[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Alshain]

Just now, DStaal said:

They use EC, so you may want to conserve power for parts of your mission - especially if you don't always fully crew something.

Gotcha, thanks for the help to both of you.

[ExplorerKlatt]

8 hours ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

@Blackline I'm not seeing any bug. What is it that you think is wrong? 

The bug he is seeing is that all timers are green but Kerbal is still a tourist.  

[KerbMav]

This has probably been asked/mentioned before?

When the grace period has started (survival without resources) the supply counter shows 00:00:00 (+grace) for the active vessel, even if before a vessel switch the counter showed the remaining time before death.

 

[Blackline]

On 2.7.2017 at 7:57 PM, TheRagingIrishman said:

@Blackline I'm not seeing any bug. What is it that you think is wrong? 

My Kerbal being a tourist?

He was a scientist, food ran out, he became useless, so I restocked food. But he still was a tourist.

[danielboro]

19 minutes ago, Blackline said:

My Kerbal being a tourist?

He was a scientist, food ran out, he became useless, so I restocked food. But he still was a tourist.

im not sure running out of supply is reversible in orbit (need a mead bay+scientist?) i think only if recovered
hub defenatly is reversible in orbit

[Blackline]

6 hours ago, danielboro said:

im not sure running out of supply is reversible in orbit (need a mead bay+scientist?) i think only if recovered
hub defenatly is reversible in orbit

No MKS installed btw, so no medbays available.

[RoverDude]

6 hours ago, danielboro said:

im not sure running out of supply is reversible in orbit (need a mead bay+scientist?) i think only if recovered
hub defenatly is reversible in orbit

No, in theory just attaching supplies - if they went tourist due to supply loss - will revive them.  If this is NOT happening, then I need someone to get me a save as I cant repro this 

[KerbMav]

6 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

No, in theory just attaching supplies - if they went tourist due to supply loss - will revive them.  If this is NOT happening, then I need someone to get me a save as I cant repro this 

Would there be any expected problems when a supply-loss-induced tourist also faces a different shortage that would put him into a tourist state?

[Mihara]

I'm seeing some strange log spam:

[EXC 20:26:20.903] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleLifeSupportRecycler.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 20:26:20.904] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleHabitation.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()

This comes in spurts, and not unexpectedly, coincides with a significant drop in framerate while it lasts.

I'm not sure if I can produce a reproducible save and there could be hundreds of mod interactions, so there could be lots of reasons, but maybe this section of the code needs some more robust debug messaging... One particular interaction I'm suspecting might be involved is EditorTime: the slowdown is particularly prominent when I'm in the VAB, and its whole shtick is spinning time while you're there. The spurts do appear to start after I spend some time in the VAB while my vessels with life support are in the world. It never happens in the design sandbox save, which is free of running vessels.

[KerbMav]

12 minutes ago, Mihara said:

The spurts do appear to start after I spend some time in the VAB while my vessels with life support are in the world. It never happens in the design sandbox save, which is free of running vessels.

Do you use a mod to keep the game time running while in the VAB?

[Mihara]

Just now, KerbMav said:

Do you use a mod to keep the game time running while in the VAB?

...Wasn't that exactly what I said?

[KerbMav]

23 minutes ago, Mihara said:

...Wasn't that exactly what I said?

Oh - my sugery brain read it as you meaning you edited your post.

[RoverDude]

56 minutes ago, KerbMav said:

Would there be any expected problems when a supply-loss-induced tourist also faces a different shortage that would put him into a tourist state?

Yeah you would need to clear both conditions.

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Mihara said:

I'm seeing some strange log spam:

[EXC 20:26:20.903] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleLifeSupportRecycler.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 20:26:20.904] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleHabitation.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()

This comes in spurts, and not unexpectedly, coincides with a significant drop in framerate while it lasts.

I'm not sure if I can produce a reproducible save and there could be hundreds of mod interactions, so there could be lots of reasons, but maybe this section of the code needs some more robust debug messaging... One particular interaction I'm suspecting might be involved is EditorTime: the slowdown is particularly prominent when I'm in the VAB, and its whole shtick is spinning time while you're there. The spurts do appear to start after I spend some time in the VAB while my vessels with life support are in the world. It never happens in the design sandbox save, which is free of running vessels.

Remove EditorTime and see if it still occurs.

[Blackline]

2 hours ago, RoverDude said:

No, in theory just attaching supplies - if they went tourist due to supply loss - will revive them.  If this is NOT happening, then I need someone to get me a save as I cant repro this 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9E1ELqaaxtIc3hlbng1ZmZGc2c

in this save, you are in an ssto aproaching the starving scientist from about 500m away.

Heavily modded tho... But i THINK space-y, KW rocketry, realBattery and kerbal atomics are the only part-related mods you should need. Aside from USI-LS ofc :-)

Spoiler

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Blackline

[Mihara]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Remove EditorTime and see if it still occurs.

Did. As far as I can tell the problem no longer recurs.

This should be relatively easy to prevent, though, shouldn't it?

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, Mihara said:

Did. As far as I can tell the problem no longer recurs.

This should be relatively easy to prevent, though, shouldn't it?

Well, other than not using EditorTime, no.  There are a lot of assumptions made whether you are in flight or in the editor.

[Mihara]

45 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Well, other than not using EditorTime, no.  There are a lot of assumptions made whether you are in flight or in the editor.

Shouldn't just returning if active scene is editor without touching the last update time nix the problem, though?

