[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, tater said:

New career works fine.

 

2 hours ago, Kowgan said:

Oh noes, I hope this won't be a perma save-breaking update.

Toss me your save file so I can debug - just make sure a sample craft that does this only uses USI mods

1 hour ago, Kobymaru said:

I gotta say, I'm having a rough time porting. Maybe I can make ends meet eventually...

For the people who say "BUT IT SAID GAME BREAKING!!!" Well, that's fine and well, but if I would start a new save every time Squad or a modder releases a bigger update, all my saves would consist of about one Mun landing. I need to keep my save even when things like this happen.

Neither of these should have been save breaking (and I can't repro the issue you folks are seeing).  One thing that folks can try is to just go into your persistence file and delete the entire LifeSupportScenario node to force it to re-initialize (then visit your ships).  Just look for this snippet:

    SCENARIO
    {
        name = LifeSupportScenario
        scene = 5, 7, 6

and delete the ENTIRE Scenario block (which includes all of your life support data).  That will foce them to be re-added.  Back up your save first.

1 hour ago, Kaa253 said:

I know this all too well.

This update looks intriguing and I am keen to try it. Would it be appropriate to add Hab support to selected parts of Nertea's stockalike station mod? parts http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/82833-105-stockalike-station-parts-expansion-06012016-105-update-and-bugfixes/&page=1. I think so. I see that LSModule.cfg contains suggested values.

Here's what I used for initial baselining:

//Suggested values for dedicated hab parts:
//  Kerbal Months should equal mass * 5
//    ReplacementParts = 100 * crew capacity + 100 * Kerbal Months. 
//For parts that act as hab multipliers, a multiplier equal to the tonnage works well - they should NOT also have extra Hab Months

 

[Kowgan]

Here you have it: http://puu.sh/mDWZ7/b5115706ce.rar
Thanks for the support. The sample craft is called USILS_DEBUG and is currently in LKO.

I'll try deleting the USI_LS scenario and will report my results.

Again, question: What is the default/maximum(?) homesick value for each kerbal once they leave Kerbin? Or is it entirely based on the vessel they're in?

-- Edit:
Unfortunately, removing the USI LS scenario didn't solve the issue.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Kowgan

[RoverDude]

Based on the vessel they are in, and the best vessel they were ever in.

Edited January 21, 2016 by RoverDude

[Kowgan]

Additional info.
I've started a new save, and the issue happens there as well. See pics below.

I also noticed that the hab counter isn't going down while the vessel is active. And it resets to the maximum value whenever the vessel is activated.

Pics in cronologic order.
1 - Vessel 2 http://puu.sh/mDYO2/d2c3133de1.jpg
2 - Vessel 2 (map view) http://puu.sh/mDYQb/9c5d21c23d.jpg
3 - Space center view http://puu.sh/mDYQU/9767f6fdac.jpg
4 - Vessel 1 http://puu.sh/mDYSC/c64d54066f.jpg

Edited January 21, 2016 by Kowgan

[tater]

4 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Neither of these should have been save breaking (and I can't repro the issue you folks are seeing).  One thing that folks can try is to just go into your persistence file and delete the entire LifeSupportScenario node to force it to re-initialize (then visit your ships).  Just look for this snippet:

    SCENARIO
    {
        name = LifeSupportScenario
        scene = 5, 7, 6

and delete the ENTIRE Scenario block (which includes all of your life support data).  That will foce them to be re-added.  Back up your save first.

This worked.

Note for others that you delete only the block that starts exactly as above (the Life Support section of the SCENARIO section, not starting at the first instance of "SCENARIO {" (which starts with contract stuff). This is the last scenario stuff before the flight data as I remember.

[panarchist]

On 1/19/2016 at 4:59 AM, RoverDude said:

New save or old save?  If this is an old save you will need to visit each vessel to initialize their stats for the UI

Is there an easy way to clean up "ghost" vessels?  I have two space stations (and their Kerbals) who show in the USI-LS list, but the stations were de-orbited some time ago. (and did not show in the prior version of USI-LS)  Do I just delete the relevant sections in the persistence file?  Or is there another recommended method?  Thanks!

[RoverDude]

I'd say just snuff those sections of the persistence file.

[Kobymaru]

9 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

I gotta say, I'm having a rough time porting. Maybe I can make ends meet eventually...

Turns out, my troubles were due to a missing 000_USITools. Deleted the old one, forgot the new one... Ooops.

I do have antother question, however. Are there USI-LS-only recyclers? I can't seem to find any new parts, and the Nom-o-matics don't have them and now the consumption on vessels without UKS-parts is awkwardly high.

[tater]

I think the tools was the issue, as well. The latest DL includes the tools, and the previous one (3.0.0) did not. As I was adding it to a new copy of KSP (modded), I didn't have any previous versions of the tools installed, just whatever came with the DL. Perhaps the lack of the tools somehow corrupted the SCENARIO data?

