capi3101

Did a couple of Munar flybys for science. Won't attempt a landing until I unlock fuel ducts. Seriously need to pick up work on the Constellation Challenge again, which means I need to migrate my savegame and rockets from 0.21.

Just now getting up to the point myself where I can recreate my Apocalypse 7 craft - not the first Munar lander I ever designed, but one of the most successful ones I had in the early going with 1.25 m parts. It was originally designed in 0.19 so it's in need of an update at this point, but I bet the same design principles apply. Your design philosophy is essentially the same as that of the Apocalypse - a direct ascent lander that also serves as the transfer stage back to Kerbin, a transfer stage and a booster. Here's how I'd do it: Set your sci stuff with the CM. Put a stack decoupler on the bottom, then add four FL-T200 tanks, one centerline and three outboard. Run fuel lines (if you have them) from the outboard tanks to the center, and slap a single LV-909 engine on the bottom of the center tank. Put six lander legs on the outboard tanks, two on each leg. Struts for stability. If you want to add a reaction wheel or RCS if you have it, go ahead. You also want to add your power generation here. Then the booster is two FL-T800 tanks with an LV-45 in the center and six FL-T800 tanks outboard with LV-T30s (use TT-70 radial decouplers to attach these). Set the engines to fire together and run fuel lines from the bottom of the outboard tanks to the centerline tank. On the bottom of each engine, add a stack decoupler and add an RT-10 SRB; these seven SRBs are what you use at launch. The fuel lines make the difference; the center engine stack should have enough juice to complete the ascent, circularize around Kerbin, transfer to Mun, orbit Mun, and de-orbit the lander. From there it's a matter of watching your fuel when you land. By using small tanks radially, you shorten and widen the lander, which means it will be less prone to tipping over when you get to the Mun's surface.

Yeah, I'll make it explicit in the rules - no damage to the rocket whatsoever. @Johnno: You're right, I did have it as "furthest distance" originally. I changed that when I remembered that "furthest distance" is ridiculously ambiguous; someone could just go up into orbit, circle the planet for a thousand years and come back down, earning a big score in the process. Yes, you can get into orbit with a single stage on Starting Tier parts. But it's tricky, and then there's the matter of landing without damage. That's what happened to me; I had a beautiful flight, but my engines popped off on splashdown. No score. A suborbital flight like Johnnos will do just as well. Speaking of which, Johnno has the first successful entry with a score of 38,374. Will update the leaderboard momentarily.

Bit the bullet and installed 0.22. Made four low tech shots to build up science. Beginning to think I need to take my own advice and send Jeb on a cislunar flight despite only having worked up to the second (third?) tier of technologies so far. Life without batteries sucks. Started a challenge. So far folks have mostly complained about the wording - apparently it's either "Starting Tier" or "Tier 0", not "Tier 1", for the stuff you start career mode with. Had a guy show up with a Duna flight with just those parts; I had to point out the part where it said you couldn't take any damage. Haven't done that bit my own self yet. Back in 0.21, I designed a pressurized rover for the Constellation Program Challenge. Still figuring out I'm going to turn it into a subassembly; building the upper bit was a pain. Not the best rover I've ever designed, but certainly among the most fun - the base bit is a Mk2 Lander Can and I've aimed it so the window part is forward, so you can drive it in IVA. Watching it flip over and explode in one of the early tests from that vantage point was definitely interesting...

Yeah, but can you get it back to Kerbin and land without damaging the craft? Allmhuran's flight, impressive though it is, would be a no score - the SRBs are exploding in the early stages. That's damage. I'll revise the wording so there's no confusion as to which Tier is involved. Also mention no debug menu. My first attempt is a no score; blew the engines on splashdown. Can't seem to change the name of the thread itself...

Alright - now that we're all familiar with the new tech tree, I figure it's time for a simple challenge. Objective: Travel as high up as you can (i.e. highest altitude) with a manned pod, and return to Kerbin's surface without any damage to the rocket whatsoever. No biggie, right? The catch: You may only use Starting Tier parts - that's the Command Pod Mk1, LV-T30 Liquid Fuel Engine, RT-10 Solid Fuel Booster, FL-T200 Fuel Tank, Modular Girder Segment, Communotron 16, and Mk16 Parachute. Any rocket that includes any other part is automatically disqualified. To enter: Submit a screenshot of your design in the VAB; if any non-Starting Tier parts are included, you earn no score (and entries may be disqualified after scoring if it can be shown a non-Tier 1 part was used). Show another screenshot of your flight log after landing, with the maximum height traveled displayed. If any damage to the rocket is indicated in the flight log, you earn no score (this includes damaged parts, structural linkage failures and explosions due to overheating). An extra 100 m of distance may be earned per point of Science collected during the flight. No autopilots, hyper-editing or any use of the debug menu is allowed. My entry as soon as I get done installing 0.22. Leaders: 1. tavert -- 29,321,765,397 2. Johnno -- 38,734 3.

