NPC Spacecraft

[Mitchz95]

You know, I'm actually warming up to this. As you complete various milestones, NPC ships start to appear "repeating" certain tasks. For example, once you've perfected station building and LKO, some NPC space stations and orbital ships might begin to spawn in various orbits. Make enough Duna missions, and soon other ships may be glimpsed in that general area. Plant a colony on Laythe, and some expeditions to visit or even colonize the moon might occur.

But we still have to be the first to achieve each milestone.

[GreeningGalaxy]

You know, I'm actually warming up to this. As you complete various milestones, NPC ships start to appear "repeating" certain tasks. For example, once you've perfected station building and LKO, some NPC space stations and orbital ships might begin to spawn in various orbits. Make enough Duna missions, and soon other ships may be glimpsed in that general area. Plant a colony on Laythe, and some expeditions to visit or even colonize the moon might occur.

But we still have to be the first to achieve each milestone.

I'm seeing two main camps here: People who don't like the idea of not being the first on [insert destination here], and people who like how very kerbal space races are. The solution is simple: to the difficulty options!

There could be several settings:

0- No NPCs. The solar system is empty except for you.

1- Derelicts only. Spent stages, decrepit hulks with a few drops of fuel ripe for the taking, but no active craft besides yours.

2- Monkey-see/monkey-do. You'll always be the first to any given location, but the NPCs will follow in your footsteps.

3- Slow and steady NPCs. Beating them to places won't be hard, but they'll get there first if you let them.

4- Full-on space race. Maybe the game will calculate something like funds and other resources for the NPCs, and they'll be hot on your tail and possibly likely to beat you places if you delay getting off the ground. This could open the door to amusing little things like the Chinese spacecraft in 2010, which burned all of its fuel in its transfer burn to beat the already-departed Russians to Jupiter, relying on aerocapture on arrival and ISRU for the return flight.

In addition to the 5 main activity settings, there could be a slider for max total NPC flights (similar to the Max Persistent Debris slider), and possibly one for NPC spawn rate and customizable craft type distribution (i.e. setting it to spawn more debris and less active flights).

I'm sure developing this would be far too big an undertaking for the imminent 1.0 release, but I'd love to see it in any degree in one of the subsequent post-1.0 versions.

[NoMrBond]

Is it just me or did Maxmaps essentially introduce this on the Squadcast a couple of days ago?

Rescue Kerbals will be found in all sorts of places, not just in low Kerbin orbit, and will be found with their ships and/or at least capsules?

[GreeningGalaxy]

Is it just me or did Maxmaps essentially introduce this on the Squadcast a couple of days ago?

Rescue Kerbals will be found in all sorts of places, not just in low Kerbin orbit, and will be found with their ships and/or at least capsules?

The feature he introduced looks more like you're going to find single rocket parts, or at least small bits of craft, with stranded kerbals. It'll pave the way to something like what I suggested here, but it's not really the same, since it only appears for contracts and the kinds of things which will show up are very limited.

[tater]

It's also still just rescue a kerbal. I want missions to repair their ship, dock and return to LKO, or refuel it. Something more interesting.

[Kegereneku]

GreeningGalaxy, the way you tried mocking my post tell me you didn't really get its purpose. You seem to treat it as a "rebuttal trying to prove it can't happen" when I merely attempted to summarize the whole deal about NPC ship to work TOWARD IT better.

People who like you answer everything point by point without considering the rhetoric in its ensemble will inevitably get in conflict with each other. To take one example you do not seem to care about having another launch facility, I know someone who would spam the whole planet with them. Your original suggestion was for only NPC ship to appear along contract (which is quite reasonable and I imagine it possible), but many other are already discussing a full fledged space race.

Even if Unity is great with object-oriented programming, conciliating several idea at once without reworking entirely the code would ask the devs to consider everything before starting the work.

Therefore we certainly can't have 50% my list even if people agreed on a solution (ISRU alone took dozen of thread and an aborted feature). This is what my "if you answered yes..." meant to point out...albeit more aggressively than I though.

You might bow sarcastically to my equally sarcastic remark, but I certainly don't bow to you for making a constructive answer out of it.

But let's not fall furthermore in a spiral of passive aggressivity. I've said all I though worth on the subject and just wanted to make sure the original poster didn't get a wrong idea.

[GreeningGalaxy]

GreeningGalaxy, the way you tried mocking my post tell me you didn't really get its purpose. You seem to treat it as a "rebuttal trying to prove it can't happen" when I merely attempted to summarize the whole deal about NPC ship to work TOWARD IT better.

People who like you answer everything point by point without considering the rhetoric in its ensemble will inevitably get in conflict with each other. To take one example you do not seem to care about having another launch facility, I know someone who would spam the whole planet with them. Your original suggestion was for only NPC ship to appear along contract (which is quite reasonable and I imagine it possible), but many other are already discussing a full fledged space race.

