I play KSP missions vanilla, "not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

[tntristan12]

It's a misconception that mods make the game easier. Sure, some mods provide players with tools they didn't have before (Engineer Redux, Mechjeb, and KSPX for instance) but they don't change the fact that the player must use trial, error, and good judgement to make a craft that flies well.

Most mods are well written, well balanced additions that contribute to gameplay, and in some cases add to the challenge (FAR, RemoteTech, and Deadly Reentry).

In the end, the most compelling argument I've heard against mods is that they can sometimes be a pain in the butt to keep updated with the stock game, and if you have too many mods installed they may interact with each other in ways the player might find less than satisfactory.

Just my opinion.

[ChrisWill]

I mostly add parts nothing special though stuff like FusTek. As for mods RemoteTech, AssemblyLoader, Kethane, and Mechjeb only really have Mechjeb to get more detailed orbit and ship info. I wanted Ioncross but it destroyed my game I don't think it's update to .21.

[Ralathon]

DeadlyReentry so I can't perform aerocaptures and interplanetary reentry easily.

FAR so I can't lift arbitrarily large payloads using pancake rockets.

Ioncross so my manned missions have a strict time limit.

Remotetech to avoid cheating Ioncross by only using probes.

(In b4 person claiming that the navigation data is for noobs and that everyone should fly to space based on engine sound and stopwatch with their screen off)

[skyace65]

I play without mods. i just don't want to have to deal with keeping them all up to date, plus probably wouldn't be able to help myself when a new patch releases. and right now there is plenty of vanilla game content for me.

[DChurchill]

I use MechJeb and installed a bunch of parts mods, even edited some engines so I had something in-between the Skipper and Mainsail. I did this not because it made things easier, but because I wanted to.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to regex again.

[regex]

(In b4 person claiming that the navigation data is for noobs and that everyone should fly to space based on engine sound and stopwatch with their screen off)

You should have just claimed that yourself.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to regex again.

Love you too, bro.

[justadude]

I play KSP because I like space exploration, not because I think the way I play it could validate me in some way.

Edited August 8, 2013 by justadude

[justadude]

(In b4 person claiming that the navigation data is for noobs and that everyone should fly to space based on engine sound and stopwatch with their screen off)

OMG, is that not how they flew all the Apollo missions?

[littlebattler]

OMG, is that not how they flew all the Apollo missions?

I thought they did it by sticking their thumbs out of the window and trying to guess the wind speed?

[justadude]

I thought they did it by sticking their thumbs out of the window and trying to guess the wind speed?

No, that was Gemini. Monkeys flew Mercury.

[Motokid600]

I NEED mods. When I need to send up a 350 ton payload I NEED mods. Do you have any idea how many stock parts a lifter of that size would take? Easily over 500. PLUS a thousand part payload. So if I can download the American pack and Nova punch I can make an over powered lifter for 1/8th the part count. Building stock lifters for me is not fun. At all. Too many parts. Too much lag. Too much trouble shooting. And on top of that stock lifters are ugly as sin. And don't ever say it takes more skill to handle stock parts. Thats bull and you know it. Mods add features which add to the complexity factor.

[asmi]

Eh, FAR makes getting to orbit simple, you just have to respect its rules. DE isn't exactly deadly either if you do the same.

Vessels that most "stock only" players built are more than likely to fall apart the moment you launch them with FAR as they are completely un-aerodynamic bricks. And while getting small payloads with FAR is easier, it's not so for heavier and bigger payloads. And piloting with FAR is completely different - if one tries to to stock-like 45° "gravity" turn, "he won't go to space today".

As for DR, most of my reentry failures were not due to overheating and burning up, but due to over-G-ing. And again, looking youtube videos of some stock-only players, vast majority of them reenter using very speed trajectories, so they will most certainly over-G.

[Bandock]

I established two different save games in order to play it two different ways, one with stock-only and one with mods-included.

Only exceptions include Kerbal Engineer Redux where I use it for Delta-V information before launch as well as Subassembly Manager for handling subassemblies.

[BubbaWilkins]

Nothing wrong playing stock. But I prefer to build things like this which simply aren't possible stock.

