Are jools moons realistic?

[Dire_Squid]

I like Laythe the way it is... It's like Europa, but in "beach" form.

Tylo... I never explored (I may need to clear out my add-ons before 1.0 happens... I'm gonna miss my Duna Station, and my beginnings of my Minmus Base)... but I once DID dream of a Kerbal exploring a semi-volcanic moon. "Atmosphere" was orange red, as was the lava.

[NathanKell]

regex, to be fair egg did run the sim (accounting for barycentre) and it was fine. Indeed, accounting for orbit around the barycentre is (AFAIK) part of the point of n-body.

Doesn't account for the whole host of other weirdnesses, of course.

[regex]

regex, to be fair egg did run the sim (accounting for barycentre) and it was fine. Indeed, accounting for orbit around the barycentre is (AFAIK) part of the point of n-body.

Doesn't account for the whole host of other weirdnesses, of course.

When did he do that? That would have been great to see. Also would have liked to see the sim run on Kerbin with realistic densities...

[Renegrade]

I don't accept that for proof that the Kerbin system is stable because it requires that you correct the system variables as they stand. I'm not talking about Corrected Kerbin System, I'm talking about Kerbin System. Hell, if we're correcting for barycenters we should also be correcting for everything else that is wrong with the system.

He was addressing the simulation shown in the video. You'll note that the simulation doesn't appear to be honoring that - Jool should be moving somewhat, or, if the camera is fixed to Jool's origin, then the other moons should oscillate as Tylo and Laythe pull the barycenter about. So, I'd have to say my faith in that video is kinda low, leaving us with no proof of instability.

(I'm not saying they are stable, just that there's a lack of solid proof that they aren't)

Anyhow, again I stress that would be a minor point compared to the raging insanity of a body 72GM from it's parent star getting 50% of the light of a body 13.6GM from it's parent star~

[regex]

Anyhow, again I stress that would be a minor point compared to the raging insanity of a body 72GM from it's parent star getting 50% of the light of a body 13.6GM from it's parent star~

Well, and the raging insanity of a whole lot of other things in the game, at least insofar as realism is concerned.

[Landge]

The only thing I'd want Laythe to have would be active volcanos.

[Renegrade]

Well, and the raging insanity of a whole lot of other things in the game, at least insofar as realism is concerned.

Agreed.

The inverse square issue though really annoys me, as by having that fake falloff "curve", not only are we encouraging #lolfake, but also cutting out an interesting gameplay and design mechanic of RTGs becoming meaningful out in Dres-Jool-Eeloo ranges.. Plus, the inverse-square math would be a lot faster than stepping through that curve (I sincerely doubt it exists as a linear lookup table in memory), and would let me drop my current research into that obnoxious curve thing.. but this is all rather offtopic for a Joolian-moon thread, so I'll leave it at that.

[helaeon]

My view is that each body in the game was meant to represent a certain space flight challenge, or quirk, that was there for the player to overcome. The real world is a guide and source for ideas but does not have the final say. Each world in my opinion fills a certain niche. So future planetary bodies I think would follow that guide of a specific challenge or quirk that the player needs to deal with or to give an idea how a certain science mission might go.

So, an Io like body debris in orbit might be an issue from the vulcanism, and finding a safe landing site might be part of the challenge. A Europa or Encelaedus analog would have us drilling through the crust and exploring the ocean below!

If other star-systems or alternate systems are added we may find the Kerbals needing to deal with a gas giant very close to their star, or planets that are 4 or 5 times the size of Kerbin (super-earths) and the scaling up of that being like what we think the super-earth difference would be like for us.

Maybe we could have a body with an atmosphere that is ignitable or somehow incompatible with our regular rocket engines, so you need a special engine that has certain limitations. Maybe even a world with very, very strong winds due to differential heating.

I think one reason people don't like Dres and find it boring is once you can get to Duna and Moho, there's no more skills being tested there or further things you have to think about when planning the mission. Though I think that scar landing is pretty cool.

So no, I don't think Laythe should be changed I think another gas giant, with other moons with challenges and their own uniqueness should be added however.

[Flixxbeatz]

They're not realistic, because it was never meant to be.

[daniel l.]

They're unrealistic, yes, but what we have now is perfectly fine! Honestly, a red laythe with green oceans sounds like the worst color palette imaginable, no offense. Plus, I think Tylo provides enough challenge to land on.

As others have pointed out, it is important KSP is a game, not a simulator.

Lay the being where it is could not be in any way habitable, combined with the radiathian from jool and the likely lack of life it could not have a blue Sky's and oceans, besides red and green are the color of Santa klause

As for tylo I agree that we need a high gravity and no atmosphere moon, but tylo is a poor example being that its terrain is terribly dull.

Sorry for any typos I am writing this from my tablet.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Many things in KSP are unrealistic.

Kerbin is smaller than our Moon but still has the same gravity, Jool is almost as big as earth

Kerbol shows all kinds of weird characteristics.

