[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[jofwu]

23 hours ago, PocketBrotector said:

The new infographics, and all of the questions they provoked on the subreddit, has inspired me to make a tutorial/example. 

Most of the USI-LS documentation is currently on the UKS wiki. I wanted to make a relatively straightforward demonstration that incorporated all the USI-LS concepts but without using any UKS parts (to keep it simple for new users). So this new document is on the (otherwise empty) USI-LS wiki.

PocketBrotector, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this. I've wanted to get into USI-LS for quite some time, but UKS isn't quite my style... And it's incredibly difficult to find information JUST pertaining to USI-LS. Your example helped me to wrap my mind around it perfectly.

I think I spotted a math error... Under "Converters" you calculated the amount of fertilizer (2.385t) based on the total mass calculated in the previous section (20.267t). But if I'm not mistaken, you should have only used 16.767t for the calculation. It seems like you included the mass of the lab in the fertilizer calculation.

A few questions, if you or someone else doesn't mind... Well... a lot of questions:

1) If converters are turned on, do they constantly consume EC? Or only when they are actively converting Mulch? In other words, if you have no Mulch or Fertilizer available, do they still consume EC when on?

2) Is Mulch stored somewhere? Or is it just a "ficticious" resource that instantly disappears unless you have a Converter on?

3) How do Kerbals work when on EVA? I assume they consume at the normal rate and don't get the Recycler bonus? And I assume that all Mulch is lost? How does EC work? Do they take Supplies and/or EC from the ship, or do they simply not need/use supplies when out and about?

4) It sounds like the Lab is the only stock part changed by USI-LS. Is this correct? I saw your configs for other stock and mod parts. Will these work smoothly with just USI-LS? Seems like they might have some MKS things included, which I figure I would prefer to remove from them before using.

5) Do ALL seats provide 1 kerbal month of habitation? Or just Hitchhiker seats?

6) How does Habitation work for a relatively permanent base? Assuming USI-LS only, no MKS. Does going on EVA reset them or something? Do you have to rotate in fresh Kerbals?

7) It looks like the other Converter doesn't require fertilizer? It just let's you redeem half your Mulch for Supplies?

8) Are the numbers/rates for all of these parts posted somewhere? Not seeing it all in the game, unless I'm missing something.

9) Parts... There are three in-line Supplies tanks, side-mounted tanks for Supplies, Mulch, and Fertilizer. And there's the two Nom-O-Matic converters. Then the Lab, the Hitchhiker, and the Cupola have been modified. Any other new parts or changes to stock parts?

[PocketBrotector]

19 minutes ago, jofwu said:

PocketBrotector, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this. I've wanted to get into USI-LS for quite some time, but UKS isn't quite my style... And it's incredibly difficult to find information JUST pertaining to USI-LS. Your example helped me to wrap my mind around it perfectly.

I think I spotted a math error... Under "Converters" you calculated the amount of fertilizer (2.385t) based on the total mass calculated in the previous section (20.267t). But if I'm not mistaken, you should have only used 16.767t for the calculation. It seems like you included the mass of the lab in the fertilizer calculation.

No problem, glad it's helpful. Thanks for pointing out that error.

20 minutes ago, jofwu said:

1) If converters are turned on, do they constantly consume EC? Or only when they are actively converting Mulch? In other words, if you have no Mulch or Fertilizer available, do they still consume EC when on?

I believe that recyclers consume EC constantly, but converters should not consume EC unless they have all the necessary input resources - like how an ISRU converter shouldn't consume electricity when there's no Ore.

21 minutes ago, jofwu said:

2) Is Mulch stored somewhere? Or is it just a "ficticious" resource that instantly disappears unless you have a Converter on?

Mulch is stored like any other resource. There's a little bit of Mulch storage in each of the inline canisters for Supplies, and there's a dedicated Mulch radial pack. (If you really need to store a whole lot of life support resources, UKS has an inflatable storage module that can store an enormous amount of Supplies, Fertilizer, and Mulch.)

23 minutes ago, jofwu said:

3) How do Kerbals work when on EVA? I assume they consume at the normal rate and don't get the Recycler bonus? And I assume that all Mulch is lost? How does EC work? Do they take Supplies and/or EC from the ship, or do they simply not need/use supplies when out and about?

EVA kerbals don't have access to Supplies or EC, I believe - they instead get an "EVA timer" (six hours by default), and if that runs out they suffer the "EVAEffects" specified in the settings config (they turn into tourists by default).

26 minutes ago, jofwu said:

4) It sounds like the Lab is the only stock part changed by USI-LS. Is this correct? I saw your configs for other stock and mod parts. Will these work smoothly with just USI-LS? Seems like they might have some MKS things included, which I figure I would prefer to remove from them before using.

The Lab gets the recycler, the Hitchhiker Can gets habitat space, and the Cupola gets the habitat multiplier - those are all of the modifications to stock parts. The configs that I made should work fine with just USI-LS. Additional disclaimer here, though - I made them mostly for personal use, so while they are mostly balanced conservatively using the guidelines in LSModule.cfg, folks might disagree with a few of the judgment calls I made (e.g. including recyclers in certain command pods.)