Even if Unity is great with object-oriented programming, conciliating several idea at once without reworking entirely the code would ask the devs to consider everything before starting the work.

Therefore we certainly can't have 50% my list even if people agreed on a solution (ISRU alone took dozen of thread and an aborted feature). This is what my "if you answered yes..." meant to point out...albeit more aggressively than I though.

You might bow sarcastically to my equally sarcastic remark, but I certainly don't bow to you for making a constructive answer out of it.

But let's not fall furthermore in a spiral of passive aggressivity. I've said all I though worth on the subject and just wanted to make sure the original poster didn't get a wrong idea.

I was trying to treat your original post not so much as a "rebuttal that it can't happen" as a "crash-test to help find flaws and solidify the details more." Yes, I did respond rather snarkily to some parts that seemed unnecessarily contentious, but the whole 'pick apart detail by detail' bit helps a lot to figure out what would work the best.

I think you're still making a lot of assumptions on what's possible, but I agree that, given the developers' limited time and funds, it's improbable that we'll see everything mentioned in this thread. Everything in here is highly speculative, just like all suggestion threads.

[Starwhip]

Finding wrecks on other bodies would be fun. You could salvage fuel from them if needed.

It does kind of take away from the overall feel of KSP, though. More suitable as a mod.

[jake9039]

I actualy think this would be cool. and the docking part would be funny. one thing that might annoy people though is how they have a 0 debris policy, but it still would be cool

[Vanamonde]

As always, please don't make the discussion personal, folks.

[SyberSmoke]

I was just today thinking about this same idea and decided to do a search. Any way march is not that long ago.

I like the idea of a living world. It seems a little odd that KSC is the only launch site around just as it is odd there are no cities around. But that is another mod/discussion all together. I personally would love to see other ships and Kerbals out there doing things.

For the points of not seeing the launches...what about a different look. It was stated that a notice could appear that a new ship has been launched. But what about having that launch "Televised". So you get the notice, you click to look at it, and you view the ships launch through a televised event (your not obligated to watch) from another launch site. A Kerbal commentator, a count down, and the launch with the rocket taking off (kind of on rails).

Now here is where things could be fun. Say the player had a particularly ornery design that blew up a few times. This could be included, the game could remember/calculate launch success from those failures. Then when you view the launch the game could do a RNG roll and determine if the launch goes well or if your treated to a nice explosion with parts going everywhere. That could also be the way to get Kerbals stuck in orbit as may be they had the fuel to get up there after but nothing left to get down.

I am for the idea...and I hope you enjoy the addition.

[p1t1o]

I think that this would be quite difficult to do well and could be hard on CPU/Memory, but if it could be pulled off, yes I'd love to see other craft skitting about the system!

Preferably would include tweakable options, such as max. number of active NPC vessels etc. etc....

[Stoney3K]

I say no. Npc ships in orbit with you is a waste of ram that be better used elsewhere in the game. If they are added, they had better come with the option to disable,their spawning.

Then just make an option in the config screen that reads "AI Traffic" with the option to turn it off (and forfeit any missions that use it).

Other simulation games have done it as well with success, I'm thinking either Flight Simulator (which simulates traffic just for decorative purposes) and Transport Tycoon which has you playing against an AI-generated competitor. The entire "televised launch" where you can see a cut scene of your competitor launching its contract entry fits in nicely here -- Transport Tycoon does a similar thing with a news message that is popped up and which you can view, without having to actually *simulate* it in real time.

Contracts can be a lot more challenging if there's a competing agency on your tail to "get there first". Even if that agency has no actual ships you can see or find.

Agreeing with SyberSmoke here, I've always found Kerbin to be very empty and lifeless. There's just the KSC and nothing else, even if it is supposed to be a world where Kerbals live. If they do, where do they even live? Underground?

Edited September 23, 2015 by Stoney3K

[Farex]

I am with the NO fraction here. I don't think it would be a good implemantion. Where would these NPCs come from? For this to work, there would have to be a lot more KSCs on Kerbin. No no no no.

[322997am]

I think there should be another space program that you could steal fuel from.

[SyberSmoke]

I am with the NO fraction here. I don't think it would be a good implemantion. Where would these NPCs come from? For this to work, there would have to be a lot more KSCs on Kerbin. No no no no.

I would like to point out that if you look at reality, there are many different launch sites owned by different nations/political bodies. Europe has their own launch facility, Russia has a couple, and even in North America another launch facility is being built by SpaceX in Texas I believe (I may be wrong). There is plenty of room on Kerbin for additional launch sites...actually there was/is a mod that adds additional launch sites even.

