts, Amps, Watts are all metric.  I am quite thankful I don't have to deal with 12 1/4 Franklins for one Edison or other such silliness).  At least in Altium you have to choose imperial or metric units when starting (which presumably depends on the eventual manufacturing house).  With manufacturing exclusively in China, I expect that PCB design will (if it hasn't already) move exclusively to metric.

[GluttonyReaper]

On 6/29/2018 at 8:16 PM, wumpus said:

I have no idea if that is Scottish for milimeter

Can confirm that in the UK, 'mills' is pretty widely used to mean millimeters, just to make things more confusing

[mikegarrison]

On 5/13/2018 at 3:56 PM, Cunjo Carl said:

So what on Earth would you launch with a Vulcan?

The ULA previously posted a handy graphic to show off the Ares V's fairing size relative to a humpback whale, but the Vulcan lets us take it one step further...

    So long, and thanks for all the fish!

A more relevant Douglas Adams quote:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/198068-another-thing-that-got-forgotten-was-the-fact-that-against

“Another thing that got forgotten was the fact that against all probability a sperm whale had suddenly been called into existence several miles above the surface of an alien planet.

And since this is not a naturally tenable position for a whale, this poor innocent creature had very little time to come to terms with its identity as a whale before it then had to come to terms with not being a whale any more.

This is a complete record of its thoughts from the moment it began its life till the moment it ended it.

Ah … ! What’s happening? it thought.

Er, excuse me, who am I?

Hello?

Why am I here? What’s my purpose in life?

What do I mean by who am I?

Calm down, get a grip now … oh! this is an interesting sensation, what is it? It’s a sort of … yawning, tingling sensation in my … my … well I suppose I’d better start finding names for things if I want to make any headway in what for the sake of what I shall call an argument I shall call the world, so let’s call it my stomach.

Good. Ooooh, it’s getting quite strong. And hey, what’s about this whistling roaring sound going past what I’m suddenly going to call my head? Perhaps I can call that … wind! Is that a good name? It’ll do … perhaps I can find a better name for it later when I’ve found out what it’s for. It must be something very important because there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Hey! What’s this thing? This … let’s call it a tail – yeah, tail. Hey! I can can really thrash it about pretty good can’t I? Wow! Wow! That feels great! Doesn’t seem to achieve very much but I’ll probably find out what it’s for later on. Now – have I built up any coherent picture of things yet?

No.

Never mind, hey, this is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I’m quite dizzy with anticipation …

Or is it the wind?

There really is a lot of that now isn’t it?

And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground!

I wonder if it will be friends with me?

And the rest, after a sudden wet thud, was silence.

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.”

[Racescort666]

On 6/29/2018 at 2:10 PM, mikegarrison said:

Not that way in aerospace.

When I was in aerospace it was a bit of a mixed bag. FLs and kts will probably remain and the same goes for things like stock sizes and legacy products. New design was trending toward metric and even in the auto industry some things maintain their traditions. For example, you can get 3 mm thick steel but 11 gauge is much more common in the US, is much cheaper, and for all intents and purposes, the same. However, design and analysis is almost exclusively done in metric so you end up with a 3.04 mm thick sheet because cost is more important.

[MaverickSawyer]

Aviation is still done using SAE, yes. Aerospace, though, is largely done using metric.

[tater]