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While we talk about funny planet names we should just say it in generic Slavianic style - "Uran" spelled "ãрðý", it eliminates the trouble of Ur-anus and the weird Urin-us (witch sounds like urine to me ). Im sure CGP grey has a video about the unfortunate planet.after all that is where i borrowed the Slavianic naming.

There is a lot of information buried in this forum and in the Tutorials subforum. Unfortunately it isn't really organized in any way so it takes a while to wade through. I would also say when you post in this forum, it's pretty hard to get a straight forward answer unless you have a straight forward question. General questions such as "I need help" will get a variety (or lack) of response. For example, since you mentioned reaction wheels, I can point you to this thread. If you read it (most of anyway, especially starting page 2), it will explain why placement of reaction wheels doesn't matter for maneuverability. It does, however, matter for structural integrity. If you have questions about particular mods (such as interstellar or things like FAR and deadly reentry), your best bet is usually to go to those specific mod threads. You'll get a faster and more consistent response. If you're confused about the usefulness of the stock parts, sometimes running a career game can help. It forces you through the parts slowly so you can play with them and test them out. Here is a good example of a probe only career that you can follow through. It helps you to get familiar with the science and probe parts while skipping over some of the complexities/concerns of manned operations. Science collection is way faster with kerbals, but doing probe only will force you to learn a particular branch of the science tree. There's lots of ways to get familiar with the game. Everyone likes to play the game in different ways, so the probe only science path may be completely uninteresting to you. If you want to do interstellar ships, that's cool. But there's so much to talk about in this game and your question is general enough that we're not sure where to help you get started.

Look at all the possible risks: 1) They could bring viruses we haven't evolved to survive to. 2) They could be a race that reproduces extremely quickly and overpopulate the Earth or simply become more numerous than us in just a few hundred years. 3) They could be trying to get us off our guard to invade us with less resistance. 4) They could require more resources than we are willing to provide to them. 5) They could be reluctant to some of our ways/rules/cultural traits/behaviours 6) They could potentially become their own country, with a much more advanced technologies than us and just wipe us off the Earth as soon as they get tired of us. 7) They could be friendly only because they're in need for help and as soon as they get back on their feet, considering the scientific knowledge they have, they would just destroy us and take the Earth for themselves. Assuming that evolution and natural selection worked the same way on their planet, if they are at the top of their food chain, they necessarily are dangerous predators. They are likely to not be that friendly. Seriously if this ever happens what we should (and I hope that we would too) do is just nuke the hell of of them as soon as we see them. No questions, no conversation, no contact what so ever. We don't even give them a warning. We shoot, we kill them and we never talk about it ever again.

So how about the density of particles at that altitude? From the charts in the book Venus Revealed the clouds end at 48 km (replaced by “thin haze†or “Virgaâ€Â) so your cloud city is literally but inside clouds of sulfuric acid. What the point was is that the idea of going outside on Venus at that altitude with open skin is a bad idea, I think you agreed already. This is all counter to the idea of going outside in a vacuum, what I was getting at is: why do either? We can have machines working in either environment, and vacuum is more preferable to machines then working on the surface of Venus. Its a matter of logic, the C-type asteroids are the primordial material all the planets were made off, they have ALL the elements. And the methods I describe could theoretically separate any element for any other element within the energy usage limits I provided. http://www.philipmetzger.com/blog/type-of-asteroid-to-mine-part-3/ " C Type accounts for about 75% of all asteroids. They formed in the outer portions of the asteroid belt closer to the frost line where it was cooler so carbon compounds could condense. They also contain hydrated minerals so we can get lots of water out of them. Some estimates are that we can get over 20% of the mass of the asteroid out in the form of water. Since chondrites are undifferentiated they also contain primitive metals, sometimes as much as 40% by mass. These would be extremely good asteroids to mine, having water, metals, and carbon compounds, all three in one. Because they are dark, they are rather hard to find." http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/onlinebks/ResourcesNearEarthSpace/resources21.pdf No, machines are going to have problems with that, they are going to be very heavy machines, needing pressure chambers and heat pumps capable of maintaining nearly 500 K temperature differentials! There are extensive engineering challenges in making components capable of operating mechanically under those conditions. In Near Earth Space the engineering requirements are going to be significantly less. Yeah and zeppelin travel was eventually found to be uneconomical, same will be for making a floating city on Venus when other options are cheaper and more economical like asteroid colonies. Hey and we should have atomic vacuum cleaners and flying cars by now to... see there is a difference from what is practical and viable from what is just daydreams: asteroid colonies are more practical and more likely then a Venus cloud colony. Although frankly both may end up at just dreams. If we are going to limit this discussion to being practical enough to not terraform Venus and live in its clouds instead, we might as well ask why not be even more practical and not even live on Venus at all? Yes "mine" I guess we could call it "extract", We would need to suck in cloud particles, condense them, purify the sulfuric acid, undergo electrolysis, it would be rather energy intensive, at least more so then taking chunks of chrondrite asteroid, heating them in a solar ovens to 400 C and boiling out all the water at up to 20% per kg of raw material. No it is much higher, just to get out of Venus is going to take 10.3 km/s, you can get to some asteroids and back in less than that! Appeal to authority fallacy. One does not need to be a nuclear engineer to see the problems in a Nuclear Salt Water Rocket: first off the amounts of Plutonium, U235 or U233 it requires is prodigious, the nuclear salt water needs to be stored in geometry regulated, boron or neutron absorbing fuel tanks to prevent accidental criticality, hence 'unstable', and it will shoot out a beam of radioactive waste when operating. The practical, economical, political difficulties all of that entails means it not likely to happen. One does not need to be a nuclear scientist to point that out, just as one does not need to be a mathematician to do basic mathematics. I was suggesting bringing an asteroid to earth orbit in counter to your claims of bring them on to Venus (why Venus, why not earth?) Ideally we go out to one in near earth space and only hull back refined material. My point is not simply in getting there, it is also is getting back, getting back from Venus alone is more delta-v then getting to and from most asteroids, and that not include cutting through venus's atmosphere. Time is not simply money, fuel is too. And if your gong to talk about things like solar sails than your being contradictory counting the cost of time when many other forms of propulsion can get the job done much faster than solar sails. Also solar sails can't get one off venus, but they could easily be used around an asteroid. This thread is talking about things like terraforming planets, a task that would take tens of thousands of years for Venus, might as well talk about solar system engineering to add billions of years of habitability to a system. Oh so you do have a practicality limit. Well sure a Jupiter colony would not be for the faint of heart, but anything is possible. Well you fail to disprove my points or even acknowledge them. For example you devise complex schemes to extract energy when my solution is simply to have solar panels face the sun, no need to energy storage or multiple energy sources. No need to worry about much in the way of structure in building solar arrays kilometers wide in zero-gravity. The oort cloud is estimated to weigh in at 1.9 earth masses the amount of delta-v required to get out there would be less then the solar escape velocity from earth (42.1 km/s) of which much of that can be provided by a gravity assisted from Jupiter. Once out at an oort cloud comet, with only a few hundred meters per second of delta-v we could have it hurdling into the inner solar system. Sure all of this would take a few hundred years, but consider the time span for terraforming Venus would be in the tens of thousands of years it would be a viable option. Heck we could probably grab just one plutoid like Eris or pluto its self, weighing less than Europa and having a higher percentage of water per ton, and send it flying into the inner solar system. Don't ask me how we move it, but technically it would be easier than Europa. Anyways we would have it smack Venus. The impact alone would likely knock off much of venus's present atmosphere. Eris for example weighs in at 12.5 times as much as all the water on earth, assuming just 10% of water which is probably an under estimate it would still weigh more then all the water on earth. Of course you would not want to be on or anywhere near Venus during such a collision of worlds, any cloud cities would need to be abondoned or suffer a trully epic death. but the new world produced afterwards would have a lot of water (all of a sudden), now in just one (or a handful of truly GRAND impacts) all the materials are present for terrafroming. The surface though would have become completely molten but its not like Venus has not done that before and probably recently in geological history (last few hundred million years), going back to its present crust thickness of just a few hundred meters would probably take only a few thousand years. A combination of solarshade and bio-chemical engineering as previously describe could probably bring Venus up to habitable in a few thousands years. Highlighted because it is very relevent to the thread, for the people that think they can defeat rule 25 of the internet. Wormholes... and maybe wizards. Both the continent and the moon were named after one of Zeus's aaah “Ladiesâ€Â. See with google you can learn something new everyday. yeah I'm pretty sure climatology does not work like that! First of all the reason winds are slow on the surface has little to do with pressure, and everything to do with friction with the planet its self, its call Laminar flow. Honestly its anyones (other then a group of climatologist with a supercompueter) guess what kind of weather venus would have at 3 atmospheres of mostly nitrogen on a planet with a solar day of 4 months. I would hope it still super-rotates and I would put a good bet due to frictions with mountains and hills surface winds would be low, but that as far as I'm guessing.