As for implementation...I do not believe that it would be necessary for this to be very processor intense. Mostly the ships would just be blips on the map with no physics simulation. Their maneuvers would be calculated and be some what instant depending on how fast we are messing with time.

[Capt Snuggler]

I think this sounds awesome, but not for stock KSP. When I was new I got a lot of enjoyment imagining myself being the first space agency to get to anywhere beyond Kerbin; getting a mission to Duna only to find another ship already there would ruin that immersion.

This would work much better as a mod.

the NPC achievements could be derived from the players, so they are never too far ahead of you. if done right, the enjoyment would only be enhanced by having an rival NPC and would add narrative.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[sam.johnson841]

SO much love for this idea. Thumbs up.

- Sam

[jmp470]

I like the idea, as I role play that I'm competing against others. My design philosophy is different than my competitions and they always need people rescued in space. I've noticed that the Kerbals I rescue use similar tech as I do, but, are not up to my companies standards. Thus, I get paid to rescue them

[Whirligig Girl]

I love this idea.

Perhaps it is not just one space agency competing. Just like different companies give different contracts and rewards, different space agencies may act differently.

The way I see it is this: two settings in the game settings. Allows you to set the amount of other space agencies, and set their game mode from Easy, Normal, Intermediate, Hard, and whatever your Custom mode is. The other space agencies will pick a random flag from a flaglist.cfg of safe-to-use flags (not used by another space program or by manufacturers, and not any player-made flag that is not added to the list.) They will also create a name in a similar manner to Kerbal astronauts.

Space agencies may have one of a few different archetypes:

-Aggressive, where they will fight back if at all possible if you fire upon them. They are not afraid to rendezvous with your ships, dock to them, and even steal fuel if your reputation is low. They try their darndest to be the first at everything, even if they lose Kerbals in the process. They have a higher chance than other agencies of something failing and losing life during launches and landings. Their ships are overbuilt, and while they technically have a margin for error, they use up their margin while doing things inefficiently.

-Peaceful, where they will invariably run away, and will not try to approach unless you have a high reputation. Their program almost never does "firsts" and tends to wait until someone else has done something. They may still beat you though, if not another agency. They will never fight back, and will always run away if they see you coming. If you keep harming them, they will try to bribe you out of harming them. This loses reputation very quickly. Their ships have a small margin for error, because they can never be too careful.

-Scientific, where they will rendezvous with your ship to check it out. They try to be the first, but they don't want to risk life doing it. They will often use probes more than kerbaled vessels. They're not afraid to fight back, but they may also bribe you to stop shooting their ships. Their ships tend not to have much margin for error, because they fly as efficiently as possible.

-Commercial, who do not try to be first at anything, just try to do what others have already done better and cheaper. In fact, they are NEVER first at something. They always wait do something after at least two agencies have already done it. Their NPC ships tend to ignore yours, they have business to attend to. They can often be seen in well built ships holding passenger cans full of tourists. They also tend to reuse as much equipment as possible.

-Religious agencies are extremely rare occurrences, but when they do form they tend to flip-flop between aggressive and passive behaviors, depending on the particular brand of the religion that the commander of the vessel believes in. These kerbals are flying in space for religious reasons, because after all space is the heaven(s). They worship the almighty Deep Space Kraken, and the only thing they want to be first to is the Bop landing.

The player can not choose which agencies form and when they do, just the final number. They can set it to something absurdly high if they wanted to so that after a couple of in-game years, the entire solar system is populated with various space programs competing with each other. If there is a system in place for emulating the interactions between the nonplayer space agencies, it may be fun just to sit and watch on a high timewarp as the news app describes each skirmish and retreat and failure, while all your space program does is fool around with firework rockets behind the astronaut complex.

The default space agency number for Easy Mode is 0, Normal Mode is 1, for Intermediate mode it is 2, and for Hard Mode it is 4. It can be set as high as 100 in the custom settings menu.

The launch sites for the various space agencies are all around the equator, with a few at higher latitudes. There might be one on the western side of the KSC continent, one in the desert, the badlands, the tundra, etc. There may even be a space program within visual range of another space program. This may lead to bad relations if they are both aggressive.

If you bomb another space program's buildings, and that space program is either aggressive or scientific, they will return the favor with missiles. So don't do that. If you bomb a peaceful agency's buildings, your reputation drops like a rock. If you bomb a Commercial agency's buildings, they will fine you for the repairs. This is a mandatory fee that may make you bankrupt. Other agencies will never bomb you without provocation. They might bomb you if you attack their ships.

You can compete with agencies in any game mode, including science and sandbox.

