[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[PocketBrotector]

I think I'm having an issue with underperforming recyclers. I've got an Akademy with twelve scientists and three Pioneer modules (plus four inflatable habs and two inflatable ag modules). With all of the pioneer module's recyclers turned on, I would expect supply consumption to total 48.6 (16.2 per kerbal per day * 12 kerbals / 4 for the 75% recyclers). Actual supply consumption is 63.2 (though if I turn on the inflatables' recyclers, I can reduce it to 53.3). Are there supposed to be diminishing returns with multiple recyclers?

[mcortez]

On 2/9/2016 at 9:03 PM, Perry Apsis said:

I am a little confused. I'm running MKS-L and USI-LS. In USI-LS.version, I've got

I never got a confirmation on it, but based on what I've picked up I made this post a couple of pages back:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/105202-105-usi-life-support-036-bug-fix-update/&page=61#comment-2385425

Basically, I think there's a max benefit of 50% total supply reduction from recyclers.  However I'm not sure if that jives with what you're seeing  

[cxg021]

I must be missing something because I am trying to adjust the settings on the USI Life Support mod but can't seem to get any changes to take. I change settings in the GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg and GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS-LITE/USI-LS.cfg but it doesn't seem to make any difference. No matter what I adjust my kerbals get low on supplies and habitation and then go prompt-mutinous/MIA.

I would like to keep the supplies game mechanics but I am trying to turn off the habitation timer (at least until I start a new save). Is there another settings file that  I need to modify?

Thanks,

cxg

[Andem]

12 hours ago, cxg021 said:

I must be missing something because I am trying to adjust the settings on the USI Life Support mod but can't seem to get any changes to take. I change settings in the GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg and GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS-LITE/USI-LS.cfg but it doesn't seem to make any difference. No matter what I adjust my kerbals get low on supplies and habitation and then go prompt-mutinous/MIA.

I would like to keep the supplies game mechanics but I am trying to turn off the habitation timer (at least until I start a new save). Is there another settings file that  I need to modify?

Thanks,

cxg

Welcome to the forums! If you take a peek at the previous page, you will see that I had some trouble making things extra fatal for my Kerbals. Check out that, and if you still are having trouble ask again 

[RoverDude]

So many posts!

On 2/10/2016 at 5:04 PM, ThaZeus said:

Few Questions:

• What is the point of the recycler in the stock mobile processing lab? It takes electric charge and  replacement parts but gives nothing back!
• What is the point of the replacement parts?
• What is this "Habitation" I hear people mention? and where can i figure out the habitation of something?

 

 

1.  Reduces supply consumption.

2.  Tracks wear and tear of habitation parts (think setting up a tent in a swamp... eventually the tent is going to rot).

3.  It's how long a Kerbal is willing to stay in your swamp-tent before getting fed up.  You can see the stats for this in the life support window (click the green cube).

On 2/10/2016 at 5:12 PM, ThaZeus said:

So how do we find out the habitation of a ship?

 

See above - green cube icon in the toolbar

On 2/10/2016 at 5:30 PM, Whovian41110 said:

When I have K&K Planetary Base mod the tanks disappear and I'm left with the system from that mod.  How do I get these containers back?

Talk to the author of that mod or ask in that thread.

On 2/11/2016 at 10:47 PM, PocketBrotector said:

I think I'm having an issue with underperforming recyclers. I've got an Akademy with twelve scientists and three Pioneer modules (plus four inflatable habs and two inflatable ag modules). With all of the pioneer module's recyclers turned on, I would expect supply consumption to total 48.6 (16.2 per kerbal per day * 12 kerbals / 4 for the 75% recyclers). Actual supply consumption is 63.2 (though if I turn on the inflatables' recyclers, I can reduce it to 53.3). Are there supposed to be diminishing returns with multiple recyclers?

I'd have to check - log a github issue

On 2/11/2016 at 10:55 PM, mcortez said:

I never got a confirmation on it, but based on what I've picked up I made this post a couple of pages back:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/105202-105-usi-life-support-036-bug-fix-update/&page=61#comment-2385425

Basically, I think there's a max benefit of 50% total supply reduction from recyclers.  However I'm not sure if that jives with what you're seeing  

Max is actually based on your very best recycler

14 hours ago, cxg021 said:

I must be missing something because I am trying to adjust the settings on the USI Life Support mod but can't seem to get any changes to take. I change settings in the GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg and GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS-LITE/USI-LS.cfg but it doesn't seem to make any difference. No matter what I adjust my kerbals get low on supplies and habitation and then go prompt-mutinous/MIA.