OP, I misread your post that indicated your current tech level - sorry about that. There's one more option: try to get your payload up in one go, without staging. This is a kind of booster I specialize in for light payloads like what you have here. Okay, so two goo containers, a science junior and a Command Pod for a munar flyby. 4550 to orbit and 860 for an intercept with a free return. I'll give a little extra in case you need to maneuver - say another 25%, so 1075. 5,625 m/s of delta-V is all you need. 1.15 tonnes just for the stuff you want to bring. Let's then go with twelve batteries (.06) and two radial chutes (.3). So that's 1.51 tonnes of payload. First, the transfer stage - you're light enough that a 909 will do the trick easy (.5), and you need a stack decoupler of course (.05). 2.06 tonnes deadweight, and a 909 has an Isp of 390 in space, so all you need is an FL-T200; that will give you 1,441 m/s of delta-V, more than what you need to get to the Mun and back. Hell...that 1075 figure already included a buffer; this gives you almost twice what you need. So consider trying it with an FL-T100 if you think you can get away with it; you'll save some weight. Actually, scratch that - half a tonne isn't that big of a deal with such a small rocket. That leaves the booster, which is doable with the parts you have available. Your payload and transfer stages are 3.185 tonnes combined - so you'll want a centerstack with four outboard stacks; LV-T30s outboard and an LV-T45 in the center (the -45 gives you steering authority). That's 1060 kN of thrust total, sufficient for your needs. 6.5 tonnes of engines plus another stack decoupler (.05) and your deadweight is up to 9.735 tonnes. Ground Isp of your engines is 320. So you need a little over twelve tonnes of fuel in each stack. Two FL-T800s, one FL-T400 and one FL-T200 in each stack should do the trick. Your total mass is 71.61 tonnes; launch TWR is 1.51. (I'm glossing over all the math here; I apologize and can elaborate more on the process if anyone is curious). You've got struts, so use them. String the centerpoints of each of the outboard fuel tanks to the next adjacent stack, and then add one going to the center stack. Attach an additional strut from the top of the outboard stacks to the FL-T200 in the transfer stage. That should be all the strutting you need. This is an SSTO booster, so you have to follow some guidelines for the flight - first, you start at full throttle but you cannot leave it there; watch the gee meter as you go and throttle back a little if you climb out of the green zone; towards the end of the ascent, you may only be burning at 1/3 throttle or so, which is totally normal. Straight up to 10,000 m, 090 at 45 degrees to about 25,000, then follow the navball. Burn along the horizon after 50,000 until you've got your apoapsis where you want it (usually at 100,000 m). Stop burning, plan an orbital insertion burn once your ship's altitude is over 70,000, and burn at about 1/3 thrust (it'll take three times as long to complete as the node will indicate). Once your periapsis is over 70,000, you're in orbit. After you've circularized, cut loose the booster and activate the transfer stage engine. Burn for the Mun when ready. Hopefully I've given you enough juice to make it there and back without problems; follow the type of flight path that SRV Ron was kind enough to provide a screenshot for earlier in this thread - in particular you want to watch the altitude of your Kerbin periapsis on the return - you want that to be 30,000 or so. Make the burn and shut off your reaction wheels in the pod, no SAS either. You should have enough juice then to make the flight. Do your science in Mun's SOI, drop the transfer stage before opening the chutes when you get back, and you should be golden. I've designed this with more delta-V than it needs, so if it turns out there isn't enough electrical power, add another quad of batteries. The extra mass won't shave that much off your stage delta-Vs, and 1600 should be more than enough for just a Munar flyby. When you get OX-STATs, ditch all but four of the batteries and add four OX-STAT panels; this design will still work and you could even consider sticking around in orbit for a while.

Use your keypad - it's ALT-129. So you can spell Mün.

Did my first test runs of my Munar/Dunar lander design for the Constellation Program Challenge. Getting the rovers attached was surprisingly easy for once. Jeb couldn't negotiate the ladder system; I'm hoping he'll have more luck when he gets to the Mun. Didn't accomplish any mission points for the challenge, but I was happy just to get all the kinks worked out with the booster. I sure have come a long way since the Flying Dutchman 7, my first Munar rescue rocket - that one was twenty tonnes, this one is 65.