Each company archetype has a preset list of their own hidden stock spacecraft. You could place crafts directly into their craft lists, and they would be able to use that ship. The game calculates delta-vee and twr, but does not calculate structure, so if you put a thin spindly rocket that should bend over into a U-shape, but has enough thrust and delta-v to orbit, you will in fact find that the ship has reached orbit intact. By neccessity, stock craft in these folders must be sturdy so that it doesn't seem insane that these ships might be found orbiting Jool. The stock craft will have had to be tested just like any part or feature to make sure they make sense. Recommend any modders who want to add crafts would do the same.

Edited September 24, 2015 by GregroxMun

[Darnok]

NPC space program should have secret base in place where nobody would be looking for them... on Dres

Also would be nice to have media building where you could watch NPC achievements like:

- landing on Mun or other planets

- first 100t payload rocket start

etc etc

Redirecting asteroids (in some war/aggressive mode you and NPC agency could drop asteroids on each other bases )

In carrier mode you could just resupply NPC space station, it could be more fun to do that on station you didn't build.

You could trade craft designs with NPCs and even hire them to do mission for you, while you are observing, good option for beginners.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Darnok

[GreeningGalaxy]

The negative responses frequently mention not wanting to have more space centers on Kerbin.

What GregroxMun was talking about up there with the archetypes and things sounds very cool, but that's also the sort of mechanic that games like Spore were almost built around - it might end up being a little out of scope. I'm not opposed to asking for it (quite the opposite) but I also think that NPC spacecraft would be fun even in a very simple implementation, and that this might be somewhat instrumental in the idea's marketability - new space centers are a lot of work and likely to get waved away, but something which just extends parts of the game that are already there might be a lot more surmountable. At least on paper.

I propose the following categorization:

Must-Haves - central mechanics to NPC spacecraft that would be necessary for the concept to work at all.

-Spawning (the ships have to appear out there somehow)

-Randomized flight paths (a bit of sense governing what orbits you'll find the NPCs in)

-Randomized vessel state (changed levels of fuel, crew, and possibly damage to give the impression that the ship is doing something)

-Motion (need not be fancy, but a manned spaceplane orbiting the Mun that you saw on your way out to Jool should not be there when you come back)

-Stock ships as NPCs (if player-built ships don't become NPCs, adding special metadata to the stock ships governing where they can appear and how they can behave may make things easier)

-Disable option (option to turn off NPCs for players who don't want them)

Ideal Bonuses - not absolutely necessary to have for the NPC idea to work, but would be excellent if they could be done.

-Real-time motion (ships move when you are present in some capacity - active crewed ships make a focused effort to prevent you from docking and stealing their fuel)

-Stations (NPCs make surface bases and orbital stations, to a very limited degree of complexity)

-Reputation (your interaction with NPCs affects how others see you)

-Contracts (contracts appear in career mode which involve NPCs, extending off of rescues - towing, refueling, salvage, add module to station, etc.)

-Intelligent spawning (delta-v is calculated for NPC ships and spawn locations/fuel levels reflect their actual range to some degree)

-Other launch sites (these could look exactly the same as the KSC, or could have relatively cheap models - anything at all that looks like a launchpad will offer lots of immersion)

-NPC-specific stock ships (special stock ships that only appear as NPCs)

Stretch Goals - things to add if this idea really takes off and needs more fleshing out as a more central mechanic.

-Corporate affiliation (NPCs each belong to a particular company)

-Real-time missions (You can watch NPCs vessels launch, execute maneuver burns, land, and even crewmembers go on EVA on planetary surfaces)

-Adaptive behavior (Where NPCs go depends on what you've been doing)

-Archetypes (NPC corporations have different styles of behavior, as GregroxMun described)

-Fancy collaborative contracts (i.e. launching someone else's payload with your own launch vehicle, which then flies away as soon as it's delivered)

-Procedurally-generated vessels (in some capacity, NPC ships with new designs every time)

-Radar (Other ships might be hard to spot at long range if you don't actively look for them)

-Interactions with other corporations (other than with their ships; making agreements and such)

Unnecessary - spinoff ideas of NPC spacecraft that probably would not fit with the rest of the game. (most of these are in What Not To Suggest anyway)

-Weapons (of any kind)

-Combat-knowledgeable AI (I don't like the sound of trying to write that

-Combat contracts (even debris-clearing - leave it to the modders)

-Anything involving combat - When NPCs are your rivals, you'll be trying to beat them to places, not blow them up, and they'll extend the same courtesy to you. Just like real life!

-Aliens

-Complex EVA interactions/talking (as cool as it would be, it's probably out of scope)

-Fleet operations (seems like this would be pointless for anything besides combat)

I'd be happy if even just the 'Must-Haves' category showed up in the game and nothing more - this doesn't need to be a big feature to be a good one in my opinion. This is just an organization of ideas seen thus far by how important I see them. Let me know if you disagree with any of my classifications.