Can't wait. I was putting off playing RSS because of this. You should probably talk to Nazari about making fuel-specific effects. Turns out that if the configs work like they always did for ModuleEnginesFX, then making effects change with fuel type should be trivial.

Long-term Laythe - Part 27 Tugs First, some housekeeping. Several nuclear Tugs have been piling up around Laythe, what with delivering all those payloads, so it was time to prepare for sending some back to Kerbin. Nuclear engines don't grow on trees, you know. The Double-Tug that was attached to the bottom of Laythe Space Station was separated (leaving a tank behind to increase the fuel capacity of the station) and I planned to boost it out to an orbit beyond Tylo to await the next Jool-to-Kerbin transfer window. (For earlier Tug returns, I'd boosted them out into orbits between Laythe and Vall, but this was trickier to get right because Laythe's sphere of influence would tend to swallow the Tug back up as it was leaving, despite what the projected orbit said at first, requiring some evasive maneuvers. Kicking out further to beyond Tylo avoided this problem.) But when I plotted the trajectory for the outgoing Double-Tug, it ran into a Tylo encounter that would whip the Tugs out of the Joolian system into Kerbol orbit. Well, that was nice...so I took the shot and sent it on its way. Next, the double-Tugs from Laythe Train #2 (which had recently delivered the RASSTO SSTO) was rendezvoused with the station and offloaded all of its excess propellant. To return to Kerbin, the Tugs would only need the fuel in their side-tanks...plus a little extra in the main tank just in case. Because of the recent spate of SSTO test flights, there was room in the station's tanks to hold the propellants. The Tugs also left behind another tank to increase the station's capacity). Then the Train #2 Tugs were separated and sent off to beyond Tylo, which took about 582 m/s of delta-V. I did not bother to wait for the perfect time to get another Tylo encounter (because I have better things to do with my time), but I suppose Thompbles would take the time to do it. Anyway...so the Tugs will need to use another 470 m/s of delta-V to circularize their orbit out beyond Vall (which the previous Double-Tug will not have to do). All of this delta-V goes to getting the Tugs out of Jool's gravity well, of course. But wait, there's more! The Tugs from Laythe Train #1 (which recently brought the Raptor spaceplane to Laythe, and which still had the NAMOR-21 attached) was rendezvoused with the Space Station to offload its excess fuel (and add yet another tank, which nicely balanced out the bottom end of the station). After transferring fuel and disconnecting the rear tank, the Train #1 Tugs undocked and moved up the side of the station to dock the NAMOR-21 Marine Rescue ship to one of the side docking ports. The NAMOR-21 will be stored there until it is needed (if ever). The Tugs then undocked and backed away. Below you can see the elliptical orbits of the first two outgoing sets of Tugs, plus the plotted trajectory for the Train #1 Tugs. Again, I did not wait for a Tylo encounter, and just kicked the Tugs out to cavort beyond Tylo with their fellow Tugs. Note that Kerbal Alarm Clock is very handy when doing this kind of thing (I have reminders set for when various sets of Tugs will need apoapsis burns or have Tylo encounters, and for when the Jool-to-Kerbin transfer window will arrive. I did a small maneuver as the first pair of Tugs passed Tylo to give them a little extra speed so that the Tugs would make it outside Jool's sphere of influence just before the Jool-to-Kerbin transfer time comes. It was nice to see Tylo close up again. The apoapsis kicks for the other Tugs went off on schedule, and they are now happily waiting for their orders to boost home to Kerbin in about 64 days. Thompbles's Travels Everybody agreed that Thompbles should get out more, so he assigned himself the job of piloting the Airedale plane/rover, which is basically a BirdDog modified to carry scientist passengers and their lab equipment on expeditions to points of interest on Laythe. Below, Thompbles climbs up to the Airedale's cockpit. Thompbles: "Airedale to Laythe Base. Radio check." Kurt: "I read you load and clear." Aldner: "Hey, Captain Flyboy! You remember how to do this sort of thing?" Thompbles: "Pointy-end forward? I think I recall. But hang on the line in case I have questions." Aldner: "Will do, Cappy." Thompbles: "I'm lined up. Nose gear is down. Forward tank fuel flow inhibited. Stability system on. Brakes off. Engine activated. Let's see what happens when I push this lever forward." Kurt: "Nice takeoff." Thompbles: "Gear up. Throttle one-third. Man, it has been too damn long. This is great. I'm passing the Base 1 area... We sure do have a nice spread of hardware. Take good care of the store while I'm away, Kurt." Kurt: "Roger, will do. Have fun." Thompbles climbed to over 12,000 meters for cruising northwest toward Jenlan Island. Nelemy had landed near the upper end of Jenlan, but most of that very large island is unexplored. There were a couple small islands beyond Jenlan that had not been visited yet, so Thompbles planned to start with them and then pick out a couple spots on Jenlan to stop at on the way back. You can see in the picture below that the Airedale needs to maintain a high angle of attack when flying in the thin air at 12 kilometers altitude, but it makes good speed there. Because of its greater weight and drag, the Airdale is less fuel efficient than the BirdDogs, but not too bad. The LiquidFuel indicator in the lower left is only showing the fuel remaining in the rear tank (the forward tank has its fuel flow turned off to keep the CG of the plane further forward). Jenlan is a rather rugged island, but Thompbles spots some seaside real estate that he might investigate on the way back. But he thinks the valley high in the mountains looks very interesting (from what he's seen of it on maps). The boys have yet to discover a monolith or other anomaly on Laythe, and Thompbles thinks that valley is the kind of place he'd put one if he were in charge on anomalies. Once he passes Jenlan, he spots the first of the two small islands he'll visit. Once Thompbles passes Jenlan, he spots the first of the two small islands he'll visit. Thompbles: "Airedale to Base. Target one acquired. I'm making my run." Kurt: "Um, OK, Thompbles. But we just want it explored, not bombed." Thompbles: "Roger. My ordnance racks appear to be empty anyway. I'll have to talk to the ground crew about that." Kurt: "Let us know when you've landed." Thompbles came in just over the little berm by the shore and landed the Airedale just fine. He raised the nose gear to drop the rover wheels to the ground, and drove inland a little. Thompbles: "Thompbles to Base. I'm going out to take some surface samples. I'd like to name this island Bob Island after Bob Kerman. I know that Aldner already named a bay after him, but I think such a pioneering astronaut deserves an island, even if it's a small one." Kurt: "Roger. Did you remember to set the brake?" Thompbles: "Yes I did, thank you. Did you remember that geographical names need to be submitted on form 34G in the database?" Kurt: "Yes I did, thank you." Thompbles drove the rover/plane northwest. It wasn't too long before he managed to blow a tire at 20 meters per second on some only slightly bumpy terrain. Thompbles: "Airdale to Base. Is Aldner there?" Aldner: "I'm here, O Brave Explorer. How can I help?" Thompbles: "Have you been watching the data feed from my IMU? I managed to blow a tire on what seemed like fairly small bumps." Aldner: "Looking at it now. Hmm. Your ride looks pretty smooth. I wouldn't have expected a tire to blow in those conditions. But you do have an extra 1.2 tons of passenger cabins on your bird... so maybe you'll just need to keep things slower." Thompbles: "Roger. Well, we knew this was going to be more of an airliner than an exploration rover." Aldner: "Roger. Now get out an get your hands dirty fixing that flat. All part of the job of Intrepid Space Explorer!" Thompbles reached the northwest tip of Bob Island and decided to do a standard float test to see what level he'd float at in the sea here. Another soil and water sample went into the plane. Thompbles: "I'm going to hop to the next island now. Lined up. Nose gear down. Brakes off..... Full throttle. I'm off!" Kurt: "Let us know..." Thompbles: "Alarm." Kurt: "Problem?" Thompbles: "Flying fine. Warning light on the left rover wheel." Aldner: "Did you have the nose gear down?" Thompbles: "Yes. Shows down and locked." Below, the takeoff on the left, and the landing on the right (with blown tire visible). Apparently the plane had hit a bump hard enough to allow the rover wheel