Batts come in at Tier 4 (with Science Tech). SRV Ron's designs will work for a Munar flyby, though the name of the game is going to be power conservation. No SAS and disabled reaction wheels when the engines are off or you won't have enough juice to fire the chutes at the end of the trip. Do your science while you're in the Mun's SOI and don't circularize; just take the free-return home. Next one after Sci-Tech you want is Flight Control, and then Electrics on Tier 5; at that point, you finally have access to OX-STAT solar panels.

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Tech_tree

First, listen to the Hitchhiker's Guide: don't panic. Second, how far along the tech tree are you? Third, what would you like to take with you to the Mun and back?

1. How far up on the tech tree are you? I wouldn't attempt a rescue until you've unlocked RCS at Tier 5 (RCS is helpful for close-in maneuvers after a rendezvous, whether you can dock or not). 2. The Stayputnik is available at Tier 4. Of course, the only power supply you have at that level is the Z-100, but you can paste a hell of a lot of Z-100s on a Stayputnik; its big advantage is large surface area. Put it on a sub-orbital trajectory with the apoapsis over 100k (i.e. don't circularize), attach batt after batt to the booster, add an attenna, and run your experiments while the craft is still in flight. Transmit as you go. Better still, add a chute and you might be able to recover the craft on landing - it's light, a small chute can handle it.

Ain't really much of a point in converting a Sandbox save to a Career save for now - right now the point of Career appears to be unlocking the tech tree so you can get all the parts. Converting the Sandbox defeats that purpose (let's face it: we've all become attached to our Mainsails). Now, this might be useful in the future (when money comes into play). I can also see someone who's already unlocked the entire tech tree wanting to convert it over (that way they get in all their expensive missions now, before money counts for something).

Looking at what some folks are reporting for science on missions to Duna, I think my initial 20-point suggestion is going to be a touch low given how the rest of the challenge is scored. Like by an order of magnitude. Possibly two. New suggestion: +1 challenge point per 500 science points collected. More accomplishments today: 12 spacewalks in one night...and I proved the Thanatos could launch a Block I Scorpio without using EDS fuel. PREVIOUS SCORES: Design 33, Mission 7 NEW POINTS CLAIMED: Design +1 (34), Mission +3 (10) Crew Launch Vehicle (Thanatos 7): +0 pts Can carry Orion Block 2 to low orbit without using any fuel from the Orion service module (+2) Heavy Cargo Lift Vehicle (Thanatos Heavy 7): +1 pts. Can carry the Earth Departure Stage (EDS) and Orion BLock 1 to low orbit without using any fuel from the EDS (+1) Munar/Dunar Lander (Katapugon 7 Series): +0 pts Hardware designed, building pending, no accomplishments achieved to date. Crew Vehicle (Scorpio 7) +0 pts All accomplishments achieved. R&D: +5 pts Perform a LKO test of an Altair Munar lander. With at least one Kerbal on board, fly an Altair Munar lander at least 100km away from the Orion spacecraft. Dispose of the descent stage, then fly the ascent stage back to the Orion. Transfer the crew to the Orion then robotically control the ascent stage into a re-entry orbit (+3) Perform the above Altair test in Munar orbit using EOR mission (+1) Using an un-Kerballed Duna lander and an EDS on Ares V, perform a high-speed re-entry from at least 15,000km Ap. (+2) Launch an un-Kerballed Duna lander on Ares V into low orbit. Perform an orbital test and descent of the lander (crewed or uncrewed) (+3) Use an Ares I in at least one Munar mission (flyby, orbital or landing) (+1) Use an Ares I in at least one Duna mission (flyby or landing) (+1) Use an Ares V in at least one Munar mission (orbital or landing) (+2) Use an Ares V in at least one Duna mission (flyby or landing) (+2) Space Station - Scorpio/Thanatos: +3 pts Launch an Orion to the orbiting space station with at least 4 crew. Perform a crew exchange and return four Kerbals from the space station to Kerbin using the Orion. (+2) Return at least one Kerbal from the space station to Kerbin in an Orion which was docked robotically. This is a "liferaft" scenario intended to use the Orion left at the space station in "Research and Development" above. (+1) Mun - Scorpio/Thantatos/Thantatos Heavy/Katapugon: +0 pts Land an un-Kerballed Altair on the Mun without the use of an Orion spacecraft (EDS and Altair only launched from Ares V) (+2) Demonstrate that your Altair can, on its own, brake the Orion and Altair into Mun orbit and perform a polar landing (+2) Land at least 4 Kerbals in an Altair on the Mun within 1km of either above Altair (+3) Return four Kerbals from a Munar landing to Kerbin (+2) Munar Outpost: Using at least one crewed Altair lander, an Outpost Variant and a pressurized rover set up a Munar Outpost. The Outpost Variant can join a crewed Altair already on the Mun or can be part of a separate Altair/Outpost Variant mission to another location. The Altair and Outpost Variant need to be within 100m of each other. (+5) No other mission objectives completed to date.

