[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[tsaven]

14 minutes ago, DStaal said:

You've forgotten water.    The 89% recyclers need 18 units of water per hour to run - really, it's best to think of them as converting *water* into supplies.  (Or: Undrinkable water into usable water.)

From looking at the KBPS .cfg files, I wasn't seeing that they do?

Spoiler

@PART[KKAOSS_Habitat_MK2_g]:FOR[PlanetarySurfaceStructures]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Mulch
        amount = 0
        maxAmount = 100
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = Supplies
        amount = 200
        maxAmount = 200
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleHabitation
        KerbalMonths = 13
    }
    RESOURCE
    {
        name = ReplacementParts
        amount = 1700
        maxAmount = 1700
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = USI_ModuleFieldRepair
    }
    
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleLifeSupportRecycler
        CrewCapacity = 4
        RecyclePercent = .66
        ConverterName = Life Support
        tag = Life Support
        StartActionName = Start Life Support
        StopActionName = Stop Life Support

        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = ElectricCharge
            Ratio = 1
        }
    }
    
}

Although you're right in that the file lists the RecyclePercent as .66.  So why is it showing up as 89% in the build assist in-game?

(Also, what's up with this ReplacementPart mechanic?)

[DStaal]

You've got a set of UKS compatibility patches around as well - they give a few different recyclers.  The water use is mentioned in the part description in the VAB.  That also brings in replacement parts - stuff will wear out over time, and need to be repaired.  Engineers can use replacement parts to do repairs.  Technically that's a part of this mod, but I believe it's disabled by default - UKS enables it if it's installed.

[tsaven]

7 minutes ago, DStaal said:

You've got a set of UKS compatibility patches around as well - they give a few different recyclers.  The water use is mentioned in the part description in the VAB.  That also brings in replacement parts - stuff will wear out over time, and need to be repaired.  Engineers can use replacement parts to do repairs.  Technically that's a part of this mod, but I believe it's disabled by default - UKS enables it if it's installed.

Well look at that, so I do.  Had forgotten about these.

Spoiler

@PART[KKAOSS_Habitat_MK2_g]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{
    %MODULE[ModuleLifeSupport] { }

    %RESOURCE[ReplacementParts]
    {
        %amount = 1700 //100 * crew capacity + 100 * Kerbal-Months
        %maxAmount = 1700
    }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleHabitation
        KerbalMonths = 13 //mass * 5
    }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleLifeSupportRecycler
        CrewCapacity = 5
        RecyclePercent = .90
        ConverterName = Water Purifier
        tag = Purifier
        StartActionName = Start Water Purifier
        StopActionName = Stop Water Purifier

        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = ElectricCharge
            Ratio = 1
        }
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Water
            Ratio = 0.005
        }
    }

    %MODULE[USI_ModuleFieldRepair] { }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModulePowerCoupler
        PowerCouplingRange = 500
    }
}

I've got UKI installed as well, but I never see ReplacementParts listed in any of their converter flow charts.  Just MaterialKits and Machinery.

[Malich]

You're better with mobile labs or pioneer modules for recycling. Lower efficiency but no water need as stated above. Youd need 3 habitats at 54 water an hour (54kg per hour) for a whopping 138 tons of water per year!

[tsaven]

9 minutes ago, Malich said:

You're better with mobile labs or pioneer modules for recycling. Lower efficiency but no water need as stated above. Youd need 3 habitats at 54 water an hour (54kg per hour) for a whopping 138 tons of water per year!

Yeah, for interplanetary vessels it seems you're right.  Using the water recyclers doesn't make sense.  But now that I've remembered I have these KPBS/UKS compatibility patches installed it seems I was basing my calculations off the wrong files.  So let me take another crack at this, and correct me if I'm wrong:

12 Kerbins * 16.2 Supplies per day per kerbal = 192.4 supplies consumed per day.  Using the KPRB Greenhouse recycler at 75% reduces total vessel consumption to 48.1 Supplies per day.  On the other hand, that converter only applies to 5 kerbals.  The UKI Wiki says that " efficiency bonuses govern total throughput, but not conversion ratios."  So with bonuses, I can increase the number of Kerbals that the recycler affects, correct? Let's hope so.