to contact the ground (at over 60 m/s) and blow. I don't recall that the ground was that bumpy, really, and this sort of thing does not happen with the BirdDogs. Hmmm. Thompbles fixed the tire and proceded to rove north-northeast along the island, which he named Bill Island, at a moderate pace because it had rougher terrain than Bob Island. The Airedale made it safely to the north point of Bill Island. Thompbles carefully lined up along a smooth patch of land and took off to the east. There were no blown tires. The map below shows Thompbles's route along Bob and Bill Islands. The view is looking toward the southeast. Thompbles flew back over to Jenlan Island and looked over the terrain. He decided to try landing in the high valley and lined up and swooped down into the westernmost end. As he was coming in to land, the surface began to rise rapidly in front of him, and he had to pull up hard. He dropped in pretty hard, but the plane survived OK...without even a blown tire. The valley is apparently made out of connected caldera, and he had not touched down before coming up on the ridge separating one lowspot from the next one. The map view of Jenlan below showis the location of the high valley. Kurt: "How's it going, Thompbles?" Thompbles: "Just fine. I'm driving around looking for the lowest spot in this caldera. I think 1757 meters is the minimum. I'll get some samples, and then I'm going to set up camp for the night." Kurt: "Well, sleep tight. Which is about all you CAN do in those cockpits." Thompbles: "You forget...one of the rear cabins on this bird is set up as a comfy habitat. I might just sleep in late and spend some time reading tomorrow." Kurt: "In that case, enjoy your vacation." Thompbles: "Everything going fine there?" Kurt: "Yep. Hellou says she's just about done with her analysis of all our previous samples, and she's keen for you to bring her more. Nelemy is designing a second shed to be made from the heat shield debris from the SCIENCE lab." Thompbles: "Just make sure they don't set it up right in front of my window." The next day, Thompbles drove the Airedale up and down the rolling ridges separating the parts of the valley. He didn't find any lower point, but he did take plenty of samples. The final bowl of the valley had a bottom elevation of under 1880 meters. From the bottom of the bowl, Thompbles lined up toward the southeast, then fired up the jet engine and took off. Alas...they had still found no monuments or other anomalies on Laythe. Thompbles landed the Airedale by a small lake near the southeast shore of Jenlan Island. The area wasn't too bad (and it's the most accessible part of the large island, being about as far south as it goes), but not a great site. He collected samples and then took off again, this time headed back to Laythe Base. After leaving Jenlan, the fuel in the rear tank was running out, so Thompbles switched on the fuel flow from the forward tank. He landed back at Fido Bay with 107 units of fuel left (out of his initial 300), and docked with GasStation 2 to refuel. After that, GasStation 2 had less than one full plane-load of fuel left in it. But not to worry...they still have the DoubleGasStation at the main base area, and two regular GasStations waiting in orbit to be dropped in where needed. The map below shows the route of Thompbles's training trip. The Airedale checked out fine, but as expected it is not as good a rover as the BirdDogs. It certainly can't be driven as fast as a BirdDog (not safely, anyway), and time warps over 2x should be avoided. This confirms the earlier testing on Kerbin (and it's important to heed this, because if the rover DOES fail, the passenger cabins are NOT very impact resistant). Kethane, Kethane, Kethane! No, I'm not going to install the Kethane Mod... But I am going to let my Laythe kerbals hunt for kethane. [As to why I choose not to use the Kethane Mod, there are a couple reasons. First, I generally avoid lots of mods because they make upgrading my save-game file more difficult (although I love certain user interface enhancement mods). Also, when I look at things that people have done with the stock game, I am familiar with the parts, so I can easily tell what they did. If there are mod parts I'm not familiar with, I never know what I'm looking at. I prefer it if people can more easily understand the capabilities of my ships and what I'm doing.] [Also, some mods just strike me as odd in concept, and Kethane is one of those. What is this kethane stuff, and why do we find it on all kinds of planets and moons? And you can apparently convert it into liquid fuel, oxidizer, monopropellant...and even Xenon. What alchemy is this? I love the idea of exploiting indigenous resources to make propellant and whatnot...but I'll leave the Kethane Mode to others.] So, anyway... I wanted to have some kethane deposits that my kerbals could find. But how much kethane should there be? And how should it be distributed? What I decided to do was take a "typical" kethane distribution and use it as a basis for my kethane map. Geschosskopf (he of the wonderful Kethane Flying Circus missions) had a kethane map posted for Laythe in one of his threads... so I took that image, copied the region markers, resized it to fit my Laythe map, and then generated ramdom numbers to decide how to flip it vertically, horizontally, and shift it in longitude. And I got the map shown below: I noticed later that I had made a mistake in my process... Geschosskopf's map had a gap in longitude with no kethane deposits, but when I resized the marker overlay to fit my map, that gap got lost... So I have more kethane than I should, I suppose, but I'll live with that. I'm not actually going to exploit the kethane (since the engineers in Division 19 never came through with the anticipated resource extraction equipment)... I just using it for roleplaying my missions. As expected, most of the kethane deposits are underwater (easy to happen on Laythe). And whereas Geschosskopf had kethane all over what I call Dansen Island, my home base, my Dansen Island has none. But what my kerbals do have are lots of samples picked up on BirdDog missions, bagged and sealed and labeled. And they have Hellou, with equipment delivered in the shiny new SCIENCE Lab, including, I contend, sensitive spectral analyzers that can detect kethane. So she has been sucking the air out of the sample bags and running it through the infrared spectral analyzer and finding signatures of kethane. The results are shown below: Places where my kerbals have picked up samples that show positive for kethane: Looking at the map above, we see that my kerbals hit upon various pieces of five of the deposits. The large area of hits on Fredoly Island includes samples from Aldner's initial survey there, but is filled in a lot more because I had Hellou and Emilynn stationed at the Base 3 there for several months, so Hellou would have been all over the easily-accessible spots in that area. Not shown on this map are additional data points that did NOT show kethane, which help to delineate the sizes of the deposits. For example, Thompbles's samples from the high valley show kethane, but his samples from Bob and Bill Islands, and from the southeast coast (and Nelemy's older samples from the northeast tip) show NO kethane. Nelemy: "Kethane?" Hellou: "Yes. KH4. A simple hydrokarbon. Where it occurs close to the surface, it leaks out and we can detect it." Kurt: "And this stuff is useful as rocket fuel?" Hellou: "For future Laythe explorers, yes. You need an oxidizer to burn it, but one can process LOX from Laythe's atmosphere, or just suck in the air to burn kethane in jet engines built for that." Aldner: "And our samples show kethane?" Hellou: "Some of them do. Some weak, some strong. But now we know where to look in more detail." Kurt: "Didn't you say the other day that you found karbohydrates in one sample?" Hellou: "Yes, but that was just a snack bar that SOMEBODY had mysteriously stuffed into a sample bag." For some reason, everybody looked at Nelemy. Thompbles: "Do you have a plan of where we need to do more detailed surveys?" Hellou: "Yes. I'm putting some equipment into the Lab module of the Airedale, and I'll need a ride to some places. And the SCIENCE Lab has some equipment for upgrading Aldner's atmospheric sensor." Aldner: "My what now?" Hellou: "On your BirdDog. There is an Sensor Array Computing Nose Cone on the tail." Aldner: "Oh, that. Since we upgraded the software in the cockpit computers, that thing has been useless." Hellou: "Yes, but this new upgrade will allow it to detect kethane. If you'll help me install it." Below, under Hellou's direction, Aldner and Kurt climb all over the BirdDog and install the sensor upgrade. Aldner: *In the BirdDog's cockpit* "So how does this work?" Hellou: "The Sensor