[RoverDude]

Your consumption should have been as-normal without UKS...  I will take a peek

(Addendum)

The intent will be to have a separate pack with some recyclers and habs that are not MKS, but gives you the bits you need to experience the new mechanics.

Edited January 21, 2016 by RoverDude

[Fraz86]

I've been trying to work out how exactly the HabitationModule works. I don't use MKS, but I intend to turn on the habitation mechanic and write configs for other mods to support it. I saw that LSModule.cfg gives the Hitchhiker a HabitationModule with 12 KerbalMonths (KM). At first, I assumed this would simply add 12 KM, or maybe 12 KM x # of seats (48 KM), but in testing I discovered that it's actually more complicated. It looks like the formula is Habitation = Vessel's total # of seats x (1 + Total of all KM added by HabitationModules). Is that correct and intended?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Fraz86

[RoverDude]

The general rule of thumb is that something is either a multiuplier, or adds KerbalMonths.

If it adds more space (KerbalMonths) add months equal to mass * 5

If it is a multiplier, set multiplier equal to the mass.

In either case, make sure you add ReplacementParts equal to: crew capacity + Kerbal Months. * 100

[Angelo Kerman]

5 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

The general rule of thumb is that something is either a multiuplier, or adds KerbalMonths.

If it adds more space (KerbalMonths) add months equal to mass * 5

If it is a multiplier, set multiplier equal to the mass.

In either case, make sure you add ReplacementParts equal to: crew capacity + Kerbal Months. * 100

I was about to update Pathfinder's support for USI-LS, and this information is pretty helpful. Thanks for posting it.

[tater]

I asked this before, but the answer to my other issue derailed the answer. How long is a "month?" is it a 6 day munar month, or some other value?

[Kowgan]

5 hours ago, tater said:

This worked.

Note for others that you delete only the block that starts exactly as above (the Life Support section of the SCENARIO section, not starting at the first instance of "SCENARIO {" (which starts with contract stuff). This is the last scenario stuff before the flight data as I remember.

So, this?
On my first attempt, I deleted the whole SCENARIO node (line 16514 and below). The issue persisted. And as stated previously, the issue persists even on a new save.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Kowgan

[goldenpsp]

9 minutes ago, tater said:

I asked this before, but the answer to my other issue derailed the answer. How long is a "month?" is it a 6 day munar month, or some other value?

Since the game seems to only show kerbin time I would expect it is a kerbin month. 

[tater]

1 hour ago, Kowgan said:

So, this?
On my first attempt, I deleted the whole SCENARIO node (line 16514 and below). The issue persisted. And as stated previously, the issue persists even on a new save.

This:

	SCENARIO
	{
		name = LifeSupportScenario
		scene = 5, 7, 6
		LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS
		{
			STATUS_DATA
			{
				KerbalName = Ribsy Kerman
				LastMeal = 44977776.7516371
				LastOnKerbin = 44977772.3516364
				MaxOffKerbinTime = 1016977772.35164
				LastVesselId = 0cc1243c-29ea-4418-9ae1-342b40db4501
				TimeInVessel = 0
				IsGrouchy = False
				OldTrait = Scientist
				LastUpdate = 44977776.7516371
			}
			STATUS_DATA
			{
				All the other kerbals look like the example above.
	}

All the other KerbalNames until you get to the close } of this section (name = LifeSupportScenario) of SCENARIO.

1 hour ago, goldenpsp said:

Since the game seems to only show kerbin time I would expect it is a kerbin month. 

I know it's a Kerbin month... How long is a Kerbin month? An Earth month is defined (originally) by the Moon. Kerbin has 2 moons, so which month is it, or is it arbitrary?

A Munar month is ~6 days. A Minmus month is around 50 days. If you divide the Kerbin year into equal sections, you can also get six 71 periods. Which is it?

Edited January 21, 2016 by tater

[mcortez]

On 1/8/2016 at 1:03 PM, CorBlimey said:

 

On 1/8/2016 at 2:02 PM, goldenpsp said:

That's not what we were talking about however.  I'm all for having to design a long term "base" with amenities to keep the kerbals happy.  The potential issue (from the post with the ideas) is that I don't want to have to manually move kerbals to these facililites.  It would be good enough IMO if the kerbals moving around to "watch a movie" was automatic.

I was just looking into this as I'm trying to calculate the resources needed for a crew of 5 in a deep space cruiser that I plan to build, for a 5 year mission.  Here's the KSP wiki page for it: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Time

Summary:

Kerbin Day: 6 Hours
Kerbin Month: 38.6 Hours or 6.4 days
Kerbin Year: 2556.5 Hours, or 426 days, or 66.23 months

Total wackyness.