5 years * 426 days = 4260 days * 48.1 supplies per day = 204,906 supplies needed for a 10 year mission.

For using a single KPBS Planetary Greenhouse, the updated .cfg files for KPBS greenhouses say they consume .0045 Mulch and .0006 Fertilizer, and produce .0051 Supplies.  Or 97.2 Mulch, 12.96 Fertilizer, and produce 110.16 Supplies per day. So the greenhouse now seems slightly more efficient, using 7.5 Mulch + 1 Fertilizer = 8.5 Supplies.  So for a 10 year mission I will need:

A small baseline of Supplies, and 24,106 Fertilizer.

How's that check out?

[DStaal]

37 minutes ago, tsaven said:

Well look at that, so I do.  Had forgotten about these.

  Reveal hidden contents

@PART[KKAOSS_Habitat_MK2_g]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{
    %MODULE[ModuleLifeSupport] { }

    %RESOURCE[ReplacementParts]
    {
        %amount = 1700 //100 * crew capacity + 100 * Kerbal-Months
        %maxAmount = 1700
    }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleHabitation
        KerbalMonths = 13 //mass * 5
    }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleLifeSupportRecycler
        CrewCapacity = 5
        RecyclePercent = .90
        ConverterName = Water Purifier
        tag = Purifier
        StartActionName = Start Water Purifier
        StopActionName = Stop Water Purifier

        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = ElectricCharge
            Ratio = 1
        }
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Water
            Ratio = 0.005
        }
    }

    %MODULE[USI_ModuleFieldRepair] { }

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModulePowerCoupler
        PowerCouplingRange = 500
    }
}

I've got UKI installed as well, but I never see ReplacementParts listed in any of their converter flow charts.  Just MaterialKits and Machinery.

That's because normally it's a hidden resource - created and dealt with in the background, as a proxy.  (I'm not even sure they are still used...)

Malich has a good point - but if you'll check the parts, you'll notice that the lower-quality recycler you showed from their other config is present as well.  So you can just enable the 66% recycler during the trip, and save yourself some part counts if you want.  (Pioneer modules would get you 75%, IIRC, so up to you whether you think the additional fertilizer is more of a hassle or the additional parts.)

[tsaven]

11 minutes ago, DStaal said:

That's because normally it's a hidden resource - created and dealt with in the background, as a proxy.  (I'm not even sure they are still used...)

Malich has a good point - but if you'll check the parts, you'll notice that the lower-quality recycler you showed from their other config is present as well.  So you can just enable the 66% recycler during the trip, and save yourself some part counts if you want.  (Pioneer modules would get you 75%, IIRC, so up to you whether you think the additional fertilizer is more of a hassle or the additional parts.)

Oh, I see.  You're right, there are two recycler options there.

Although to be honest, now that I've realized I don't need that many greenhouses (And consequently the Kerbals to staff them) I think I can do this mission with just 8 crew.  Eliminating an entire habitat is good, I just need to understand better if the modules need to be staffed with scientists or engineers for best efficiency.

[MalevolentNinja]

8 hours ago, tsaven said:

Yeah, for interplanetary vessels it seems you're right.  Using the water recyclers doesn't make sense.  But now that I've remembered I have these KPBS/UKS compatibility patches installed it seems I was basing my calculations off the wrong files.  So let me take another crack at this, and correct me if I'm wrong:

12 Kerbins * 16.2 Supplies per day per kerbal = 192.4 supplies consumed per day.  Using the KPRB Greenhouse recycler at 75% reduces total vessel consumption to 48.1 Supplies per day.  On the other hand, that converter only applies to 5 kerbals.  The UKI Wiki says that " efficiency bonuses govern total throughput, but not conversion ratios."  So with bonuses, I can increase the number of Kerbals that the recycler affects, correct? Let's hope so.