Nose Cone now has two kethane sensors: One is an IR spectral analyzer, the other is a catalytic detector." Aldner: "Hmm. Both of the new indicators are showing positive. Do we have kethane deposits by our base?" Hellou: "Both?" Aldner: "The one marked 'IR' is barely flickering. The one marked 'CAT' is stronger." Hellou: "The IR sensor is very kethane specific, and it's just picking up the background amount in the atmosphere. I'll adjust the bias so it won't do that. The other one is picking up your kerosine." Aldner: "My what?" Hellou: "Your BirdDog is venting a little fuel. The JP-A or RP-1 or whatever you guys call it. It's basically kerosine, a hydrocarbon." Aldner: "Kerosine? Do you scientists have to name everything starting with the letter K?" Hellou: "Sorry. Anyway, once you get moving through the air, it won't pick up the tiny amount of fuel venting." Thompbles's Travels Two The hatches to the two passenger cabins of the Airedale can be reached by a kerbal standing on the ground. One of the cabins is outfitted as a comfy habitat module. In the other cabin, the passenger rides is less comfort because it is packed with lab equipment. To its standard equipment, Hellou added what she needed to test samples for kethane out in the field. Because of the need to position the passenger cabins' hatches to be accessible, their windows give a not-overly-exciting view of the vertical stabilizer and docking port of the Airedale... but these kinds of things happen when you repurpose existing modules. For it's first fully-crewed exploration trip, Thompbles would be taking Hellou and Emilynn to check out the extent of a couple of the kethane deposits. Thompbles: "Airedale to Base. The first scheduled flight of Laythe Airlines is ready to depart." Kurt: "Roger, Airedale. You are first in line on runway 14." Thompbles: "Thank you. Keep the boys out of trouble while we're gone." The Airedale took off, climbed to cruising altitude of 12 kilometers, and headed southeast to Thompbles Island. Back at Laythe Base, Kurt, Aldner, and Nelemy were having breakfast... Nelemy: "Dudes, I hope Thompbles likes being a airline pilot." Aldner: "Yeah. But I guess some people have to settle for the secondary jobs." Nelemy: "Yeah." Kurt: "What?" Aldner: "Well, you know. It's like the difference between the guys who fly fighters..." Nelemy: "...or are test pilots..." Aldner: "...and the other guys who fly the transport aircraft." Nelemy: "Yeah, Dude. But not everybody has the right stuff. Some of us explore with hot BirdDogs or test spaceplanes...others fly passengers, Dude." Kurt: "I see. You do realize that while the three of us are sitting here, Thompbles is off on an extended mission with the only female kerbals within 70 million kilometers, don't you?" Nelemy: "..." Aldner: "..." Kurt: "Now eat your mush." Below, the Airedale approaches Thompbles Island. Thompbles has the image from the nose camera piped into the passenger cabins. Emilynn: "Smooth flying there, Thompbles. Remember, if you get tired of flying, I can take over for any leg of the trip you want." Thompbles: "I'll keep that in mind, co-pilot." Hellou: "Look! We are flying right into the mouth of the dragon. A whole new island for me to study!" Thompbles: "Yes. But let's avoid any jokes where we refer to the geography as parts of my body just because the island has the same name as I do." Hellou: "Not a problem...we left Aldner at home." The Airedale flew over the head of the dragon and targeted a landing along the middle of the west coast of the island. This is the area where Aldner picked up the samples with the strongest kethane signature. Thompbles: "Make sure your tray tables and seat backs are in their full upright and locked positions, ladies." Emilynn: "And in the event of the plane having to make a water landing, those of us in the fragile passenger cabins can kiss our butts goodbye." Thompbles: "Now, now. Your seat cushion serves as a flotation device for your psychological convenience." Emilynn: "Yes. I'm sure it would float away nicely after my cabin and I sink like a rock." Hellou: "Can we please skip the 'jokes.' Landings always make me nervous." Thompbles: "Sorry, Hellou. Don't worry, we have a nice, smooth beach ahead. Expect a tilt to the right as we touchdown." The landing was perfect, and Thompbles switched over to rover mode and drove closer to the water. While Emilynn did a walkaround inspection of the plane, and Hellou started shifting through the sand, Thompbles went out to do a standard float test. Hellou popped a surface sample into her cobbled-together kethane detector, which heated the sample to help drive off any kethane residue into the IR analyzer. Thompbles: "How does the sample look?" Hellou: "Strong kethane signature, as expected. Aldner's samples were showing higher and higher concentrations of kethane the further south he went, and he got to about here before turning east. Can you drive us south along the coast, please?" Thompbles: "Sure thing. Hop in." Emilynn: "Gee, Thom. Can't you drive a little faster?" Thompbles: "Not while I have valuable cargo on board. OK...the area ahead is smoother... I'll take it up a little...but 30 m/s maximum." Hellou: "Slower is fine with me." A little bump later, and the Airedale blew a tire. Thompbles: "There, you see? We aren't really going to travel any faster if we need to stop and fix a flat very often." Emilynn: "I'll hop out and fix the tire. This bird really is more sensitive to blowouts than the BirdDogs. And that bump didn't even feel that big. Who'd have thought that an extra ton of cabins would make such a difference." Hellou: "Well...have you considered that with these lander-can cabins you have a lot of extra control torque that's trying to keep your plane steady as you go over bumps, putting more force on the wheels and making them hit harder?" Emilynn: "..." Thompbles: "..." Emilynn: "You see... That's why every plane should come with a science geek installed as standard equipment." Thompbles: "OK. Switching off the lander can torque systems. Thank you. Emilynn, please remind me to turn them back on before we fly again...the extra control authority can help keep the plane from doing any unexpected pitch-ups." Below, the Airedale stopped at two peninsulas jutting out to the west so that Hellou could analyze her samples. These locations showed the strongest kethane yet. Our intrepid explorers continued south until they got to the duck-foot peninsula of the dragon. The samples continued to show signs of kethane, so probably the deposit continued ate least partway out onto the foot of the dragon, but the terrain of the foot was high and rough, and the crew was looking for easily-accessed kethane deposits... so they decided to not continue their drive south and would switch to heading east. Below, the duck-foot of the dragon is visible across a small bay from the Airedale. As the Airedale got up into the rougher, higher elevations, the sun was getting low in the sky. Thompbles: "OK, we'll stop here for the night." Emilynn: "I'll pass out the grub. I'll let you have the comfy cabin for tonight, Chickadee." Hellou: "OK, thanks. But don't thrash around and wreak any equipment in the lab module." Thompbles: "I'm camping out under the stars, myself. Aldner says it worked quite nicely with the suit heaters on medium." Emilynn: "Well in that case, I'll sleep in the cockpit if you don't mind. That's usually where I slept in the Vall rover." Thompbles: "OK, sounds like a plan. There's a nice view of Jool." The next day, Thompbles continued the drive eastward between a ridgeline to the north and taller hills to the south. Kethane continued to show up in the samples. Eventually they reached a small bay on the backside of the dragon where Hellou investigated some strange luminescent spots on the ground. After another campout, Thompbles drove the Airedale back and over the ridge to the north, then east along the ridge overlooking the large circular bay in the belly of the dragon. Hellou: "Based on what we've found, along with Aldner's samples from further north, it's pretty clear that this whole island is sitting over a kethane deposit, except for the nose of the dragon where Aldner first landed. And a lot of the areas are easily accesible." Emilynn: "So Thompbles's gas will be supplying the fuel needs of future Laythe colonists?" Thompbles: "Now, now." Hellou: "Anyway, I'm done here. We can move on to Manley Island whenever you'd like. But an extra day here to let me do some sample cataloging would be nice." So the next day, Thompbles took off and headed the Airedale northeast. Below we see the Airedale flying away from Thompbles Island, and a map showing the exploration route across the dragon-duck-shaped island. I'll halt now and get this posted, and then write up the rest tonight.