Stock is great for building basic rockets and small aircraft/spaceplanes. But if you want to make serious craft with serious capabilities and still actually be able to play the game, then you will have to mod it up.

[regex]

Vessels that most "stock only" players built are more than likely to fall apart the moment you launch them with FAR as they are completely un-aerodynamic bricks. And while getting small payloads with FAR is easier, it's not so for heavier and bigger payloads. And piloting with FAR is completely different - if one tries to to stock-like 45° "gravity" turn, "he won't go to space today".

vOv Using FAR I found that I could economize my lifters because I needed less fuel. I also try to build "mostly" aerodynamic rockets (I even use nosecones without FAR) that are reasonable, and I build in orbit rather than try to launch 350 ton payloads; 80 tons is about the most I launch at one time. So yeah, FAR just made the game easier for me.

[justadude]

Often the real motivation in posts like these is to validate and stroke ego by defining what constitutes proper play and fun in a single player game. In doing so, the difference between fact and opinion is utterly disregarded. Such argumentation is, simply put, fallacious.

When all is said and done on the Internet, it is the person playing the game who decides what constitutes fun gameplay and the proper challenge, if or when challenge is desired, not some arbitrary statement by someone trying to impose their rules upon you.

KSPs gameplay allows individuals to seek their fun. Be is Stock, mods, flying, planning, simulating, experimenting, running a space program or simply going places and enjoying the view.

How about less of these threads and more "I'm okay, You're okay."

Edit: Took some of the bite out.

Edited August 9, 2013 by justadude

[Specialist290]

(In b4 person claiming that the navigation data is for noobs and that everyone should fly to space based on engine sound and stopwatch with their screen off)

OMG, is that not how they flew all the Apollo missions?

I thought they did it by sticking their thumbs out of the window and trying to guess the wind speed?

No, that was Gemini. Monkeys flew Mercury.

I knew there was a reason I stick around when these discussions come up.

But to stay on-topic: Even though the point's been hashed and rehashed to death, "mods" vs. "non-mods" (and specifically "manual piloting" vs. "MechJeb") really comes down to personal playstyle. I don't use MechJeb because I still enjoy piloting my ships manually, and I try to keep mods at a minimum because I don't like having to manually update them all every time the game updates. However, I don't hold anything against anyone who chooses to use loads of mods and MechJeb, or who chooses not to use mods at all.

EDIT: In short, everything that justadude just said.

[regex]

The OPs (and all others like him) real motivation in posts like these is to validate and stroke their ego by defining what constitutes proper play and fun in a single player game.

Their motivation could just be to troll and have fun.

In fact, I like that explanation better. I think everyone just needs to lighten up on the whole mods vs. stock debate, and take threads like these as opportunities to have fun with the whole idiocy of the thing.

[justadude]

Their motivation could just be to troll and have fun.

Yeah, you're probably right about a portion of the posts.

In the end its the same difference. None. The trolls also seek social validation("Look Ma, I caused a big thread to be made."), only they do not even have a cause to get behind...

but Monkeys did fly Mercury. Sam, Ham and Enos.

Edited August 8, 2013 by justadude

[air805ronin]

For added difficulty I only play KSP nude. Sometimes I install the mod "cat walking on keyboard" to really make it a challenge.

[Tw1]

The OPs (and all others like him) real motivation in posts like these is

What if the OP just wanted to use the JFK quote ?

[Guest]

I use whatever parts I need to assemble the vehicles I want and fly them as I see fit to wherever I want to go. Unless it's that great TARDIS mod, then don't change anything and fly it like I stole it.

[Tiron]

I like how this turned into a thread about how mods can actually make the game HARDER than stock.

If you want to play all stock that's great, but you're missing a world of possibilities, my friend. Also setting yourself up for a lot of tedium.

As for what the OP was TRYING to shoot for, there's this thing called 'Fake Difficulty'. The difference between Fake Difficulty and Real Difficulty is that in the former case, some kind of design problem with the game is what makes it hard. In our case it's mostly things that aren't finished yet.