@RoverDude What's the approximate max efficiency we can expect to reach with recyclers? My design will have a Pioneer, Kerbitat, Workspace, Agricultural, Aeroponics, Habitat Ring and Shipyard -- going through the Parts files on github I see that five of those parts have recyclers with values (.75, .5, .25, .5, .25) -- and I'm going to guess that the recyclers are NOT going to drop supply consumption from 16.2 per day (.00075 * 60 * 60 * 6) down to 0.12 per day (16.2 * .75 * .5 * .25 *.5 *.25)  Thanks!

Edit: If it matters I was only planning on a crew of 5, 1x Pilot, 2xEngineer and 2xScientist -- I haven't cross checked to see if that means I can't man everything that has minimum crew to operate

Edit 2: Digging through LifeSupportManager.cs and it looks like if my crew is small (<= 5), that it's just the highest recycler that applies -- so in my case, 4.05 supplies per day?

Edited January 21, 2016 by mcortez

[apocriva]

 

//A Kerbal month is 30 six-hour Kerbin days.

A Kerbin month is defined as 30 days in USI-LS.

[Kowgan]

21 minutes ago, tater said:

This:

-snip-

Yes, that's what I deleted the first time.

[mcortez]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

The general rule of thumb is that something is either a multiuplier, or adds KerbalMonths.

If it adds more space (KerbalMonths) add months equal to mass * 5

If it is a multiplier, set multiplier equal to the mass.

In either case, make sure you add ReplacementParts equal to: crew capacity + Kerbal Months. * 100

I was looking through the parts configs while at work (no firing up KSP without getting dirty looks from my co-workers that can't seem to hit their deadlines AND have spare time) -- and noticed that some OKS parts have room for crew, but no ModuleHabitation (examples include Aero, Agro and Workspace).  Do these modules still contribute to Habitation via a default -- or do they simply have no effect plus (or minus) to habitation?

Also I remember a reference somewhere to loneliness -- is that still a thing?

[mcortez]

28 minutes ago, apocriva said:

A Kerbin month is defined as 30 days in USI-LS.

Well that certainly makes more sense than the KSP wiki, thanks for the info!

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Angel-125 said:

I was about to update Pathfinder's support for USI-LS, and this information is pretty helpful. Thanks for posting it.

Good deal - just make sure you include a life support config that lights up the hab options (the UKS one does it).  I intentionally default them as *off* because I did not want to break other mods that have USI-LS support.

(edit)

Remember that LS configs are additive, so you just make your own, drop it in your mod, and it will automagically delta to the most pessimistic combination that it finds.

Edited January 21, 2016 by RoverDude

[tater]

Wow. OK. So Kerbin has a 14 month year, with a "holiday week" someplace in there? Strange.

Since the month is arbitrarily defined in days (seconds?) how is it calibrated to Earth days? I can find it in here someplace, where roverdude listed some of his baseline assumptions regarding net consumables used per unit time... I wonder if it is roughly scale to kerbal size vs humans, and kerbal days standing in for Earth days. Ie: If a human uses a net 1.8 kg/24 hours, and kerbals are 40% of humans, would they use 0.72kg per 24 hours, or would they use 0.72kg per 6 hour day, instead?

I'm asking with an eye towards scaled up games (k-365, SKY, 64X, RSS, etc).

 

(I tried searching, but the new forum will not let me constrain the search to the add-ons under development section where I think I recall Roverdude making the post).

Edited January 21, 2016 by tater

[mcortez]

1 hour ago, Fraz86 said:

I've been trying to work out how exactly the HabitationModule works. I don't use MKS, but I intend to turn on the habitation mechanic and write configs for other mods to support it. I saw that LSModule.cfg gives the Hitchhiker a HabitationModule with 12 KerbalMonths (KM). At first, I assumed this would simply add 12 KM, or maybe 12 KM x # of seats (48 KM), but in testing I discovered that it's actually more complicated. It looks like the formula is Habitation = Vessel's total # of seats x (1 + Total of all KM added by HabitationModules). Is that correct and intended?

Assuming I'm groking roverdude's code correctly, habitation is currently calculated using 3 main factors: Crew Ratio to Crew Capacity, Habitation adds via HabitationModule and habitation multipliers via HabitationModule.

Crew Ratio = Crew Capacity / Crew Present
Habitation Adds = 1 (by default in LS config) + all values added in parts via HabitationModule
Habitation Multiplier = 1 (by default in LS config) + values from HabitationModule (I'm not sure what happens if you have 2 multipliers, do they add 1.25 (OKS Aeroponics) + 3 (OKS Kerbitat) or multiply 1.25 * 3)

Total is then H-Adds * H-Multipliers * CrewRatio