I'm up for leaving the Zenith series alone, personally. Perhaps what's needed is a series of boosters based on the same set of principles upon which the Zenith is based, just with parts from lower areas of the tech tree. The FTX-2 Fuel Ducts become available with Tier 5; proper asparagus staging isn't even possible before then.

Two more missions down for the Constellation Program Challenge - pretty sure I screwed both of them up if you want to get technical about it. Helped some folks get into orbit who hadn't progressed very far on the tech tree. Still haven't upgraded to 0.22 yet; probably will wait one more day before taking the plunge.

A friend of mine took great delight in building craft that contained multiple TARDIS command pods...then pummelling them with Whack-a-Kerbal objects until they 'sploded. You guessed it: his name is "The Master". Actually, I've always suspected he was part Dalek...

55.3 tonnes....yeah, going by Temstar's asparagus design principles you had too much thrust and not enough fuel (rather, not enough fuel for the amount of thrust you were using). As long as it got into orbit, though, that doesn't really matter much.

@Kerbart: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Tech_tree OP, how much of the tech tree have you unlocked so far?

Ah - sorry. "Apollo-style", I understand. Yeah, can't help you. I'll hush now.

Quoth the wiki: "Surface samples can be taken by kerbonauts when performing an EVA on the ground (or in the oceans) of a celestial bodies. The results vary by biome." Translation - if your landers are manned, you should be golden. Only help I can offer. Sorry.

Toomuchbrew's given you some good advice there. What exactly is the mass of your payload? Another thing you might want to do is watch your gee meter as you go up. If it goes out of the green, throttle back.

1.2 tonnes...okay, try this: 1 x TR-18A Stack Decoupler 6 x FL-T800 (2 centerline, four outboard) 3 x FL-T200 (1 below each of the bottom-most FL-T800s) 3 x FL-T100 (1 below each of the FL-T200s) 1 x LV-T45 (centerline engine) 2 x LV-T30 (outboard engines) You'll want at least two struts on outboard tank connecting to the central stack, one on each side, about midway up the tank. You'll probably also want a strut from the outboard stacks to the sides of the Command Pod. Nose cones if you wish; they shouldn't take too big of a chunk out of your delta-V. The LV-T45 should give you sufficient steering authority on the way up, so you shouldn't need aerodynamic surfaces (not that you have that many). Note that this will get you up there. You'll still need to get back down again. I think there's enough juice for that with this design (just leave the booster attached, swing around and burn a little bit to deorbit); going to depend on how well you fly it. So that: this is an SSTO rocket design, so watch your gee meter as you go up - throttle back when you get out of the green zone. Straight up to 10k, 090 at 45 degrees to 25k, then follow the navball. Go horizontal at 50k. Ordinarily for something this small I'd say "pack RCS" to deorbit, but you don't have that yet. If you decide to add an FL-T100 and an LV-909 for deorbiting (and a stack decoupler to ditch that for landing), make your fuel stacks three FL-T800s each (nine total) instead of what I said above. That should get you started - lemme know how it turns out. EDIT2: Almost forgot. Now that you have them, add a pair of Z-100 Battery Packs to the sides of the Command Pod. You should last long enough to conduct your experiments, deorbit and open your chute that way. Might even be able to perform a spacewalk or two. Their mass is low enough that you're only talking about a ten m/s hit to your delta-V, tops.

kenbob - I haven't switched to 0.22 yet but I can try to help you build a simple booster design. I need to know what parts you have available from Tiers 1-3, how heavy of a payload you're trying to launch, and what your payload does. EDIT: Never mind, they've got the tech tree up on the wiki now. So now I just need to know your payload's mass. Doesn't look like it could be much more than the Mk1 Command Pod and a chute, but I'll ask anyways.