5 years * 426 days = 4260 days * 48.1 supplies per day = 204,906 supplies needed for a 10 year mission.

For using a single KPBS Planetary Greenhouse, the updated .cfg files for KPBS greenhouses say they consume .0045 Mulch and .0006 Fertilizer, and produce .0051 Supplies.  Or 97.2 Mulch, 12.96 Fertilizer, and produce 110.16 Supplies per day. So the greenhouse now seems slightly more efficient, using 7.5 Mulch + 1 Fertilizer = 8.5 Supplies.  So for a 10 year mission I will need:

A small baseline of Supplies, and 24,106 Fertilizer.

How's that check out?

Your math looks right to me. Basically, I take ( Supplies + ( Fertilizer * 8.5 ) ) / ( daily Supplies consumption rate ) = how many days my mission can go. This simplified formula works because 1 Fertilizer (plus Mulch which you get for free) gets turned back into 8.5 supplies.

Just make sure your total ( daily Greenhouse Mulch in capacity ) >= ( daily Supplies consumption rate ) you're good to go. Well, don't forget enough power for all that

Edit: I noticed your question about recyclers. The recyclers only work for the stated capacity. So say you had 10 Kerbals, one Pioneer Module and one Mobile Processing Lab. The Pioneer is 75% recycle for 5 kerbals and the MPL is 70% for 5 kerbals so your effective recycle rate for the 10 is 72.5%. I don't believe this will be effected by any bonuses - that's for the other MKS converters.

8 kerbals @ 75% recycle rate = 32.4 Supplies per day. That's just 2 Nom-O-Matic 5000's. The little ones. But hey if you wanna lug around those huge greenhouses, be my guest I do tend to over-engineer my greenhouses a bit. Sometimes due to the buggy nature of high speed time warp I build up excess Mulch and I like to have some extra headroom in my greenhouse.

Edited June 8, 2016 by MalevolentNinja

[PringleMan]

Can I put in a request?

Can you please make the included supplies tanks have a method of jettisoning mulch? I just hit 30 days in to a mission and had them all quit working because even though they had about 3.5k supplies left, the mulch filled up and I guess that made them turn into tourists.

edit: For those concerned, I did jury rig a resource converter module with no output to solve the situation short term, I just was asking for a solution that wont get broken every update of USI LS

Edited June 10, 2016 by PringleMan

[goldenpsp]

54 minutes ago, PringleMan said:

Can I put in a request?

Can you please make the included supplies tanks have a method of jettisoning mulch? I just hit 30 days in to a mission and had them all quit working because even though they had about 3.5k supplies left, the mulch filled up and I guess that made them turn into tourists.

edit: For those concerned, I did jury rig a resource converter module with no output to solve the situation short term, I just was asking for a solution that wont get broken every update of USI LS

hmm sounds like a bug.  I thought excess mulch was supposed to be jettisoned by default.

[DStaal]

Yeah, I'd check habitation on that mission - it's likely the problem wasn't that they ran out of supplies.

[tsaven]

On 6/7/2016 at 9:09 PM, MalevolentNinja said:

Your math looks right to me. Basically, I take ( Supplies + ( Fertilizer * 8.5 ) ) / ( daily Supplies consumption rate ) = how many days my mission can go. This simplified formula works because 1 Fertilizer (plus Mulch which you get for free) gets turned back into 8.5 supplies.

Just make sure your total ( daily Greenhouse Mulch in capacity ) >= ( daily Supplies consumption rate ) you're good to go. Well, don't forget enough power for all that

Edit: I noticed your question about recyclers. The recyclers only work for the stated capacity. So say you had 10 Kerbals, one Pioneer Module and one Mobile Processing Lab. The Pioneer is 75% recycle for 5 kerbals and the MPL is 70% for 5 kerbals so your effective recycle rate for the 10 is 72.5%. I don't believe this will be effected by any bonuses - that's for the other MKS converters.