For example, transferring to another planet without mods. The Game UI at present includes very little to help you determine the right point or direction to burn to get there. It can tell you the 'point of closest approach', by which means you could theoretically brute force it with a ton of excess Delta-V. Trick being while this would be hard, it wouldn't really involve any particular skill. Doing the transfer properly without mods involves either calculating or looking up the appropriate phase angles and then measuring the angles by holding a protractor up to the screen. Technically speaking, there isn't any practical difference between using a physical protractor, and adding the same functionality into the game with a mod. Point is, the tools aren't really there as it is (though I'm sure they will be at some point later in development).

And in my experience, that's the kind of thing most mods seem to do: Add things that aren't implemented in stock yet, or expand upon the things that are incomplete. Some of them make things easier. Some make it harder. Some don't affect the difficulty at all. It's up to each individual person what they want to use or don't want to use. There's no right or wrong answer. I mean, it's a game. The point is for it to be enjoyable for the person playing it. If mods help accomplish that, it's not a bad thing. And if you think it is, well... what concern is it of yours, frankly? Different people enjoy different things. That doesn't make it wrong when someone else has different preferences than you do, that just makes them...different.

[regex]

For added difficulty I only play KSP nude. Sometimes I install the mod "cat walking on keyboard" to really make it a challenge.

Noobs.

The only way to play KSP nude is with the "cat kneading lap" mod installed. Otherwise you're just cheating yourself.

[Cartz]

I NEED mods. When I need to send up a 350 ton payload I NEED mods. Do you have any idea how many stock parts a lifter of that size would take? Easily over 500. PLUS a thousand part payload. So if I can download the American pack and Nova punch I can make an over powered lifter for 1/8th the part count. Building stock lifters for me is not fun. At all. Too many parts. Too much lag. Too much trouble shooting. And on top of that stock lifters are ugly as sin. And don't ever say it takes more skill to handle stock parts. Thats bull and you know it. Mods add features which add to the complexity factor.

This^

In 0.20 I went purist, and I reached the far corners of Kerbol and returned safely to Kerbin. I only used convenience mods: alarm clock and protractor. I did the asparagus Mainsail pancake design to get my interplanetary stages into orbit, I struted the crap out of my large payloads which hung way over the sides of my 2.5m diameter rocket.

In 0.21 I played differently, I replaced my 170 part heavy lifter with a 33 part one using Novapunch's larger diameter tanks and engines. It takes the same amount of payload to orbit, burns a similar amount of fuel and is slightly easier to fly, mostly due to lower lag.

I took my old interplanetary designs, replaced my 5 LV-N cluster with Nova's larger, same ISP and thrust rated 2.5M LVN, and repeated some of my old missions. Nothing felt easier, except my part counts were lower, performance was higher, and my rockets looked like rockets.

Then, I installed FAR and DR, and now some things I'd taken for granted in vanilla provide challenge again, and my rocket designs need to be more 'rockety' than ever to stand a chance at flying. Thankfully I can condense my payloads due to the 'other' DR (or IR, or whatever) allowing me to design an arm that I can then use to unpack and assemble my payloads in orbit, without putting RCS and command chairs on everything. I also wrap everything up in procedural fairings to make it nice and streamlined.

I installed Kethane, not because I need the ability to make fuel to get home, but because I want an overall objective other than straight exploration, which I've done. And the nice part is, even though I'm stowing a kethane rig in my lander now, my part counts are still lower.

I even copied the stock radial parachute file, and editted it to make a new part of my own, the radial drogue chute, because I felt like it was an omission that I could address and to me, the part seems fair.

All in all, I feel that in 0.20 I validated myself, I CAN do everything in the game on stock (I even handled my own time acceleration and phase angles at first) At the end of 0.20 I felt hemmed in by vanilla. Lifting something bigger wasn't a challenge, it was an exercise in tedium as I pancaked my lifter out even further and flew it under time dilation. Getting to far flung locales (Jool) wasn't an issue, it was just a matter of heavy lifting up a few orange tanks with interplanetary stages and docking ports of their own and firing them all off during the same transfer window.

Now I'm having fun doing my own Constellation inspired missions to Duna and eventually Laythe. Some of the stuff I'm doing can't be done in stock for no other reason then the fact that stock doesn't have >2.5M diameter parts.