I would like to keep the supplies game mechanics but I am trying to turn off the habitation timer (at least until I start a new save). Is there another settings file that  I need to modify?

Thanks,

cxg

If you have UKS or MKS-Lite  you need to edit those too (USI-LS takes the most pessimistic combination of all discovered config files).

[autospamfighter]

Is Bob Kerman supposed to be grumpy and quit? Have USI-Kolonization and USI-LS. Moderate mode. No config edits.

[ExplorerKlatt]

26 minutes ago, autospamfighter said:

Is Bob Kerman supposed to be grumpy and quit? Have USI-Kolonization and USI-LS. Moderate mode. No config edits.

Yes in the latest version Roverdude changed the defaults to remove Vets immunity. 

[autospamfighter]

1 hour ago, ExplorerKlatt said:

Yes in the latest version Roverdude changed the defaults to remove Vets immunity. 

dang, is there a way to hack gim to life?

Edited February 14, 2016 by autospamfighter

[RoverDude]

Yep, just go to your persistence file and look for the IsGrouchy flag - always back up first!

[mikegarrison]

Hey, I'm playing this for the first time and I see some behaviors I wasn't expecting from the wiki or the description in this thread. Maybe it's explained in the 70 pages of thread, but...

1) OK, so the description in the first page that says Jeb and Bob etc. are exempt is false. (Maybe the first page should be edited? A post right above mine says something about this behavior being the new default.)

2) Early in career mode, before solar panels are available, the most obvious way to stretch out battery life is to simply turn off the batteries except when needed for something. Apparently that also stops the timer on the life support mod? Seems kind of counter-intuitive that you can take MORE life support away and the Kerbals don't mind, but if you keep them supplied with power then bad things can happen.

3) MechJeb will happily fly the ships around no matter whether the Kerbals are supplied or not. But hey ... MechJeb. (I guess I can assume the flight is being done by remote control.)

4) I just accepted a contract to pick up some stranded dude on the Mun. I figured he wouldn't show up in my life support list until I rescued him, but no. He's listed as having exceeded his EVA time limit. I didn't even know there was an EVA time limit. It was the first time I saw that mentioned anywhere. When I finally go rescue him sometime in the next 9+ years, will he be OK? Will I be able to "]" take him over and walk him to my rescue ship?

[RoverDude]

0.3.12 - 2016.02.13
-------------------
Various display bug fixes

9 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

Hey, I'm playing this for the first time and I see some behaviors I wasn't expecting from the wiki or the description in this thread. Maybe it's explained in the 70 pages of thread, but...

1) OK, so the description in the first page that says Jeb and Bob etc. are exempt is false. (Maybe the first page should be edited? A post right above mine says something about this behavior being the new default.)

2) Early in career mode, before solar panels are available, the most obvious way to stretch out battery life is to simply turn off the batteries except when needed for something. Apparently that also stops the timer on the life support mod? Seems kind of counter-intuitive that you can take MORE life support away and the Kerbals don't mind, but if you keep them supplied with power then bad things can happen.

3) MechJeb will happily fly the ships around no matter whether the Kerbals are supplied or not. But hey ... MechJeb. (I guess I can assume the flight is being done by remote control.)

4) I just accepted a contract to pick up some stranded dude on the Mun. I figured he wouldn't show up in my life support list until I rescued him, but no. He's listed as having exceeded his EVA time limit. I didn't even know there was an EVA time limit. It was the first time I saw that mentioned anywhere. When I finally go rescue him sometime in the next 9+ years, will he be OK? Will I be able to "]" take him over and walk him to my rescue ship?

1.  This changed, yes it is the new default

2.  That should just be visual, but I'll take a peek

3.  Sorry, can't control MechJeb

4.  See if that still occurs in the new patch - if so, logging github issues is the best way to get things changed

[mikegarrison]

Yup. Poor Nedden Kerman is still "EVA time expired" on the list. I feel for him, standing there next to his rover or capsule or whatever on the Mun.

So ... when I get there, will I be able to rescue him? What does "EVA Time Expired" mean, anyway? I didn't see it in any of the documentation.

And I have no idea how or where to "log a github issue". Is there a FAQ?

Edited February 14, 2016 by mikegarrison

[Kowgan]

Thanks for the update!

The UI still shows vessels as landed instead of orbiting, though.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Kowgan

[Kobymaru]

This is GitHub Issue #76.

Hi! It seems that although some Life Support Recyclers work, some of them simply don't.