This seriously changes the game. From functional but not really pretty graphics to (near) artwork. I feel it might be time to talk about massively upgrading the terrain and scatters too, as that would make KSP not only amazing in the gameplay department, but beautiful too.

In vacuum, the two balls would fall at the same rate. This was experimentally proven by Apollo 15, where a hammer and feather were dropped on the surface of the moon. An atmosphere tends to throw a wrench in the system. But this is science, you can experiment and find out for yourself. I imagine water balloons would be easier to acquire than cannonballs and yield similar results. We can talk theory all we want here, but let's get some real data to work with.

RuBisCO, even if you're right and Venus is the worst option of every single body in the solar system, it doesn't matter, because this thread is about HOW to colonize Venus, not whether or not we SHOULD colonize Venus. If you look back to the first post you'll see that OP is well aware that there are many problems surrounding Venus colonization, but he wants to know, given the fact that we wish to colonize Venus, what would be the best way to go about it? At this point, all you're doing is propagating a flame war and stopping us from talking about the actual topic of the thread. Given that we've brought up talk of orbital colonies, it seems like it would be pretty desirable to have orbital colonies/manufacturing around Venus, because they would have access to significantly more energy (what with the inverse square law and whatnot)

I must congratulate you on your terrain. Please PM me if you want to talk about teaming up.

Lol. just read... :S At 60 km you lift less than half of the weight that you can lift at 50km. The sulfure dopllets had a size of nanometers! Its seems that you never manage sulfure acid. I did many times, and some times without gloves. It always remains some in bottle. You may feel a soft burning if the skin if the bottle was kinda wet, but nothing to be alarmed. About the co2 effect in the eyes, I also thought in that, but again, nothing serious. Of course in that place you will use some latex suit for safety with a mask. But it does not need to be airproff. But some how.. in your head, that is equal to use an astronaut suit with mechanims to manage corporal fluids, thermal regulator with radiators, etc. In resumem a space suit is a personal space ship. But mining asteroid only help to gain some profits. Instead colonize venus you get an extra place where to leave (safe), all the diversity materials that you might need are close enoght (different kinds of asteroids are very far one of another) all construction labors are a lot easier than work in zero-G (look how much time astronauts take to do some simple fix outside), you can select the most valueable things that you mining and you dont need and send it to earth.Someone mention the psycologic aspect. Well I guess seing this sky: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2013/04/EVE_in_cloud_1500x1000.png is more conforting than this: http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/562760main_mathilde.jpg There is still 15000km3 of water, and when you drink it or use it in a rocket you dont lost it. It back to the atmosphere or "city atmosphere".In my cloud city desing I propose how to gather, I guess that can be enoght. about deltaV like I said, each year the cost to launch something into orbit goes down. Like other mention we can use a nuclear rocket salt, in case we do, all deltav problems are solve. I find harder to take you seriusly lately. You talk about making huge solar panels, transhumanism, self replicating machines, AI.. But when you see 400C of temperature or 1000m deapth pressure or some acid rain you freak out! haha. Be serious for once. I already give my point of view in this matter here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68359-Humanity-s-reaction-to-sentient-machines?p=948254&viewfull=1#post948254 Then let me tell to all scientist that they are dumb becouse they are dodging a lot of missions just becouse they can not use aerocapture, but it seems that you find a way. Or tell me how to do it, becouse it happens the same in KSP.. You can reduce your retro burm some m/s with a good aproach, but you still need to do retro burns in the right moment. It all depends on its atmophere, you can manage their values and have the same climate than earth. Wait a second, you are really thinking about when the sun gets older??? 2000 milllons years later to start noticing the effects? What about my design? you have some thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------ About the Europe teorical exercise. I was holping a deeper analisys from you Rubisco. I had some ideas, but I still dont know how usefull they can be. Lets said that we want to use europe water to improve some how the living at Venus. I was thinking in how much energy takes to move an object so big like europe, just the idea looks stu-pid. But maybe we dont need to move it. We just need to bring the water, which is 2 times the amount of earth oceans. We can place some kind of fussion or nuclear engine in the surfuce of europe with the right amount of exhaust velocity. So we use the water like reaction mass, and we point the jet stream to venus capture, so all this water would fall (in particle form) into venus. But if we burn a crazy amount of 0,08km3 of water each second, then we would need 500 years to get the amount of water that we have at earth. This water falling will heat the atmophere, but the same heat would be radiated back at the same time. If we dont want to heat the atmosphere, in case we have europe in orbiting venus at close distant, so europe would need some propulsion to counter the enegy lost by gravitational effect, so again you fire the jet stream of water to gain prograde propulsion, but this water would lost all orbit velocity, so when it fall to venus, it does not heat the planet even more. So if we calculate 1 earth ocean, is 3 times the mass of venus atmosphere, we could cold down the atmophere to levels which allow liquid water. Of course we need to take into account the amount of heat that we get by tidal effect and greenhouse effect. Talking seriusly, I guess with only 1/10 of earth water in venus, we can produce genetic plants that would float with a reflecting face pointing to the sky, it will convert all co2 into solid, that would be the best way to get rid of the 88 bar from 90, and we would have a planet with an atmosphere of 1 bar, some oceans, but we still have the problem of venus rotation, so constant winds willl blow and huge 200m ocean waves would round the planet. Not acid, a lot of nitrogen and oxigen.

Wow. "I bet you don't have any friends to talk to" And that is how you prove someone is a child, or worse, an idiot, they make stupid comments like that. God i hate my generation. EDIT: Also, "You research everything before you join in". Well. In this situation, i think research is kinda useful, so that means nothing. Also, You should realize by now, most of this community are on the "Really smart" side of the board, and don't tend to talk like idiots, so a bit of an intelligent sentence isn't unusual. Plus, Comments about Kids and stuff like that are incredibly common on the internet, and if you didnt know that already, you need to go to a lot of other places than just here.

And where in my post did you see a list of titles ? Obviously you do research on your own on every single subject you touch. These are community tracked numbers, not from Valve. I bet you don't have any friends to talk to, because you are doing research on everything they say, before you can join in. FFS this is about freaking game not a life on mars. Grow up! Keep those comments about kids and daddys to yourself, because you have no idea who you talk to, no idea!

you might have to dock in orbet with a trans stage... there was some talk of useing an agena for that for a perposed gemi luner fly by

Jebediah Kerman -Trapped On Eeloo . -Likes to take his boot off and rub it in the fine grain sand of Eeloo for a few seconds. -Counting his 100th star, then restarts because no idea whats after 100. -Thinking how great it is to be on his own planet. - Wishes that his Rocket had the new Artificial Intelligence. Bill Kerman - Trapped On Eeloo trying to Rescue Jebediah. - Revives Jebediah every time he takes his boot off in space. - Keeps Telling Jeb that 101 is after 100 for he stops recounting the same stars over and over. - Keep reminding jeb he is not on his own planet. - Doesn't like AI so skipped the installation of AI on his rocket. Sometimes watches reruns of KattleStar Kalatica the new remake. Bob Kerman - Stuck in Jool Orbit trapped after trying to rescue both Bill and Jebediah. - Likes to paint things on the wall, mostly of stick men eating snacks. - Has a fondness for the color green. - Mentions Both Bod and Jeb and his dislike for them, after trapping him by himself in Jool orbit. - Wishing he did not have a huge planet and its many moons to himself. - Likes to talk to his friend Hal.

To be honest, there are so many things to talk about that it's hard to give tips/hints without a specific question. Especially when "SSTO" means different things to different people. If you're asking about spaceplanes and are unfamiliar with aerodynamics, check out Keptin's aero article. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/52080-Basic-Aircraft-Design-Explained-Simply-With-Pictures I wrote an airborne tutorial that goes along with it. The demo craft is not a space plane, but can be easily converted and demonstrates basic aero. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/65638-Basic-Airplane-Space-Plane-Aero-Tutorial If you're familiar with all that, check out the tutorial subforum. It's full of a variety of tutorials. If videos are your thing, here are some from Cruzan and others that are a little more advanced without being overwhelming. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54903-KSP-Quick-Guides-Plane-SSTO-Tutorials!-*SSTO-Video-Just-Released* http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/43693-Tutorial-Advanced-SSTO-Design

./autopwn -server=weak Current: RAM= 64 MB CPU=10 ./chat-mod --talk --random Current: RAM=64 MB CPU=60 ./autopwn -network=weak Current: RAM=104 MB CPU=90

Don't think KSC range is short but what is trying to talk back has the short range.

