Will version 1.0 bring changes to how science is obtained?

[Moonfrog]

This is something that has always bothered me, but since there doing a whole rebalancing, does anyone know if they are making any changes to how science is done in relation to the parts and how they work, using transmission and recovery?

[vexx32]

Moved to Development Discussion.

I've not personally heard anything concrete on this subject, unfortunately.

[Kelderek]

This is just a guess, but I would assume that they probably balanced most of the science collection when they did the biome update. If anything, they may alter the science costs in the tech tree and move things around there

[Moonfrog]

no news that they are going to change the transmission at 25% and recovery basically gets most of it always type way of doing it?

I had hoped they would move to a transmission specific science parts, like temperature and data readings are transmission 100% automatic. Material bays and goo pod bays are kerbal manned specific and need recovery. I always find its a bit botched in taht originally recovery was pointless in science collection cos u just transmitted repeatedly, then it was updated, now transmission is pointless u just do recovery.

Changing my question too, Do you think parts should be made transmission and recovery specific, just get rid of the percentages invovled in the transmit or keep choice. Science lab could then be used to transmit recovery only data. Since its a lab.

[Sampa]

no news that they are going to change the transmission at 25% and recovery basically gets most of it always type way of doing it?

I had hoped they would move to a transmission specific science parts, like temperature and data readings are transmission 100% automatic. Material bays and goo pod bays are kerbal manned specific and need recovery. I always find its a bit botched in taht originally recovery was pointless in science collection cos u just transmitted repeatedly, then it was updated, now transmission is pointless u just do recovery.

Changing my question too, Do you think parts should be made transmission and recovery specific, just get rid of the percentages invovled in the transmit or keep choice. Science lab could then be used to transmit recovery only data. Since its a lab.

I'm hoping we can eventually get different experiment reactions from different mission types (manned or unmanned). Case in point...if you do a single experiment unmanned, it is then useless to do a manned flight to do the same thing! REALLY?!

[basic.syntax]

Great discussion fodder. I recall something, perhaps in a Squadcast summary, that suggested Science might be getting a look for 1.0. That wasn't a commitment to What or How. I think its a mess for new players to sort out, requiring right-clicks on the various science parts attached to a ship... that you have to go looking for, when in space.

I would like to see a new Science UI panel expose all the different science gathering possibilities that are available on a craft.

Somewhat related to this, is a discussion (that grew into) how science parts might be changed.

[Moonfrog]

I mean something like this.

Science material bay. Recovery only can't transmit.

Temperature, transmit 100%.

as it is now transmitting and probes are not that useful. Be nice if there were probe specific science parts, and manned ship science parts. Camera taking pictures of the Mun could be transmit one at 100%, moonrocks are to be taken back and studied for recovery, can't transmit them.

[basic.syntax]

I think the idea of some science being transmit or recovery only, is interesting, but the thread title was very broad, and invites more than just this

I'm not sure where to place the dividing line among existing science gathering methods.

In RL, we are doing almost all planetary science remotely, and transmitting. Recovery of samples would obviously get us "more data."

It might be nice to have a new surface sampling part, I thought that would be an interesting way to introduce comets, and make them a little different from asteroids or new planets, that many players would like to see added.

So, I like that we can transmit SOME data about a surface sample, perhaps in the Great Rebalancing, the transmit value could be reduced.

Since surface sampling today is a thing only Kerbals can do, most of the time we are doing a return mission and getting full value.

[tater]

Changing transmit rates, etc, is just more of the same. There needs to be a paradigm shift.

There are really 3 types of relevant science for KSP.

"Basic" or "pure" science, which in KSP is largely planetary science (though clearly physics and astrophysics are in there as well).

Medical science, which in KSP terms is the medical aspects of spaceflight (life support, physiological implications of low g, radiation, etc).

Spaceflight science, which would be the applied science (engineering) of rocketry, etc.