31 minutes ago, jofwu said:

5) Do ALL seats provide 1 kerbal month of habitation? Or just Hitchhiker seats?

Each seat on a vessel effectively provides one kerbal-month (thirty kerbal-days) of habitation. The hitchhiker can (and other parts, if you're using UKS or additional configs) provide additional kerbal-months. Then hab multipliers (e.g. cupola) are applied.

33 minutes ago, jofwu said:

6) How does Habitation work for a relatively permanent base? Assuming USI-LS only, no MKS. Does going on EVA reset them or something? Do you have to rotate in fresh Kerbals?

You'll need to rotate crews out periodically. Probably not a big issue for a station around Minmus, but you'll want a Duna base to have enough hab time to last between transfer windows, for example.

37 minutes ago, jofwu said:

7) It looks like the other Converter doesn't require fertilizer? It just let's you redeem half your Mulch for Supplies?

This has changed, both nom-o-matics should be similar now. Check your version, may need to update

38 minutes ago, jofwu said:

8) Are the numbers/rates for all of these parts posted somewhere? Not seeing it all in the game, unless I'm missing something.

Not really; I made a github issue requesting that it be made visible per-part in the VAB. You can check the per-vessel numbers in the life support window, either in the editor or in flight, to see your current status and an estimate or remaining time.

41 minutes ago, jofwu said:

9) Parts... There are three in-line Supplies tanks, side-mounted tanks for Supplies, Mulch, and Fertilizer. And there's the two Nom-O-Matic converters. Then the Lab, the Hitchhiker, and the Cupola have been modified. Any other new parts or changes to stock parts?

That's it

[RoverDude]

7 hours ago, Gribbleshnibit8 said:

Personally I'd prefer to see a reworking of the resource density instead of resources used, in order to keep resource units used perday at 1. It makes eyeballing the amounts needed easier IMO. Unless I'm missing something.

Already covered, but we stick to 1L units for a lot of reasons in CRP (and in general for sanity!)  By the way, the number was chosen because it's nice and round at 0.00075 per second

6 hours ago, Bloody_looser said:

Well, I've missed several versions of USI LS and stuff have changed.

 

In the recent version kerbals seem to munch through supplies like some fatso through whoppers in BK. My Supplies backpack keeps them entertained for like a day only.

So, interplanetary is currently impossible or I'm missing something?

Very possible - looks like folks pointed you in the right direction with the various examples

[Gribbleshnibit8]

8 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Already covered, but we stick to 1L units for a lot of reasons in CRP (and in general for sanity!)  By the way, the number was chosen because it's nice and round at 0.00075 per second

Yeah, I figured that when I saw it. I looked and looked for a number that made pretry in-gsme values but the config value was awful! I'll just learn to use the window.

[Pthigrivi]

Hello all

So first wanted to say I've been playing around with this a little since the update and Im really digging some of the changes. The trade-offs are working pretty nicely overall and the experience is certainly challenging and fun. Just a few thoughts, forgive me if these have come up already.

1) I know this is largely designed to integrate with MKS but it might be nice for folks just using LS to have some way of making a vessel indefinitely supportable for interplanetary bases and such. Would it break things to allow the Convert-o-tron 250 to directly produce fertilizer?

2) I may be missing something but for very long missions without Kontainers I'm finding I have to add a LOT of fertilizer. The weight trade off makes sense, but could we get larger fertilizer containers as part of the USI LS package to cut on part count and make transfers easier?

3) Does it make sense to provide recyclers as a separate part? There should still be weight and energy trade-offs, but it might provide a bit more design flexibility. 

4) I'm being really, crazy nit-picky but I get this little twitch when I see "mulch". I get what you mean and its a fun word but "compost" would be the right term. Horticulturally mulch is usually nutrient poor and is mainly used to suppress weeds. Some mulches have nutrients added that seep seep down into the soil over time, but this isn't its primary function. Forgive me. Im a gardening geek.

 

[RoverDude]

4 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Hello all

So first wanted to say I've been playing around with this a little since the update and Im really digging some of the changes. The trade-offs are working pretty nicely overall and the experience is certainly challenging and fun. Just a few thoughts, forgive me if these have come up already.

1) I know this is largely designed to integrate with MKS but it might be nice for folks just using LS to have some way of making a vessel indefinitely supportable for interplanetary bases and such. Would it break things to allow the Convert-o-tron 250 to directly produce fertilizer?

2) I may be missing something but for very long missions without Kontainers I'm finding I have to add a LOT of fertilizer. The weight trade off makes sense, but could we get larger fertilizer containers as part of the USI LS package to cut on part count and make transfers easier?

3) Does it make sense to provide recyclers as a separate part? There should still be weight and energy trade-offs, but it might provide a bit more design flexibility. 