8 kerbals @ 75% recycle rate = 32.4 Supplies per day. That's just 2 Nom-O-Matic 5000's. The little ones. But hey if you wanna lug around those huge greenhouses, be my guest I do tend to over-engineer my greenhouses a bit. Sometimes due to the buggy nature of high speed time warp I build up excess Mulch and I like to have some extra headroom in my greenhouse.

Thanks for the info on vessel efficiency.  Didn't really know what it applied to.

The Greenhouse has a lot of other benefits besides the Agroponics.  It's a 75% recycler, but also gives a 3.5 Hab bonus and gives extra  2 Workspaces.  And let's not forget the most important part that they just look so cool!   And have great IVAs, something which I know is ultra low priority for Roverdude but is pretty important to me.

[RoverDude]

Sounds incredibly unbalanced, unless that greenhouse is now a 7.5 ton + part...

[autumnalequinox]

Okay so this isn't a bash against TAC-LS.  But I started a new career game, loaded the new rebuilt TAC (I used USI in my last one) and was just like...  "meh..."  

The containers contain too much LS for their size, the recyclers are too heavy, and modding the numbers is difficult with the huge strings involved.  Plus I was like "man now I miss hab and homesick, and the power consumption default is too low".

And in the end I just use "life support supplies" containers anyways, so having three seperate "things" doesn't mean a whole lot.  Plus I use UKS/MKS so it just seems like a feature loss on my part.

You won me over RoverDude.  After nearly 3 years, you won me over.

You'll have me forever when those stack-able greenhouses come out.

[RoverDude]

Glad you like it

[autumnalequinox]

On 6/10/2016 at 8:43 AM, RoverDude said:

Glad you like it

I would definitely recommend anyone who thought it seemed silly to give it a try.  I've posted some settings earlier in the thread for those who enjoy the "hardcoreness" of TAC to try with USI.  It's really easy to make it just as unforgiving, if not more so.  That was the only thing that kept me at bay originally.  So hats off to you for the suite of options.   

[cantab]

Well, I switched to USI-LS partly because TAC development looked a bit shaky.

But I'd say that USI-LS has developed to be much more complex and challenging than TAC ever was. With the wide array of possible penalties, the slightly-confusing "recycler" vs "converter" distinction, the habitation mechanic, the wear mechanic, the plan for radiation, and I believe the considerably higher baseline supply consumption rate, 'simple' isn't a description of USI-LS any more. TAC-LS is the simple easy mode one.

[tsaven]

It's taken USI-LS a bit to win me over, but I agree with @autumnalequinox and @cantab.  I started using TAC-LS because I prefer the added complexity of having to manage multiple resources, but after a few long missions with it I agree that it's got a lot of problems.  Aside from the parts being in dire need of a model update and spec balancing (WAY too heavy), the resource consumption rates were far too low for my tastes; I doubled them manually and that still didn't quite feel like enough.  That also threw a lot of the converters and scrubbers out of wack, and with a chronic lack of documentation it was hard to accurately plan requirements for a mission.

With USI-LS's additional mechanics to plan around, and now thanks to @sirreality we actually have good and clear documentation, USI-LS really does seem to be the best option.  And due to @RoverDudes seemingly never-ending plans for expansions and enhancements, I have no worries that it'll be supported for the foreseeable future.

I don't think USI-LS is perfect, and if I were king of the USI-niverse I would change a few structural things and do some re-balancing (Higher costs associated with planetary logistics, Akadamy should take 1 month per star increase rather than being an instant boost, nerf the Nom-O-Matics a bit because as it stands they're way over-powered, Urinite to EnrichedUranium should be closer to 1000:1 not 1:1). 