 

Here's what works:

- Mobile Processing Lab
- UKS Pioneer Module (Orbital)
- UKS Kerbitat (tm) (Orbital)
- MK-V 'Scout' Command Pod
- UKS Pioneer Module (Surface)
- UKS Kerbitat (tm) (Surface)
- MK-V Habitation Module, albeit the recycling rate is very low.

Here's what doesn't work:
- UKS Aeroponics Module (Orbital)
- OKS Agricultural Module
- OKS Habitation Ring
- UKS Aeroponics Module (Surface)

[Sir_Robert]

So I have a few questions regarding how long supplies last. (using MKS lite)

I am currently planning my first mission to Duna with Life support installed, and besides the 'holy crap I am going to need a lot', I found that the Life Support Status window in the VAB doesn't account for recyclers or supplies production (nom-o-matic in my case.

Would it be possible to include something like this, to help with planning how much supplies you need.

Unless of course I'm missing something again, but I haven't been able to find some guides about this life support like there is on the MKS.

 

PS: Holy crap I need a lot of Hitchhiker cans for the habitat requirements. Does that get better? Like is there something more efficient later down the line?

[goldenpsp]

16 minutes ago, Sir_Robert said:

So I have a few questions regarding how long supplies last. (using MKS lite)

I am currently planning my first mission to Duna with Life support installed, and besides the 'holy crap I am going to need a lot', I found that the Life Support Status window in the VAB doesn't account for recyclers or supplies production (nom-o-matic in my case.

Would it be possible to include something like this, to help with planning how much supplies you need.

Unless of course I'm missing something again, but I haven't been able to find some guides about this life support like there is on the MKS.

 

PS: Holy crap I need a lot of Hitchhiker cans for the habitat requirements. Does that get better? Like is there something more efficient later down the line?

Depends, How many Kerbals are you trying to send (keep in mind Roverdude has always talked about overstuffing).

1 Mk1-2 Capsule with 3 kerbals, 1 hitchicker, 1 2.5 supply container, and 1 science lab with recycler turned on yields 308 days of supplies, and 215 days of habitation.

 

Honestly this is one area where I find it worthwhile to bite the bullet and go with full MKS.  Some excellent parts to bump up habitation for your interplanetary flights.

[PocketBrotector]

2 hours ago, Sir_Robert said:

So I have a few questions regarding how long supplies last. (using MKS lite)

I am currently planning my first mission to Duna with Life support installed, and besides the 'holy crap I am going to need a lot', I found that the Life Support Status window in the VAB doesn't account for recyclers or supplies production (nom-o-matic in my case.

Would it be possible to include something like this, to help with planning how much supplies you need.

Unless of course I'm missing something again, but I haven't been able to find some guides about this life support like there is on the MKS.

PS: Holy crap I need a lot of Hitchhiker cans for the habitat requirements. Does that get better? Like is there something more efficient later down the line?

You definitely want a recycler (science lab) and converter (greenhouse) for interplanetary missions, as the mass you "spend" on those parts will be saved (and then some) on the mass of the supplies you don't have to bring. Similarly, hab multiplier(s) (cupola) will enhance the effectiveness of your hab space (hitchhiker cans).

On a different topic...

I was posting a USI-LS config for KPBS on that mod's thread, and @Kowgan pointed out that my configs were at risk of conflicting with the catch-all config included with USI-LS. There is some uncertainty as to the exact order in which ModuleManager applies patches. Consider this example of a custom config and its interaction with LSModule.cfg...

1. If the custom config runs first then LSModule, MM filters out the part when LSModule runs, because it already has USI_ModuleLifeSupport, so everything is fine.
2. If LSModule is applied first, then we end up with two different USI_ModuleLifeSupport and USI_ModuleFieldRepair modules on the same part, along with competing quantities for ReplacementParts - not good.

Then I considered adding the !MODULE[ModuleLifeSupport] filter to the custom config as well, which would prevent the duplication... but instead, if LSModule is applied before the custom config, the part ends up with completely generic modules and ReplacementParts quantities instead of the hand-chosen hab space/hab multiplier/recycler values. 

So instead I am playing around with the edit-or-create function ("%") in ModuleManager. As I've never used it before, this is just an experimental first pass - but here is a generic template. This should create the relevant bits if it happens to be applied before LSModule; if LSModule goes first, it overrides the generic values instead - no interference or duplication, and nothing missed.

I guess the question now is - what's the best way to test it to confirm everything is working correctly? Most of these modules aren't exposed in the VAB UI, so I started by saving a craft and then inspecting the .craft file; but that's sort of maddening, and I still don't know the order that the patches are actually being applied, so I can't really say for sure if it's working correctly in every scenario.

