[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[billkerbinsky]

Guess we'll see, I'm genuinely scared though. Fiddled with Transfer Window Planner and it's showing a 22-year minimum voyage for one of the outer planets.

So you can always take a faster-than-hohmann transfer, but be sure to pack enough canned delta-V so you can stop when you get there. Get far enough into the tech tree with Near Future Propulsion or more speculative mods and you can build craft with >100km/s deltaV ...

Regarding the living space vs. happiness tradeoff: ironically the one well documented case of a mutiny/strike in space occurred about six weeks into the final Skylab mission, when the crew took an unscheduled day off and ignored ground controllers.

Skylab had nearly as much habitable volume as the ISS (sources vary, but I see both 320m^3 and 360m^3 for skylab, vs about 425 m^3 habitable volume for the ISS), but only three crew members. One factor may have been lack of experience in the crew - it was the first space flight for all three of them. Maybe have zero-star kerbonauts flip out sooner?

[Rybec]

I like the idea of experience effecting habitation duration, and I think it ties in well with the concept of orange-suit immunity.

Maybe an option to make the badass flag also grant immunity would make sense?

On the other hand, that could also make things rather more complex and harder to plan for, which is the opposite of why I use USILS over the other options...

[Businfu]

Per Rover's comments on DeepFreeze:

Then you better plan on building ark ships.

...

Correct, because being dead won't help with this as it's not a resource consumption issue

Gotta say, I'm rather excited for the prospect that freezing kerbals might get them out of the need to eat and poop, but it wont do a lick for helping them stay sane... certainly adds a twist. I was thinking about having to add 1 time penalties on waking or something like that, but just having the timer keep ticking would do the trick quite nicely.

[RoverDude]

You have an independent flag for orange immunity of hab effects.

I'm not keen on having experience affect the duration, just because that makes the system very unpredictable.

[Starwaster]

Skylab had nearly as much habitable volume as the ISS (sources vary, but I see both 320m^3 and 360m^3 for skylab, vs about 425 m^3 habitable volume for the ISS), but only three crew members. One factor may have been lack of experience in the crew - it was the first space flight for all three of them. Maybe have zero-star kerbonauts flip out sooner?

Even 320 m3 sounds way a little too generous for Skylab. They were living in what was a converted Saturn S-IVB hydrogen fuel tank. Those carried ~250kl of H2 but the tank's internal volume would be closer to 300, and not all of that would have been habitable.

I think they were probably counting the airlock too. (I'd hope they weren't counting what would have been the O2 tank which was used for garbage disposal!)

Edited September 9, 2015 by Starwaster

[billkerbinsky]

Even 320 m3 sounds way a little too generous for Skylab. They were living in what was a converted Saturn S-IVB hydrogen fuel tank. Those carried ~250kl of H2 but the tank's internal volume would be closer to 300, and not all of that would have been habitable.

I think they were probably counting the airlock too. (I'd hope they weren't counting what would have been the O2 tank which was used for garbage disposal!)

Here's a source which shows individual Skylab component volumes:

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4208/cont2.htm

Airlock and docking adapter together get you from ~270 in the main workshop to ~320 not counting the apollo capsule. This source has a working volume of ~10m^3 for the apollo command module which is somewhat larger than what other sources say.

[goldenpsp]

Minor nitpick. Maybe this thread could lose the alpha title? This mod is more stable than some that have been out 3x as long.

[Vorg]

A problem with this home thing, with a space fairing race that is building orbital colonies and colonies on other planets, you have people born in space. The ship, station or colony is their home.

There is now a mission being planed that is a one way trip to mars. No plans to bring them back.

[gary.townsend]

and vorg i think you'll find that they will run into issues too. Besides Rover isn't finished with this yet i imagine there will be "multiplier" parts like pinball machines or maybe even a Quark's Bar, or Holosuites to extend the home sickness time. as for baby kerbals, there aren't any don't they just multiple like plants

[rabidninjawombat]

A problem with this home thing, with a space fairing race that is building orbital colonies and colonies on other planets, you have people born in space. The ship, station or colony is their home.

There is now a mission being planed that is a one way trip to mars. No plans to bring them back.

Rover has said the that hab effects will be a toggleable option in the settings, so you'll be able to turn it off it you dont want it.

[tater]

You have an independent flag for orange immunity of hab effects.

I'm not keen on having experience affect the duration, just because that makes the system very unpredictable.

You could make experience affect the effects of exceeding duration. I know the mechanism is making them a "tourist," but perhaps experience might allow some activity, to periods of regular (not tourist) status for a period. If the periods of... lucidity ( ) were unpredictable, then it's clearly nothing to count on for normal operations, but might allow you to check them periodically, and maybe be able to EVA.

Seems like it should be a more generalized morale effect, though (I'm assuming the tourist status), and not a complete break down (tourist). Would it be possible to have the effect be to reduce the skill level?