From the Wiki

Real-world comparison

While otherwise analogous to our own real-life Sun, Kerbol has 1/113th the mass and a 1/3rd its radius. Kerbol's other attributes can be used to derive the following statistics: it has a luminosity of approximately 4.5 Yotta-watts (0.012 Solar luminosities) based on the temperatures of planets Eve, Kerbin, and Duna; a surface temperature of approximately 3100 K based on its size and luminosityâ€â€the temperature of a Class M main-sequence star; the radius of a red dwarf; and the mass of a sub-brown dwarf. In reality, such a star cannot exist, as the minimum mass of a star is approximately 75 times the mass of Jupiter, a full power-of-ten greater than that of Kerbol. However, many astrophysical properties in KSP are effectively scaled down for gameplay.

But! all this is not a bad thing for the game.

Edited March 28, 2015 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[_Augustus_]

Laythe should have a red sky. End of story.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Laythe should have a red sky. End of story.

Nope

[Wjolcz]

Laythe should have a red sky. End of story.

Nope [2]

Would look weird

[NathanKell]

regex, I think it was in the Alternis Kerbol thread, but I don't recall exactly. He's talked about it on #RO though, so just ask him next time you and he are on.

[lajoswinkler]

They should stay where they are, but if the colors of Laythe were to change slightly I wouldn't mind. Maybe atmo color to something between blue and green? Though I like it the way it is. When you're there it kind of reminds you of Kerbin. Just less green.

E:

http://someinterestingfacts.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Facts-about-Titan-the-Moon.jpg

Something like Titan, but without the brown layer. Though I think its false coloured anyway.

That is a false colored near infrared photo.

This is how Titan looks like in visible spectrum.

I'd leave the Joolean system as it is, and introduce new worlds for the new gas giant. For example, Outer Planets Mod did an amazing job with it.

[boxman]

Take laythe for example, The early earths oceans were green from iron and the sky was red from CO2, All this is because there was no photosynthesizing life to make oxygen which would have rusted away the iron in the oceans and displaced the CO2 with oxygen, But since laythe apparently has no life why does it have blue skys and oceans? oxygen is a reactive gas even if a body formed with it as an atmosphere it would still be absorbed by the rocks, If laythe is lifeless it has to have Red skys and Green oceans.

Does not matter since it is completly unrealistic that it has liquid water on the surface when it is that far from the sun. The only way for water to exist that far out in solar system is when it is hidden beneath a layer of insulating ice like for example Europa.

And we have the opposite issue with minimus.. It has been said that it has ice, but yet that close to sun that would simply not be possible if it lacks an atmopshere. The surface temperatures would be very high in the sunlit regions and the ice would just sublime and espace into space in no time.

So there are plenty of things that are not realistic in this game when it comes to planets/moons.

[Sanguine]

Tidal heating, boxman. Tidal Heating.

[Rath]

I think lay the actually has microscopic organisms living around hydrothermal vents .

- - - Updated - - -

Are you suggesting that Kerbals are less capable because they were created with green skin, large heads and four fingers? That's kinda racist.

I think that that would actually be xenoism because they are aliens

[Bill Phil]

Does not matter since it is completly unrealistic that it has liquid water on the surface when it is that far from the sun. The only way for water to exist that far out in solar system is when it is hidden beneath a layer of insulating ice like for example Europa.

And we have the opposite issue with minimus.. It has been said that it has ice, but yet that close to sun that would simply not be possible if it lacks an atmopshere. The surface temperatures would be very high in the sunlit regions and the ice would just sublime and espace into space in no time.

So there are plenty of things that are not realistic in this game when it comes to planets/moons.

Not 100% true...

Certain mixtures of water and other materials can allow water to be liquid further out. Salt can do this to a small extent. Perhaps others can as well.

Plus, the energy from Kerbol doesn't scale realistically... Perhaps that makes water closer to the liquid state in the System?

[sdj64]

Everyone talking about Laythe having a red sky because without life, it would have no oxygen, is overlooking the point that in game it does have oxygen. You can't just ignore some in-game facts and pick and choose others. Laythe's oceans are clearly different than Kerbin's, being much more opaque. They are probably not water, or maybe a mix of water and some other compounds, which allows them to stay liquid at lower temperatures. Laythe's polar caps could be water ice that has separated out of the solution.

Most people are taking a rather narrow-minded view of "realism" that only takes into account our solar system. However discoveries of exoplanets have found that our solar system is in fact the exception, not the norm. Many things could exist that we can't imagine now. Though the Jool system's formation does seem a bit implausible.

In my opinion, both Laythe and Tylo present unique gameplay opportunities (Kerbin-like place away from Kerbin and high gravity non-atmospheric moon respectively) and should stay as-is. To most KSP players, they are well within the realm of plausibility. To those of you that can't stand it, there are mods such as RSS.

[Owen5595]

Tylo needs to be redone to make it more interesting.

[Brotoro]

Laythe is Laythe. Laythe is not Io. Laythe is not Europa. Laythe does not orbit Jupiter...it orbits a Venus size/mass object named Jool which is certainly not Jupiter.

Laythe has a thick atmosphere with a sizable fraction of oxygen in it (otherwise my jet airplanes wouldn't work as they do). This points to Laythe having photosynthetic life in its oceans.

Laythe's sky should therefore be blue as shown in the game.

[Miro Beero]

So you have no issue with green aliens with giant heads and 4 fingers having a space program being unrealistic, but the moons is where you draw the line? lol

Thumbs up, +1