[Fraz86]

On 2/9/2016 at 11:30 AM, RoverDude said:

I've actually yanked replacementparts from the recyclers as these are already consumed as part of life support itself

Sounds good. However, the Mobile Processing Lab's recycler (added by LSModule.cfg) still consumes replacementparts.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Fraz86

[mcortez]

11 minutes ago, PocketBrotector said:

 

I was posting a USI-LS config for KPBS on that mod's thread, and @Kowgan pointed out that my configs were at risk of conflicting with the catch-all config included with USI-LS. There is some uncertainty as to the exact order in which ModuleManager applies patches. Consider this example of a custom config and its interaction with LSModule.cfg...

Isn't that what the BEFORE and AFTER keywords are for?

From the mod-manager wiki:

"Patch order

The BEFORE and AFTER (and FOR?) keywords can be used to control in what order your patch is applied. The value passed to BEFORE or AFTER is the name of the mod, defined as the name of the directory directly under GameData? This lets you patch patches or patch patches of patches, as deep as you'd like to go."

[PocketBrotector]

14 minutes ago, mcortez said:

Isn't that what the BEFORE and AFTER keywords are for?

Yeah I suppose so, though the question mark-laden documentation does not give me a lot of confidence in its accuracy. Also there's still possibly a question of which patches are applied first within each pass (e.g. if two both have the AFTER keyword.) Hopefully using edit-or-replace will make it work correctly regardless of the order of application - though I still need to confirm it's working as suggested by the same wiki.

[Kowgan]

@PocketBrotector You could also remove all the modules but ModuleHabitation and ModulePowerCoupler, since you know for sure the others are already added by LSModule.

Else, according to the MM wiki, you could use the % operator before all modules, since % seems to be used to "Edit-or-create".
Nevermind, you've already mentioned that above.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Kowgan

[CovertJaguar]

3 hours ago, PocketBrotector said:

I guess the question now is - what's the best way to test it to confirm everything is working correctly? Most of these modules aren't exposed in the VAB UI, so I started by saving a craft and then inspecting the .craft file; but that's sort of maddening, and I still don't know the order that the patches are actually being applied, so I can't really say for sure if it's working correctly in every scenario.

Well, the alt-F12 menu can be used to inspect the actual resulting part files after MM is done. I forget whether it is the config or database tabs, but eventually you will find a list of parts with a debug button next to them. Hitting the debug button will display the Part module in raw form. Granted this doesn't really help you determine which order patches are being applied anymore than what you are already doing. I'm still trying to figure out why the Inline Ballutes mod suddenly stopped applying the RealChute compat patches. 

[Sir_Robert]

9 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

Depends, How many Kerbals are you trying to send (keep in mind Roverdude has always talked about overstuffing).

1 Mk1-2 Capsule with 3 kerbals, 1 hitchicker, 1 2.5 supply container, and 1 science lab with recycler turned on yields 308 days of supplies, and 215 days of habitation.

 

Honestly this is one area where I find it worthwhile to bite the bullet and go with full MKS.  Some excellent parts to bump up habitation for your interplanetary flights.

Yea I might just have to go full MKS anyway.

My initial goal was to send 3 Kerbals. At the very least I need a scientists and a pilot (well I 'could' just send a scientist and a probe body, but I don't want to just leave Bob with noone to talk to for 2,5 years)

[goldenpsp]

1 hour ago, Sir_Robert said:

Yea I might just have to go full MKS anyway.

My initial goal was to send 3 Kerbals. At the very least I need a scientists and a pilot (well I 'could' just send a scientist and a probe body, but I don't want to just leave Bob with noone to talk to for 2,5 years)

Well then you could almost make it with just the setup I tested.  Not a huge ship.  Keep in mind your hab timer doesn't have to be the ENTIRE mission time.  The Kerbals will get happier once you reach Duna and they can go down to the surface and setup a nice base to live in.

[Sir_Robert]

Just now, goldenpsp said:

Well then you could almost make it with just the setup I tested.  Not a huge ship.  Keep in mind your hab timer doesn't have to be the ENTIRE mission time.  The Kerbals will get happier once you reach Duna and they can go down to the surface and setup a nice base to live in.

This is my first mission away from Kerbin. I don't have a base yet. It was supposed to be apollo style touch down and go home

Man, I am going to have to completely rethink this from the ground up aren't I? Maybe I'll delay the whole mission and send some probes ahead to setup a habitat on Ike