Any manned mission could generate Medical science at a low level (testing physiological response to weightlessness, etc). In RL, the medical aspects saturated fairly quickly in terms of knowledge gained (I chatted with Dr. William Douglas, the Mercury flight surgeon numerous times about space medicine before he died (he lived here in town).) So steep increase in understanding, then it sort of levels off. Still, you could fold aspects of life support into medical to broaden the need for "points" there.

Spaceflight science can also be gained via almost any mission you could imaging, even the parts testing stuff. Really, the basic science should not provide points for tech at a high level, which either means devaluing those points, or having each tech node use a multi-point system (new lander can needs 50% spaceflight science points, 40% medical, and 10% planetary, while a new fuel tank and engine node requires 100% spaceflight science, and 0% anything else, etc).

Heck, I like the idea of more science specific to a given world. Orbital science (visual surveys, or ideally cameras) increases the map resolution, and then shows vague areas where (in 1.0) resources MIGHT be. Then landing or other science points built up within those areas unlocks the actual location where you need to mine.

This makes reasonable tiers of data collection (broad surveys, leading to the requirement for other instruments to be employed to narrow the area). That's what I'd prefer.

[Superfluous J]

Maxmaps specifically said that Science is one of the oldest systems in the game and will see a significant rework. I remember it because I happened to do the summary of that squadcast when OWK was too busy.

Whether or not that means WE will think it's significant, no one can tell. But it's a good sign.

[basic.syntax]

Great ideas tater. I'm of two minds, since I also like the "cuteness factor" that was established by just calling everything "science" to support a single "science" resource for career mode. We can declare everything we do is "For Science!" and lol or roll eyes at the Hitchhiker can IVA labels

[tater]

I think from the perspective of a player, what I want first is for it to be useful in gameplay, as in changing the map zoom, allowing me to see geomes (or whatever we want to call them minus BIOLOGY that is explicit in biome), knowing the atmosphere height precisely, etc., instead of being "points" used to buy tech. Secondly, I'd like it to be more involved than sending a crew report, clicking an experiment, etc.

Scansat is how the orbital stuff should be done for visual mapping, and possibly an analog for other science done from orbit. You'd at least then need to place sats in orbits that cover the areas you want to explore further. Perhaps as you gain science on a given world you unlock what is basically the wiki page on it, but throw some gaming bones as well. When you send a probe and analyze the atmosphere and gravity of Duna more precisely than was available from Kerbin, you unlock an in-game aerobraking addition to the maneuver nodes (when your conic intersects the atmosphere, it gets properly altered based upon your craft). There is a reason for a recon mission with cool science experiments.

Someone posted that a mod uses seismometers along with impacts? That or they suggested it. Great idea. I just want more to do...

I get the "Science!" notion. It could be color coded, not named, if you prefer. Blue for medical, green for planetary, red for explosions, erm, rocketry.

[basic.syntax]

Biome, geome... I was thinking let's just calling them Regions, since the map geography is all we are told to care about, per your point that there is no bio stuff to be found. I've not used scansat, but seen some pictures, and think its a good idea. Exposing the garish texture map colors used to designate biomes to players all at once, would be immersion breaking, in my view.

I would like to see a more in-character way (like scansat, and perhaps a kerbal in-helmet HUD) to show biome-regional information to players. Without mapping information, I have no way to know that this or that crater or hill might be worth investigating, until I go there. And it might be a looong distance away. The game needs to offer better clues to players.

Experienced players don't just want more science variety (great ideas there,) they should have reasons to DO the science - the Great Rebalance will hopefully need a ton more science to be performed, to unlock all the toys. (Fine Print contract "science" seems a bit tacked on, hehe. After the tree is unlocked, only the money matters.) My hopes for more reasons for doing science are pinned on Resources, something that has greater use for mid-to-late game scenarios.

Edit: tater's ideas of more realistically tying certain types of science activities to game abilities or parts , would be awesome. But would some players balk at being required to do specific things they might not enjoy as much, versus following the cheapest, easiest, or their favorite route to science points and all the unlocks, that they follow today?