[goldenpsp]

Just now, Mihara said:

Shouldn't just returning if active scene is editor without touching the last update time nix the problem, though?

Let us know.  @roverdude takes pull requests

[Mihara]

4 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Let us know.  @roverdude takes pull requests

I dearly wanted to avoid diving into KSP code again.

Well, upon reflection, no, it looks like the exception is thrown somewhere in KSP's base resource converter class, which means that the exception can probably be suppressed, but can't really be prevented, since the assumption in question is not made by accessible user code.

That's why we can't have nice things.

[shdwlrd]

8 hours ago, Mihara said:

I'm seeing some strange log spam:

[EXC 20:26:20.903] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleLifeSupportRecycler.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 20:26:20.904] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	USITools.ModuleResourceConverter_USI.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	LifeSupport.ModuleHabitation.PostProcess (ConverterResults result, Double deltaTime)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate ()

 

I'm getting the same NRE spam. I ran out of EC after starting the nom-o-matic 5000 and the rt5000. The spam starts as soon as I start building up EC again. It happens in this order.

Get into orbit. (Hyper Edit)

Start the nom-o-matic 5000 and rt5000.

Run out of power.

Open solar panels.

Start building EC.

Start NRE spam.

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, Mihara said:

I dearly wanted to avoid diving into KSP code again.

Well, upon reflection, no, it looks like the exception is thrown somewhere in KSP's base resource converter class, which means that the exception can probably be suppressed, but can't really be prevented, since the assumption in question is not made by accessible user code.

That's why we can't have nice things.

Except that converters are completely extensible (your log spam is one that I extended).  Point stands that it is a mod doing a bad / unexpected thing, not stock.  If you want to fiddle with it and send a PR (that breaks nothing else) then go for it

[Mihara]

On 7/5/2017 at 6:59 AM, RoverDude said:

Except that converters are completely extensible (your log spam is one that I extended).  Point stands that it is a mod doing a bad / unexpected thing, not stock.  If you want to fiddle with it and send a PR (that breaks nothing else) then go for it

Stock converters were one of those things I never dived into before -- actually, when I last abandoned KSP they didn't exist yet -- and I don't really want to start now, because I have a feeling this will turn into another session of running after everyone's code with a flyswatter trying to change something right after they did it.  

Anyway, since I'm here... I think the concept of habitation needs work. What exactly is it supposed to be, and how exactly does it cause homesickness? What exactly is homesickness, conceptually, and how exactly does it impair or kill a kerbal? Because here's a story...

So I have a large station around Minmus, and I'm trying to devise a crew transfer vehicle with the following properties:

• Must hold six kerbals, and be an automatic, pushbutton launch with no intermediate docking procedures. This is a chore, it's taking my time from other things to do around Minmus.
• Must be able to get there, and, which is important, return after a flyby if something happened, and for whatever reason they can't dock and resupply.
• Must be able to land safely without complicated manual procedures like landing an aircraft, because I suck at those.

The limiting factor on this turns out to be hab, not supplies, because it's easy enough to stock enough supplies and/or recyclers to make them last 15 days, and there's the 15-day grace period anyway, a 20-day endurance on supplies is trivial. But habitation in a pod runs out after 7 days with the default settings -- and not a month as the documentation seems to say (and for the record, NASA's Orion is apparently supposed to have 21 days endurance, which obviously includes habitation requirements) -- often leaving them hours of hab left before they dock, and leaving no margin of error for the return trip. I've found multiple solutions for keeping six kerbals in one pod, but none of them have habitation bonuses, and upon reflection most of them probably shouldn't, being, well, descent capsules.

So I have to pack a hab module, and the most mass and cost effective solution is usually one or another variation on the hitchhiker can. Which don't exactly make for an easy automatic landing, so they need to be decoupled. They also complicate launch escape systems, not to mention that they tend to look rather ugly. They also tend to result in far more hab than this vehicle could possibly need, and stacking up observation cupolas to get just the right amount produces really ugly, not to mention part-heavy vehicles. I've spent a few days tuning such a vehicle with varying results, but here's an anecdote about one of the versions:

The trip to Minmus proceeds normally, they burn for aerobraking, and it so happens that the descent module enters Kerbin's atmosphere right at the edge of dawn. I decouple everything below the heatshield, and that's exactly the moment the crew refuses to work. Due to homesickness. Literally when they can't possibly go anywhere but home, anymore. I'm not sure if that's the hab sucking out the remaining batteries in seconds, or the number of parts changing triggering a recomputation, but the pod with the hitchhiker can (because I tried to be optimal and packed six kerbals in six seats, four of them being the hitchhiker) has no one at the controls and is flying through the air sideways.

The vehicle has remote control as a matter of policy, but because there's still no batteries, and because I just decoupled the solar panels, I can't turn them heatshield first. They return to duty at 25km altitude, moments before the vehicle burns up in the atmosphere.

I obviously can just turn up the base habitation multiplier, but -- why did you balance it this way, and not some other way?

P.S. Possibly, homesickness should also have a grace period the way supplies do, so that given an unprepared pod, by default, a kerbal would be disabled by lack of supplies and homesickness simultaneously...

[RoverDude]

To be honest, sounds like it is working as designed.  Send less kerbals.

[Mihara]

13 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

To be honest, sounds like it is working as designed.  Send less kerbals.

• Why is it designed so that kerbals can refuse to control their capsule during reentry, due to being homesick?  Because that's what killed them, before the loss of power they had 30+ days of habitation remaining.
• What's the point of the 15 day grace period on supplies, then?