Say skill 3 guys becomes skill 2 after the timer expires, and the skill 0 guys become tourists? So you'd not want to plan to do this, as they are less effective, but as long as they had LS, at least they could do something.

[RoverDude]

A problem with this home thing, with a space fairing race that is building orbital colonies and colonies on other planets, you have people born in space. The ship, station or colony is their home.

There is now a mission being planed that is a one way trip to mars. No plans to bring them back.

..and if your hab is an orbital colony type thingie (i.e. the larger MKS ones) then this rating is effectively as long as a KSP save. But even if you're born in space, you are not going to be too keen to be shoved in a tin can capsule for twenty years.

and vorg i think you'll find that they will run into issues too. Besides Rover isn't finished with this yet i imagine there will be "multiplier" parts like pinball machines or maybe even a Quark's Bar, or Holosuites to extend the home sickness time. as for baby kerbals, there aren't any don't they just multiple like plants

erm... no Likely more boring, mundane things like nicer hab modules.

You could make experience affect the effects of exceeding duration. I know the mechanism is making them a "tourist," but perhaps experience might allow some activity, to periods of regular (not tourist) status for a period. If the periods of... lucidity ( ) were unpredictable, then it's clearly nothing to count on for normal operations, but might allow you to check them periodically, and maybe be able to EVA.

Seems like it should be a more generalized morale effect, though (I'm assuming the tourist status), and not a complete break down (tourist). Would it be possible to have the effect be to reduce the skill level?

Say skill 3 guys becomes skill 2 after the timer expires, and the skill 0 guys become tourists? So you'd not want to plan to do this, as they are less effective, but as long as they had LS, at least they could do something.

I just don't see how being a better or worse scientist would affect how nutty you go. I'd much rather keep the selections fairly simple and predictable, with the only distinction being an alternate effect for vets.

[tater]

Yeah, I forgot scientists... Engineers and pilots have more use in general for accomplishing missions mechanically. Scientists being scientists doesn't really matter that mush on a base or station after X period of time, though, they will have done everything they can do anyway.

How about this:

Timer on habitation livability expires, and skill drops by 1. After this, every KM/X (dunno what X should be) the skill drops again. When skill = 0, then they are tourists.

I get the idea (I'm all for it!), but I think that habitability should decrease their capability, but not potentially kill them (note that I play with CausesDeath = true) since they cannot do anything once tourists, even EVA to collect supplies from an unmanned lander. Would landing/docking a new habitable part instantly give them crew status for a period?

BTW, you said the facilities need not be connected, what range is considered connected for this purpose?

Also, what are the ballpark figures for hab space in KMs?

[RoverDude]

Yeah, I forgot scientists... Engineers and pilots have more use in general for accomplishing missions mechanically. Scientists being scientists doesn't really matter that mush on a base or station after X period of time, though, they will have done everything they can do anyway.

How about this:

Timer on habitation livability expires, and skill drops by 1. After this, every KM/X (dunno what X should be) the skill drops again. When skill = 0, then they are tourists.

I get the idea (I'm all for it!), but I think that habitability should decrease their capability, but not potentially kill them (note that I play with CausesDeath = true) since they cannot do anything once tourists, even EVA to collect supplies from an unmanned lander. Would landing/docking a new habitable part instantly give them crew status for a period?

BTW, you said the facilities need not be connected, what range is considered connected for this purpose?

Also, what are the ballpark figures for hab space in KMs?

Since the penalty for a lack of food is completely and separately configurable for the penalty for being stuffed in a can, I'm going to pass on adding additional detail other than the current penalty list - simple is good.

Range is also configurable, default is 100m.

Docking a new hab would in fact bump up the habspace values (or even landing a new hab nearby). Remember, two values - the best they have ever seen, and their current situation.

Stats are not yet finalized, but in general it will go from nothing (zero days) to something approaching the five year mark, to something approaching the 100 year mark (and that is about as long as you can go in a KSP save). Granted, that's for MKS - there will be relatively few parts that come along with USI-LS, mostly I'll just MM-up the stock crewed pieces

[monstah]

erm... no Likely more boring, mundane things like nicer hab modules.

Which reminds me, ever played this mod? Have the descriptions of upgrades include things such as "pinball machines", "Quark's bar" and "tolerable temperature control", and volià!

Even without such silliness, it's a really cool mod that should be used more.

I get the idea (I'm all for it!), but I think that habitability should decrease their capability, but not potentially kill them (note that I play with CausesDeath = true)

Well, he never said Kerbals would die from 'homesickness', only that 'bad things would happen' Since it's two parallel mechanics, food and shelter, I'd suppose even with CausesDeath turned on, they'd die from hunger, but only mutiny from being bored.

there will be relatively few parts that come along with USI-LS, mostly I'll just MM-up the stock crewed pieces

Music to my ears!