Edited February 27, 2015 by basic.syntax

[dryer_lint]

I certainly hope that they change science in [shamelessselfpromotion]certain ways[/shamelessselfpromotion].

Seriously though, science does need some fixing. Way too much random clicking at the moment.

[Scoundrel]

With resources being implemented, we could expand science and sample collection to include geology experiments that reveal resources besides the usual radar-dish-on-a-satellite routine. Also I wouldn't mind an early mission to a specific biome on Kerbin to collect Goo to unlock our Mystery Goo containers.

[tater]

Map view could have layer toggles. You need visual mapping to get detailed map zoom visually. Radar mapping might be added to provide more accurate altitude data. Gravimetric, seismic, and collection should be required for any ore marking on the map---though visual might illuminate places that are good bets to check further.

[mattinoz]

I certainly hope so....

Interestedly one of the main features of RoverDude's Regolith resource framework is that it works when the ship isn't focused, and now he's working with Squad at a time they are working on Resources.

So say they rebuild science on top of top of this new resources framework then allow for science over time. That to me could go along way to varying science collection from click button at the right time. This could open up the scope and range of science challenges in the game. To me addressing click science would fix the main shortcoming of the career game. Seeing 1.0 is apparently going to fix most of the others already I hope we see some science love.

Opportunities like say collect continuous temperature data between these two points.

or collect data from opposite sides of the same body at the same time.

That and well Cameras would be good too.

[basic.syntax]

Just by reading (I haven't used this) Regolith includes the concept of scanner resolution, returning various levels of information, and some of this can be tied into first visiting a biome -umm, geographic area / region. And thus, any new scansat type of science could also be an advanced tech feature, either requiring a ground survey first, or the ground visit unlocking / providing the most detailed info - independently of satellite parts.

[Moonfrog]

WOuld a device used for a rover to do a geological survey of a planet be of interest to people? just an idea i had after reading the new replies.

[John FX]

no news that they are going to change the transmission at 25% and recovery basically gets most of it always type way of doing it?

I had hoped they would move to a transmission specific science parts, like temperature and data readings are transmission 100% automatic. Material bays and goo pod bays are kerbal manned specific and need recovery. I always find its a bit botched in taht originally recovery was pointless in science collection cos u just transmitted repeatedly, then it was updated, now transmission is pointless u just do recovery.

Changing my question too, Do you think parts should be made transmission and recovery specific, just get rid of the percentages invovled in the transmit or keep choice. Science lab could then be used to transmit recovery only data. Since its a lab.

Yeah, lots of this. First there was not point in recovery, then no point in transmission. I agree that some science should be 100% transmitted and some cannot be transmitted at all.

Some experiments should have a combo status though. The sort where a transmission of the experiment would yield some data but recovery would yield all of it.

100% science test should include temperature, seismic detector, gravioli

return only science tests should be goo and materials

combo tests would be things like atmospheric analysis

Hopefully some middle ground will be found.

Even if the early tests are transmission and the later ones are recovery for gameplay reasons I'd accept something like that.

[Pthigrivi]

This was my contribution not too long ago. Im definitely down with transmission rates being re-jiggered, but I think the more fundamental problem is with the experiments themselves. The really need to require doing more than clicking a thing in a place, and should come with rewards that are directly useful in the game.

"

Mystery Goo Containment Unit – This could remain mostly unchanged and left early in the tech tree as an introduction to the concept of science and biomes. Activate it and if you’re in a new biome you receive a set science reward. Data is only 50% transmittable.

2HOT Thermometer – This is the next experiment to be unlocked and can be toggled on or off. While on, it collects and saves temperature data whenever it enters a new biome, (it stores whatever it collects indefinitely) but it consumes .1 e/s while activated. It does not collect data when outside of near-space of any body, but data is 75% transmittable. In addition to its science pay-out, re-entry and engine overheat would be visible in logged biomes.