I would also really love more IVAs, because I'm kind of an RPGer and they're important to me.  But it's always been clear that they're super low priority and unless I'm willing to learn 3D modeling and put in the time to make them and push them to Roverdude, I don't think I've got room to complain. And KPBS fills a lot of that desire of mine for pretty greenhouses and living areas.

[sirreality]

1 hour ago, tsaven said:

now thanks to @sirreality we actually have good and clear documentation

 

Glad to be of help!  It was definitely one of these cases where I could see the elegance and great design in the code, but the wiki was just SO un-updated it was making it harder to use than it needed to be.  I'm still monitoring the wiki and the thread for any points of confusion I can clarify in the wiki, but have less time now that I recently graduated (that stethoscope in the avatar is no longer for show!) and am getting work.

[VaPaL]

@sirreality Congrats on your graduation man! Thanks for all your job in the wiki. I'd like to point out that Kontainers and Reactors are not linked in the Home page but I remember you posting a link to those pages.

Nothing major though, your job with the wiki was (is) awesome, thanks again!

[autumnalequinox]

On 6/10/2016 at 9:26 AM, cantab said:

Well, I switched to USI-LS partly because TAC development looked a bit shaky.

But I'd say that USI-LS has developed to be much more complex and challenging than TAC ever was. With the wide array of possible penalties, the slightly-confusing "recycler" vs "converter" distinction, the habitation mechanic, the wear mechanic, the plan for radiation, and I believe the considerably higher baseline supply consumption rate, 'simple' isn't a description of USI-LS any more. TAC-LS is the simple easy mode one.

 

On 6/10/2016 at 0:33 PM, tsaven said:

I don't think USI-LS is perfect, and if I were king of the USI-niverse I would change a few structural things and do some re-balancing (Higher costs associated with planetary logistics, Akadamy should take 1 month per star increase rather than being an instant boost, nerf the Nom-O-Matics a bit because as it stands they're way over-powered, Urinite to EnrichedUranium should be closer to 1000:1 not 1:1). 

I've also noticed it seems much easier to mod the mod, so to speak.  I'm thinking of tweaking some things for my personal use until the next version.  Since I use UKS as well I may require the noms to use water to nerf it a bit.  I'm also thinking of pushing them back in CTT and making my own part that works as a low efficiency recycler that can be attached anywhere (but draws crazy amounts of power).

Since I make supply loss deadly (and quick, like 5 minutes unless EVA) I'm also thinking of adding a module that puts some supplies in command pods (maybe a day's worth).  It's a bit off from the spirit of the mod but I don't think there's anything wrong with "borrowing" some concepts from TAC.  

[RoverDude]

FYI feel free to post ideas and such to Github

[panarchist]

11 hours ago, cantab said:

Well, I switched to USI-LS partly because TAC development looked a bit shaky.

But I'd say that USI-LS has developed to be much more complex and challenging than TAC ever was. With the wide array of possible penalties, the slightly-confusing "recycler" vs "converter" distinction, the habitation mechanic, the wear mechanic, the plan for radiation, and I believe the considerably higher baseline supply consumption rate, 'simple' isn't a description of USI-LS any more. TAC-LS is the simple easy mode one.

Ditto - and it's going to be even more potentially challenging if the "timer" on running out of electrical is 15 minutes instead of 15 days. (which I approve of - as an option if nothing else)

[sirreality]

On 6/10/2016 at 0:48 PM, VaPaL said:

@sirreality Congrats on your graduation man! Thanks for all your job in the wiki. I'd like to point out that Kontainers and Reactors are not linked in the Home page but I remember you posting a link to those pages.

Nothing major though, your job with the wiki was (is) awesome, thanks again!

...and fixed!  See, this is why feedback is good!  Well, at least when people know what they're talking about (*grumblesantivaxersgrumbles).

[MatterBeam]

@RoverDude

In USI-LS, Kerbals consume Supplies and produce Mulch. How can I add another resource to the list of what is being produced?