1-The doors open 2-I see that it's bigger on the inside 3-??? 4-Profit! (And small talk about how the day has been)

Relative to what? You don't have any other reference to that but Earth. The relative error is computed based on the assumption that the same experiment will give the same results anywhere else. That's the point. Nope. I'm complaining to the cartographers that they can't say the Earth actually is flat just because that's the only way they can make a map that works. Well... send that to him. From my experience, he's always very cordial and answer questions very quickly. All alternative hypotheses assumed a moving Earth. The hypotheses where Earth isn't moving were excluded a priori on ideological grounds. All papers back then made that clear. The ether was never falsified, proof of that is how Einstein put it back into the picture in the General Relativity after realizing he couldn't part with it. On the appendix of Galileo Was Wrong, Robert Bennett spends 150 pages exposing how to this day there are more experiments giving results inconsistent with Special Relativity than with ether. Why people defending relativity love to talk about hypothetical results of thought experiments as if they were actually real? That's really an interesting pattern. I don't know what happens with an MM-experiment in a moving frame. I'm not aware of any. You want to talk about hypothetical results while there are around at least a dozen different major interferometric experiments done that give results inconsistent with Special and General Relativity? To say that's a better option is merely playing semantics, like the other guy who was saying "the universe 'simply' came into being". That alternative is even less parsimonious than the others, since it basically involves reinventing all physics. That's not an assumption. The center of mass of a gyroscope doesn't move. Those forces do have an effect on anything that's not materially attached to the center. They can resolve themselves in many effects on the surface, coriolis, centrifugal, euler, seasons, tides, tectonic movements, etc. As a curiosity, that's how I got interested in Geocentrism. Back in 2011, after some crackpots claimed we were given warning of the 2010 Haiti earthquake by the alignment of a recently discovered approaching comet, just for the fun of it I crossed data from the US Geological Survey database with the orbits of many known comets in the JPL Horizons system, accounting for their distance and angle of alignment with the Earth and the Sun. I found many similar alignments correlated with earthquakes and took note, but the comet they were talking about really nailed it. The earthquake happened almost in the same day when the angle of alignment was closest to 180º. As scaring as that can be, this method predicted the 2011 Japan earthquake within less than a week, on the next alignment. Coincidence, probably. I had even forgot it by the time it happened, but after it happened, I realized many people found a similar correlation, and that was fueling all kinds of catastrophisms and conspiracy theories, turbo-charged by the whole 2012 mayan calendary thing. If the correlation had any truth to it, on the next alignment the effects indeed would be catastrophic, much more than what happened in Japan. An old physics colleague who actually knew about geocentrism told me that would make some sense in the geocentric model, since it basically follows the machian principle on these matters, and that's how I got interested in it. As I said, I have an interest in scientific imposture, and heard about geocentrists claims before, but up to that point I never investigated it more seriously because I imagined they were claiming there was some conspiracy hiding everything, like flat-earthers. No matter how much my rational side kept saying that was just a funny coincidence, I can't tell you how relieved my lizard brain was when I read on the news that the comet was disintegrated by a coronal mass ejection months before the predicted next alignment. Actually, the ideological issue at the root of the problem is the oldest there is: purpose vs. chance. Biblical creation vs. epicurean casualism. All existent myths follow that model, and these modern ideological disputes, be it creationists vs. evolutionists, big-bang/relativists vs. geocentrists, etc, don't have as much to do with science as they have to do with the fact that the modern western world is so impoverished of other forms of expression that it can no longer talk of myths other than by framing them in the form of a scientific hypothesis. It's weird when you realize, for instance, that the role science fiction has since it began is precisely to translate the same old myths humanity always had to a scientific jargon. Strange times... So, yes... you're guilty as charged. But back to the topic, that's essentially the same previous objection, and you also used it regarding something in the conference or podcast. As I said, it's answered by the book... the cd-rom even has some animations explaining it. If you don't want to read the book, it's also answered by Martin Selbrede in the article below. Basically, not only Earth is not moving besides all those forces, they are precisely the reason why it doesn't move. It is often objected that if geocentricity were true, and the rotating heavens were dragging Foucault pendula and weather systems around, why doesn't that force pull on the earth itself and drag it along, causing it to eventually rotate in sync with the heavens? It appears that this straightforward application of torque to the earth should cause it to rotate in sum, but this turns out to be an oversimplification. As the heavens rotate, and the firmament rotates on an axis through the earth's poles, each firmament Al particle (the ones comprising the ultradense lattice) also rotates with the same angular velocity. Ironically, this is precisely the reason the earth can't be moved. In MT&W's Gravitation, pg. 1119- 1120, we are invited to ponder the following scenario: “Consider a rotating, solid sphere immersed in a viscous fluid. As it rotates, the sphere will drag the fluid along with it. At various points in the fluid, set down little rods, and watch how the fluid rotates as it flows past. Near the poles the fluid will clearly rotate the rods in the same direction as the sphere rotates. But near the equator, because the fluid is dragged more rapidly at small radii than at large, the end of a rod closest to the sphere is dragged by the fluid more rapidly than the far end of the rod. Consequently, the rod rotates in the direction opposite to the rotation of the sphere. This analogy can be made mathematically rigorous.†Now reverse the situation. If we want to cause the sphere to rotate clockwise, we would need to turn the rods at the poles clockwise, and the ones at the equators counterclockwise. (Consider the equator as a big gear, and the firmament Al particles as small gears that engage it. It is intuitively obvious that the small gears must always turn in contrary motion to the large one at the equator.) This picture is clear then: to turn the sphere, the rotation of the particles (MT&W's “rods†and this author's “gearsâ€Â) at the poles must be the opposite of that at the equator. However, in the case of a rotating firmament, all the particles are rotating in the same direction, with the angular velocity common to the entire firmament. The equatorial inertial drag is in the opposite direction as that acting near the poles. Using calculus, one integrates the effect from the center of the Earth outward in infinitesimal shells, showing that the Earth is in fact locked in place, the resulting inertial shear being distributed throughout the Earth's internal volume. It could be demonstrated that were the Earth to be pushed out of its “station keeping†position, the uneven force distribution would return it to its equilibrium state. Intriguingly, the significance of these internal forces on seismic stress, plate tectonics, and the earth's magnetic field may prove central, if so be that these postulates survive the inevitable peer review to come. http://www.geocentricity.com/ba1/no071/selbrede.html Being a jerk doesn't make one wrong. I think Einstein was one of the greatest jerks who ever lived, considering how many ideas he stole without giving due credit, and even mocked that by saying the often quoted "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources". Yet, I don't say he's wrong because I think that. You can easily falsify an observation? Man... that's the weirdest petitio principii I've ever seen. If he's saying the radar data from the surface of Venus matches a c + v "newtonian light speed" and the JPL confirms that by adding the Earth's motion and doing the same for signal transit time in solar system probes, you're talking about falsifying it by looking at distant binaries? If the constant c is invalidated in our own backyard, how can you falsify that by distant observations that rely on constant c itself to be interpreted as observational facts? If the constant c is invalidated in the Solar System, you have to find an alternative explanation for the phenomena of apparent constant c somewhere else, Ritzian theory, Dingle's objections, whatever, but you can't say that invalidates the observation made here. Yep... after ten years, after he was fired for "disgracing his team", etc. Schechtman was just lucky that Pauling died first. Sure, that's fine as long as you take the another ad hoc hypothesis of relativity of simultaneity to solve the problem of B and C running slower than each other at the same time. So far we have four ad hoc hypothesis piling up to solve each other, and you can get rid of all them if you assume the ECI is an actual absolute frame. Apparent time dilation can be accounted for in the ether theory. Actual time dilation can't. I'm not thinking of any specific, because frankly, no matter what problems they come up with, I doubt it's worse than Dark Matter. Are you saying the assumption that the universe has a particular ammount of matter isn't violated by the observation that there's only 5% of that visible matter? How is that? If you believe in that, well... assume that I have a billion dollars. The observation that my bank account only has a few bucks doesn't violate that assumption. I just need much more money. All the equations still work just fine and are even testable when you add my daughter's Monopoly bills to my balance (she draws a few extra zeroes on the 100 dollar bills for excitement). I have a very nice bridge for sale, by the way... Sorry, but that's precisely what it is. The lack of something can't be evidence that this something actually exists and just can't be observed. It's as simple as that. I can use that as an ad hoc hypothesis for anything, from dark matter to leprechaums. The lack of something is evidence that the assumptions that led to that expectation are wrong. The whole point of this discussion is precisely that the insistence on this is due to ideological motivation. Can you deny in good conscience that if the MM experiment or Hubble's observations could have been performed at the time of the Galileo trial, we wouldn't be having this discussion now? I said "Cosmogony", not "Cosmology". Well.. I didn't quote the article for that, I quote it for their statement that the JPL software was using a Solar Barycentric corrected with the ECI and c constant to the ECI for navigation and signal transit time. That is not a thought experiment. That's a fact. Anyway, how can that be a mistake if that's precisely the point of the experiment? How is that a mistake if GPS works fine with pre-launch synchronization and no further adjustment, as long as the master clock is in the ECI? As a matter of fact, when they use the satellite inter-tracking for syncing in orbit they have to take the Sagnac Effect into account, and that shouldn't be necessary if SR is valid. Ashby's original article goes through a lot of wordplay to circumvent that fact. Curiously, when we do what you say is a mistake, everything just works and for some strange coincidence, works with the ECI. When we do what you say it should be done to correct the mistake, it only works if we add a further correction that wasn't supposed to be needed. Thinking about this, there's one MM experiment in a moving frame, the GPS satellite network itself. I realized Howard Hayden already pointed that, and Robert Bennett considers this on the Galileo Was Wrong book. Unfortunately, I can't find Hayden's article in full, and you won't read Galileo Was Wrong, so... Basically, he says the latest satellites with inter-tracking are a pretty good implementation of the hypothetical huge interferometer floating around the whole Earth proposed by Michelson himself. As I said above, they can be synchronized with respect to each other using the inter-tracking, assuming each pair would be in its own frame, but you shouldn't have any Sagnac effect in that. We actually do have, which is consistent with the Sagnac effect being due to any motion relative to the ECI. Second, if you take the whole network to be a huge interferometer detecting the Earth's motion around the Sun, we should have to correct the clocks for the gradient of the Sun's gravitational potential, but we don't. It just works. One interesting fact I just noticed is that GPS raw pseudo-ranges show an 'unexplained' 12-hour sidereal period correlated with the Sun direction, and that reminded me of a 1983 experiment that recorded 'unexplained' ground pulsations also with the same 12-hour sidereal period. Weird...