PresMat Barometer – The third experiment to be unlocked, this essentially pays off based on how great a swath of an atmosphere it passes through while continually activated. Each atmospheric biome has a set load and the swath from the edge of the atmosphere to the surface represents %100 of it. An easy use will be running it during launch, but as the data is 90% transmittable its real benefit comes from drop-probes with batteries and an antenna. It draws .1 e/s while activated. Additionally, once an air column is observed, trajectories through it would accurately reflect drag if piloted by an adequately trained pilot (level 3 or so)

SC-9001 Science Jr – This will be in many ways the most important science module in the game. Instead of being functionally identical to the goo canister, the Materials Bay will have 5 slots to load materials either at launch or using a Science Lab operated by a level 3 scientist or higher. At the point of being unlocked there will be three KSC available materials – Distilled Water, Soil, and Nematodes, but others can be collected in the form of surface samples and atmospheric samples. Each surface or atmospheric sample yields 5 materials, and generally material values will correspond to how hard to reach they are. Once activated, the Materials bay will expose the samples it contains for 30 days, with each sample paying off based on its own multiplier as well as the multiplier of the biome it was exposed in. Once exposed those samples are dead and the Materials bay cannot be re-used unless reloaded by an adequately staffed Science Lab. This means that collecting and distributing samples becomes a real game mechanic, rather than just filing a checklist. The materials bay consumes no energy, but results can only be transmitted at 25%. This could be a great thing to run in orbital stations or bases. I would normally not be a fan of long-duration experiments, but I think the non-repeatability of it makes time-warping possible but not advantageous or broken in any way.

Sensor Array Computing Nose Cone – This experiment collects atmospheric samples, but must run at a roughly constant speed and altitude for 10 seconds to successfully collect a sample. It consumes .5 e/s while activated, shuts off automatically after 10 seconds, and can collect up to 10 samples. These samples, like surface samples, can be loaded into the Materials Bay for additional science payout. Results pay out only 25% on transmission.

GRAVMAX Negative Gravoli Detetector – This instrument like the 2HOT Thermometer is toggleable, but is now essentially the biome-mapping instrument. Best used in a polar orbit, it pays off based on how much surface area it maps. It could have a detection radius of 200km or so, be 90% transmittable, but consume .25 e/s while running for balance. Once recorded, the biomes would be a visible in map mode.

Double-C Seismic Accelerometer – This now becomes the impactor instrument. Placeable only by level 4 scientists, it burrows itself in the surface, detecting a range of 300km or so, and pays out based on the overlapping area between its sensor range and the impact area, which is determined by impactor inertia. In addition to large science payouts, this could detect the richness of resource deposits within range. (In this paradigm, the resource detector would tell you where resources are, but not how rich they are without a surface sample or impactor study.) The experiment requires no outside electricity, and its results are 90% transmittable.

"

Edited February 27, 2015 by Pthigrivi

[tater]

I assume the seismometer is placed, then a separate impactor is used? I see no reason to require a scientist (or even a kerbal) to place it.

In general, I think that having to wait to unlock science instruments is bizarre. Can land on another world… can't figure out a thermometer, but can figure out some more complex experiments. The whole set of instrumentation needs to be evaluated outside the box.

I think science transmission should be more based upon data sent (via coms) than just the experiment. Clearly sample return has little no no transmission value, but pictures depend on the data rate (lower data rate, fewer good pics sent, or more, crappy images sent).

Perhaps science communication can be done out of focus after a fashion? (hit send, do something else, revisit craft later and it dumps the transpired time worth of data). Have experiments generate science per unit data. So you can have stuff that makes huge amounts of data quantity, but low science per unit data. This requires bringing the experiment back to Kerbin (full science upon landing), or you can broadcast, but it might take years to dump the data.

I want to see:

Communications realism bump.

1. Complex satellite relays should not be required, but meaningful differences in antennas, and a simple LOS check (assume Kerbin-wide ground stations are available). This impacts probes, since they might need an orbiter relay if they are farside from Kerbin. Omnis from the start, high gains soon afterwards (maybe make a non-folding version very soon, then the folding a little later). Any connection could be stored, and rebroadcast later, though, no need for instantaneous relays I think.