[PocketBrotector]

But suffice it to say it can boil down to 'Have enough space to make your crew happy long term, and if you're moving around, make sure you have enough space to make them happy for the duration of their trip away from the main base'.

Neat! This makes a lot of sense. It will be interesting to see what kind of habitation values are assigned to the various stock and USI crewable parts - this will determine whether the kerbal presence on other planets is in the style of "outpost with a rotating crew" vs. "Mars to stay."

One suggestion though - the meaning of the timer names "home" and "rest" aren't immediately obvious; would you consider "long-term" and "short-term" instead, or perhaps just "max" and "current"? I imagine this would reduce the number of confused support requests you end up getting here (kind of like how the UKS wiki helps explain its three or four similar-but-different systems for abstracting logistics.)

[RoverDude]

Which reminds me, ever played this mod? Have the descriptions of upgrades include things such as "pinball machines", "Quark's bar" and "tolerable temperature control", and volià!

Even without such silliness, it's a really cool mod that should be used more.

No idea if you linked the wrong thing or not... I have no idea what it is you are pointing out to me

[Sharkman Briton]

Rover, may I ask you a modding question?

I wanna know how to have the parts I've made in a seperate GameData file, not the Squad one's part file, same with the resource I made

Oh, okay then.

[RoverDude]

@Sharkman - your best bet is to ask your question on the relevant sub-forums (plugins, models) or see if someone in #KSPModders can help out

[Sharkman Briton]

Thanks, I wanted to ask here because if you ask there answers come in very slowly.

EDIT: Is #KSPModders an IRC chatroom? I don't have twitter and I can't find a KSPModders on Mibbit.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Sharkman Briton

[monstah]

No idea if you linked the wrong thing or not... I have no idea what it is you are pointing out to me

Yeah, sorry, should have elaborated (there's two mods in the same link? Silly me).

It's the partUpgrades mod: it allows you to add a module to any part, and in said module you tell that part to change it's characteristics based on unlocking tech.

So, for example, you can have Reliants that get lighter when you research some further node; gimbal might not come instantly with Swivels, but might need unlocking a node which will enable it in every engine featuring it. The change can be configured to affect already operating hardware, or only newly built ones. The mod itself is mostly framework, needing cfg's to exert change (few examples come bundled).

Or, in your case, a node might unlock "pinball machines" (purely descriptive text), which in practice means some habitational parts get a bump in ther home scores (you can even change the part's description text in the VAB to reflect the upgrade)

- - - Updated - - -

Is #KSPModders an IRC chatroom?

jup, it is. I feel wonky whenever I see mention of IRC. Seems so 90's to me!

- - - Updated - - -

Elaborating further on partUpgrades: since it's a dependency, I'd make optional MM patches for it.

Personally, I'd start with tech that's inferior to what a player without such mod would have; then I'd give it a bump to whatever the "default" (i.e., partUpgrade-less) values would be, and a final upgrade that's just slightly superior to what your original intended balance was (to give players that chose the challenge just a bit of a reward)

[rabidninjawombat]

Thanks, I wanted to ask here because if you ask there answers come in very slowly.

EDIT: Is #KSPModders an IRC chatroom? I don't have twitter and I can't find a KSPModders on Mibbit.

Yes it is @sharkman, and they can be really helpfull, If you dont have an IRC client, use this link here.

http://webchat.esper.net/?channels=kspmodders (should take you directly to the channel)

[skald]

I'm currently using TAC, always used it, but I love MKS so have been considering switching to this. I see containers for supplies and the chain to create them in MKS, but is there a way to recycle resources on space ships as well? That's something I like about TAC, it's a little to easy probably but nice to not have to create re-supply bases as much.

[goldenpsp]

I'm currently using TAC, always used it, but I love MKS so have been considering switching to this. I see containers for supplies and the chain to create them in MKS, but is there a way to recycle resources on space ships as well? That's something I like about TAC, it's a little to easy probably but nice to not have to create re-supply bases as much.

USI-LS includes a small and large size "Nom-o-matic" greenhouse part that can convert the waste product (mulch) back into supplies. It is not lossless of course but it can extend your supplies without needing any MKS parts.

I can say as a long time TAC user that in practice I have found little gameplay difference switching to USI-LS. Whether my "food" containers have 1 item or 3 has not changed the overall gameplay.

[skald]

USI-LS includes a small and large size "Nom-o-matic" greenhouse part that can convert the waste product (mulch) back into supplies. It is not lossless of course but it can extend your supplies without needing any MKS parts.

I can say as a long time TAC user that in practice I have found little gameplay difference switching to USI-LS. Whether my "food" containers have 1 item or 3 has not changed the overall gameplay.

thank you for the quick reply. I'm going to switch right now, the ability to be a little lazy while still needing to dedicate weight to life support was what I wanted. And it'll mesh better with mks.