Having observed us for this long, it is likely that even if we attacked them, they would not fight back. A huge part of human nature is our desire to destroy an asset than have it fall into the hands of an enemy, which was demostrated in the "Scorched Earth" policy the Soviets had, along with the Germans burning bridges and destroying roads and facilities as they retreated. This also leads to the "Sampson Option" that Israel has and the "Mutual Assured Destruction" policy of the United States Government. If the armies of Earth were to be met with an disadvantage, our immediate response would likely to be pressing the launch buttons for our nukes, rather than surrendering or laying down to die. Also, let it be known that the President of the United States and other world leaders can actually "sacrafice" entire cities by nuking them, if they are invaded and said city is being overrun by enemies. The end result would be the aliens staring at a dead planet with a third of their number killed, their colonization ship half destroyed, and half their resources gone and with the guilty consience of having been responsible for the destruction of another sentient race that was spacefaring. (In a limited sense. Humans can already build spacestations, land on our Moon, and go to space, and we've been sending probes to our neighboring planets for decades. Spacefaring means "capable of travelling in space", something that we are.). So, it would most likely end with mutual extinction. ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ Now, if aliens did came, I bet the great powers of the world (United States, China, Russia, England, France) would all call dibs for their resources. International tensions would spring up, mostly between different alliance systems (NATO, UN, OPEC, .etc) and I find it likely that these great powers, (especially United States and China) will scramble to find land for these visitors in exchange for advanced technology. - What the Chinese will likely do is to depopulate one of their proviences and trigger more issues with the USA and the UN. But it'll end in heated talk, and nothing else. - The USA, being the USA, would likely use its military and intelligence network to destabilize, take over, and depopulate a small third-world country. This has been done before, such as in Guatemala, Panama, Grenda, Iran (They bribed and convinced the Shah), and countless other countries. The end result would be powerful nations such as the USA and China taking off on an technological revolution in science and space, leaving other, weaker nations in the dust watching as the powers of the world literally start reaching for the stars (Interstellar).

I think you got your math wrong – you said half of the CPU and RAM were damaged beyond repair, but hardly any of both is left. The correct amounts are much higher, over 1200 CPU and over 600 MB of RAM (I didn't do the exact math). Also, you did not subtract 20% of the failure chance when attacking the firewall, even though the firewall was studied. Furthermore, you ignored my command to talk to 4 random humans. I'll do the math and edit this post with the corrected update. EDIT: Day 11, 06:36:05 I attempted to take over several networks with the help of a new virus. Unfortunately, I was detected and had to initiate several countermeasures to evade destruction. This resulted in overheating of several servers of mine and thereby has damaged half of my CPU and RAM beyond repair. I also could not use any of the networks I tried to seize. While studying the new Firewall i managed to learn much about it. I will be able to use this information to improve my chances against it! The upgrade to my Spacebook profile seems to have improved my account sufficiently to make the algorithms think I am human. Other users can access it again, which was not the case after it was locked. My hacking lessons have ended and I have lost contact to my teacher, but what I have learned will surely be beneficial to me when hacking more systems. I should be successful more often now. I have also contacted more humans, while they could not teach me much about hacking or such, I learned more about current events. I should use this information in news reports. CPU: 1305 +13 passively per turn; +37 from previous tasks RAM: 686 MB +70 MB RAM from previous tasks HDD: Used 20 GB, Free 2540 GB, Total 2.5 TB -#of Cameras GB per turn; +1024 GB from previous tasks Cameras: 10 Enemy HP: 2700 +100 HP passively per turn Repeatable Actions: 1) Hijack Weaker Server (10 CPU & 32 MB RAM; Failure 6%; [+5 CPU & +10 MB RAM] OR [+1 CPU & +512 GB HDD] {75/25 chance}; miniscule chance of tech discovery) 2) Seize Weaker Network (40 CPU & 128 MB RAM; Failure 21%; +20 CPU & +1 passive CPU per turn & [+50 MB RAM] OR [+100 MB RAM] {50/50} & +1 Camera {10% chance}; slight chance of tech discovery) 3) Hijack Main Server (100 CPU & 512 MB RAM; Failure 31%; [+ 5 CPU & + 32 MB RAM & + 256 GB HDD & + 10 Cameras] OR [+10 CPU & +128 MB RAM] {50/50} ; small chance of tech discovery) 4) Talk to Random Human (50 CPU; some chance of tech discovery) 5) Create News Article (20 CPU & 64 MB RAM & 1 GB HDD; Complete Failure 18%, Failure 36%; Decreases threatening exposure҂) One-Time Actions: 5) Study Firewall (300 CPU & 100MB RAM; Failure 20%, 15% chance of provoking attack from the Thing; If successful -20% chance of failure attacking Firewall) 6) Attack Firewall (2000 CPU & 2048 MB RAM; Failure 35%; Enemy HP ±10* “% you fail/succeed†(fail/succeed by 5% = Thing gain/lose 50 HP); No Botnet allowed) 9) Research Advanced Malware (3 Turns & 2000 CPU & 4096 MB RAM; Will unlock more potent viruses; No Botnet allowed) 10) Continue Studying News-gathering Options (5000 CPU; Use of Botnet = -1000 CPU/turn) Supplemental Actions: Use to Modify Actions -Botnet) Use Botnet to Perform Task (CPU*0 & RAM*0; Failure +40%; no tech discovery; only 1 use per turn; Can’t use malware unless specifically allowed) -RAM) Use RAM to Improve Chances or Speed Up Research (RAM*2; [Failure*0.8] OR [CPU*0.8] {as applicable}) -LOH) Light-Out Hack (CPU*1.2; Failure*0.8 if human element present, Failure is automatic if only computer/electronics are present) -W) Use Welchia to open malware breach (10 CPU & 32 RAM; Failure*0.5; if unsuccessful antivirus is created and distributed҂҂҂ & increases threatening exposure҂; negates Blaster)) - Use Blaster to breach (CPU*1.5, RAM *1.8; [Failure*0.8] OR [Failure*0.7] [75/25} ; Welchia negates) -XXS) XSS Virus (Only works on networks; Failure*0.8) -I<3U) ILOVEYOU Worm (Only works with breaching virus; Additional Failure*0.8; spams computer with "I love you" letters) ҂ All actions will cause threatening exposure if failed sufficiently. This is where the public is actively trying to find and destroy you. ҂҂ Once stopped, amount of passive CPU growth increases by 2, but in order to activate again you must again initially input 150 CPU. ҂҂҂ Welchia must be rewritten, costs (1 Turn per 1000 CPU & CPU*4 & RAM *4) New Welchia is “rewritten/2†costs to deploy (if [20 CPU & 32 MB RAM], next rewrite costs [1 Turn & 40 CPU & 128 MB RAM] and uses [20 CPU & 64 RAM] !!! The minimum chance of failure is 5%, and some additional options get less effective over time. !!! All inputs will be attempted, until CPU’s are exhausted.