Camera (these ideally would work like scansat or something, regardless all transmittable, but data rate should matter)

1. Wide field camera. Available from the start. Improved science gained by lowering orbit. Broad survey. Past the scansat type useful science, perhaps coverage of the planet could equal science gain (each % of surface imaged equals 1 science, weighted up or down based on altitude?)

2. Hi-res camera. Available from the start, or soon thereafter. More narrow field. Specific "visual observation" contract type instrument using current "contracts" as an example (even if I don't like the science contracts to be 3d party). Hi-res images make X science per % of the world imaged.

3. Transmission should be set such that the data rate of the antenna matters. You can scan the whole world, but if it takes a month to cover the whole planet and 100 years to transmit, not terribly useful. If you send an impactor with a camera (like Ranger) you need to have the coms capable of sending the images before it hits. Assign a size per pic to above cameras, and a data rate per antenna type.

Thermometer

Less science per use than now, particularly if geomes/regions are going to matter (temp on airless worlds depends on sunlight, period). Available from the start. Ideas above are OK, except on airless worlds where there should not be much variation. Also, importantly, the data is just a number, so 100% transmittable, but set science value per unit data generated so bit rate matters (this is low bit rate stuff, though).

Goo

Whatever. This should be a later experiment than the above few, not the first. Have it generate large amounts of data per unit science, so that the transmission rate matters a lot. Land it for full value, or transmit from orbit for a LONG time. Might have a transmit cap, too, unlike most remote sensing to force bringing it back.

Barometer

Again, a simple experiment that should be available right away. Parachutes that care about pressure, but no barometers? Really? Ideas above for generating science are good, science per unit data can be tweaked as needed. Data is numbers, 100% transmit.

Science Jr.

Some good ideas above, but again, switch to a science per unit data model, and have it generate huge volumes of data so that landing it makes sense as well as perhaps a cap requiring a lab or landing. This can be a later part.

Gravmax

Sets of accelerometers? I suppose a later part. Good ideas above. Data is numbers, so 100% transmittable, though (adjust via science per data and coms).

Seismometer

Good ideas above, but no reason it needs to be placed by a person that I can see. You could perhaps make a multiplier if placed by a scientist, and set the base science a little lower to encourage such placement. Data, again, is numbers, so 100% transmission, balanced via data rate.

EVA reports

Here is where skill matters. EVA reports should have science based upon the science skill of the astronaut generally. Note that the "Explore" contract could give substantial science for the first EVA report regardless of astronaut type. The first impressions of Jeb are scientifically useful, bit for later region/geome/biome hopping, you need a scientist or don't bother. If the current is 25 (40?) per region as an example, I'd say that is what a level 5 science kerbal gets, so 5(8) for a lvl 1 scientist, and perhaps 1 per level for non-scientists.

Sample Collection

1. Like the EVA report above. It is 120 right now, so that would be the best possible scientist, 24 science per level. 0% transmission*. Explore contract can make it so first collection gets a large amount of science, but further collection wants a scientist (adjust the amounts so that it's valuable for pilots/engineers, but much more with scientist.

2. Add a slightly later part that can collect samples for return (0% transmission) for probes.

3. Add a yet later part that collects and analyzes soils. 100% transmission but requires good coms, and the science is much less per collection than real sample return.

Edited February 27, 2015 by tater

[Moonfrog]

Do we have a science device that measures magnetic waves? does that exist? might be interesting part and space exploration wise might be useful.

[tater]

Magnetometer. It's more orbital science, but there is already too much science anyway… what USE an item should have in game should be what drives most "science" IMO. The whole science=tech thing is a problem because we run out of tech to buy so very quickly.

[Tw1]

Maxmaps specifically said that Science is one of the oldest systems in the game and will see a significant rework.

I really hope so. But doubt it will happen soon.

*Link to rant/suggestion about science I wrote so I don't need to write fresh rant each time*