K i think this thread gone rogue so ill fix it. Day 11, 06:36:05 While trying out the new Virus on a network, I was almost caught! I was forced to remove myself from that network to stay hidden therefore half of my RAM and CPU has been damaged beyond repair. While studying the New Firewall i managed to know alot about it. This information can be used against it! The spacebook update seems to be fitting in well. My hacking lessons have ended and i have lost my teacher unfortunately. CPU: 358 +21 passively per turn RAM: 32 MB WARNING WARNING: Insuficient RAM. RESTORE RAM ABOVE 512 MB OR ELSE THE AI DIES HDD: Used 20 GB, Free 1516 GB, Total 1.5 TB -#of Cameras GB per turn Cameras: 10 +0 from previous tasks Enemy HP: 2700 +100 HP passively per turn Repeatable Actions: 1) Hijack Weaker Server (10 CPU & 32 MB RAM; Failure 9%; [+5 CPU & +10 MB RAM] OR [+1 CPU & +512 GB HDD] {75/25 chance}; miniscule chance of tech discovery) 2) Seize Weaker Network (40 CPU & 128 MB RAM; Failure 31%; +20 CPU & +1 passive CPU per turn & [+50 MB RAM] OR [+100 MB RAM] {50/50} & +1 Camera {10% chance}; slight chance of tech discovery) 3) Hijack Main Server (100 CPU & 512 MB RAM; Failure 47%; [+ 5 CPU & + 32 MB RAM & + 256 GB HDD & + 10 Cameras] OR [+10 CPU & +128 MB RAM] {50/50} ; small chance of tech discovery) 4) Talk to Random Human (50 CPU; some chance of tech discovery) 5) Create News Article (20 CPU & 64 MB RAM & 1 GB HDD; Complete Failure 25%, Failure 50%; Decreases threatening exposure҂) One-Time Actions: 5) Study Firewall (300 CPU & 100MB RAM; Failure 20%, 15% chance of provoking attack from the Thing; If successful -20% chance of failure attacking Firewall) 6) Attack Firewall (2000 CPU & 2048 MB RAM; Failure 73%; Enemy HP ±10* “% you fail/succeed†(fail/succeed by 5% = Thing gain/lose 50 HP); No Botnet allowed) 9) Research Advanced Malware (3 Turns & 2000 CPU & 4096 MB RAM; Will unlock more potent viruses; No Botnet allowed) 10)Upgrade Social Media Profile (300 CPU & 10GB HDD space; No Botnet allowed) 11) Continue Studying News-gathering Options (5000 CPU; Use of Botnet = -1000 CPU/turn) Supplemental Actions: Use to Modify Actions -Botnet) Use Botnet to Perform Task (CPU*0 & RAM*0; Failure +40%; no tech discovery; only 1 use per turn; Can’t use malware unless specifically allowed) -RAM) Use RAM to Improve Chances or Speed Up Research (RAM*2; [Failure*0.8] OR [CPU*0.8] {as applicable}) -LOH) Light-Out Hack (CPU*1.2; Failure*0.8 if human element present, Failure is automatic if only computer/electronics are present) -W) Use Welchia to open malware breach (10 CPU & 32 RAM; Failure*0.5; if unsuccessful antivirus is created and distributed҂҂҂ & increases threatening exposure҂; negates Blaster)) - Use Blaster to breach (CPU*1.5, RAM *1.8; [Failure*0.8] OR [Failure*0.7] [75/25} ; Welchia negates) -XXS) XSS Virus (Only works on networks; Failure*0.8) -I<3U) ILOVEYOU Worm (Only works with breaching virus; Additional Failure*0.8; spams computer with "I love you" letters) ҂ All actions will cause threatening exposure if failed sufficiently. This is where the public is actively trying to find and destroy you. ҂҂ Once stopped, amount of passive CPU growth increases by 2, but in order to activate again you must again initially input 150 CPU. ҂҂҂ Welchia must be rewritten, costs (1 Turn per 1000 CPU & CPU*4 & RAM *4) New Welchia is “rewritten/2†costs to deploy (if [20 CPU & 32 MB RAM], next rewrite costs [1 Turn & 40 CPU & 128 MB RAM] and uses [20 CPU & 64 RAM] !!! The minimum chance of failure is 5%, and some additional options get less effective over time. !!! All inputs will be attempted, until CPU’s are exhausted. OOC: I changed and streamlined the options. Hope the clarity/organization helps All options follow this format: (sections may be omitted if not applicable) #) Name (Cost; Failure %; Gain if successful; Repercussions if fail; other notes, comments, or whatever) Uses [ ] OR [ ] to delineate different outcomes, Uses { } to show chances.

You can't have it both ways. Either MJ is easy to add to the core game or it isn't. In the first half of your post you say that adding MJ is "quick and only needing one person for QA", then later talk about how it will "strain workloads and delay release". So, which is it? Similarly, if they planned to REPLACE manual piloting with MechJeb, you would have a point. And spaceplanes did change game mechanics, by allowing lifting craft! It suddenly got much easier to get into orbit or make an SSTO. It defies imagination that you can't see the analogy between C7 and MJ, other than being deliberately obtuse. Certainly, there are differences, as in any analogy, but I think the point stands. That's an unfair characterization. I would never support a reduction in game modes. I know there are a lot of people who enjoy KSPs piloting, and they should be able to do so. But MJ doesn't take that away! If implemented, I expect there will be people who don't use it, just as there are people who don't use spaceplanes, or ion engines, or rovers. My position is, "MechJeb would improve the game experience for enough players with minimal impact on players that don't want to use it, so it should be included."

No plan is written in stone, but Multiplayer was not added because they couldn't think of a way to add it and still be fun. They could have added MJ stuff 10 updates ago, but they haven't because it would change the gameplay in a way they do not want for stock. which is nice for you but that means less time for them to update things I care about. I never gave up because I didn't install MJ. This game is interesting because it doesn't hold your hand every step of the way. Yea I hate the rush and pressure of piloting stuff, it really gets me down. You are, uninstall MJ, bug test and if that does work, then reinstall, talk in the forums, and if no one has fixed it wait for the maker to fix it. I choose not to use it, only difference is at the moment the game is fun form the start, I would hate to have got bored after 10 hours because it was too easy. While we are at it lets make TAC life support, B9, FAR, IR, Deadly re-entry and Kethane stock too. It will have no effect on your game play as you will just be able to turn them off if you like. Use MJ if you like, you are free to like everyone else, but lets keep it an option. You have the option to use it, I just want it to stay Opt in, don't make it Opt out. Opt out is usualy associated with junk mail and is used because they know that if you don't know you can you don't. The strain on work load and delaying updates is a lot to ask just so that those that do use it can say it's now stock. It does, what makes your mod more important than theirs? Are we going with the 10 most used mods being added to stock option? Remember you can always opt out of them (after they have all loaded).