4) I'm being really, crazy nit-picky but I get this little twitch when I see "mulch". I get what you mean and its a fun word but "compost" would be the right term. Horticulturally mulch is usually nutrient poor and is mainly used to suppress weeds. Some mulches have nutrients added that seep seep down into the soil over time, but this isn't its primary function. Forgive me. Im a gardening geek.

 

1.  No reason why not, given you get gypsum production early on.  

2.  You are using a lab for recycling right?  Maybe grab USI core for the containers

3.  Stock sci lab does this, as do a lot of parts in my mods, but wanted to keep part count for USI LS low

4.  It's more than food tho

 

[shmameron]

On 2/10/2016 at 9:36 PM, Alinor said:

I have made number of changes to Resources.cfg, specifically reducing the cost of supplies.

Today I updated the USI LS addon and installed USI Kolonization package. I am not sure which one had this effect, but changes I make in resources.cfg in UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport folder do not seem to have any effect on price of supplies.

If fact I deleted the resources.cfg and was able to boot the game(after initial crash) and cost of supplies is still 15 per unit. This tells me, there is another file in USI package that governs these settings.

Cost of supplies at default 15 makes career mode unbearably difficult for me, and many contracts come out as financial loss. It's hard to deal with 900k price-tag for just for supplies during 3 year mission, when multiple launch vehicles for the entire mission only cost 400k.

I greatly appropriate any help,

Solution

After looking around in USI folder I found that Kolonization addon has its own resources settings that take precedence over life support. File is located at UmbraSpaceIndustries/Kolonization/MKS_Resources.cfg

I also had this problem, but I wasn't using MKS (hence no Kolonization folder). Turns out, there's also a config for it in CommunityResourcePack/CommonResources.cfg which will overwrite the one in the LifeSupport folder.

[Kobymaru]

Hey RoverDude, did you have some time to look into the issue with the non functioning life support recyclers? I wanted to launch my Kolony ship, but broken recyclers make things a lot harder on the supplies front

https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/issues/76

 

Edit, I might have found something. I might be able to cook up a pull request to fix the issues.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Kobymaru

[Vladthemad]

I have a problem. I brought back some unfed kerbals, and they've remained tourists ever since. Any way to undo this?

[Groovemeister]

Hi guys, i keep getting an issue where the life support status window doesn't display any information. the window itself displays, but seems to flicker. Has anyone else experienced this?

Edit: Nevermind!! I missed updating the usi tools folder, all working now!

Edited February 20, 2016 by Groovemeister

[Kowgan]

@Vladthemad
1. Make sure you don't have your save open at KSP, and backup your save file;
2. Open your save file, look for the tourist kerbals in two sections:
   a. LifeSupportScenario. Set IsGrouchy to false. Set OldTrait to the correct kerbal trait (Pilot, Scientist, Engineer).
   b. ROSTER { KERBAL. Set Type to Crew. Set Trait to the correct kerbal trait.

Save the file and open your save. I hope this helps.

[Vladthemad]

2 hours ago, Kowgan said:

@Vladthemad
1. Make sure you don't have your save open at KSP, and backup your save file;
2. Open your save file, look for the tourist kerbals in two sections:
   a. LifeSupportScenario. Set IsGrouchy to false. Set OldTrait to the correct kerbal trait (Pilot, Scientist, Engineer).
   b. ROSTER { KERBAL. Set Type to Crew. Set Trait to the correct kerbal trait.

Save the file and open your save. I hope this helps.

Yeah, after some more digging I found someone pointing out Roster, and went down and changed them to their proper jobs. Didn't go into the Life support scenario file though, I'll have to double check that. So there's no way to fix in that in game?

[Kaa253]

9 hours ago, Vladthemad said:

I have a problem. I brought back some unfed kerbals, and they've remained tourists ever since. Any way to undo this?

This just happened to me too. Two kerbals returned to the runway and still staying as tourists. IsGrouchy state was false (correct?). OldTrait was equal to Tourist (this should not happen?). Type and Trait were both in state Tourist. Fixed by editing quicksave file as per above method.

Oh, in case it is relevant, they did not run out of supplies. I think they may have run out of EC but when they went grumpy the LS status reported they had negative hab values.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Kaa253

[RoverDude]

If you can do me a favor and send me a save file where this has happened that would help me troubleshoot it

 

[Vladthemad]

7 hours ago, RoverDude said:

If you can do me a favor and send me a save file where this has happened that would help me troubleshoot it

 

I don't have a save as I've already edited it to fix it, but it's probably easy to reproduce. It happened due to the fact that after they went "grouchy", I just used the probe core I had attached to the return vehicle to bring them back home. So they never returned to being normal prior to ship recovery, and became permatourists.

[RoverDude]

They should have gone into a non-tourist state during reentry....

[Kowgan]

It happened to me once, with some crew that was already in space by the time I updated to 0.3.*. I'm assuming it's something related to updating the old crew to the new system, until this is proven wrong (like if it happens again, to a new crew).

[Vladthemad]

4 hours ago, RoverDude said:

They should have gone into a non-tourist state during reentry....

Well tell THEM that....hah. Let me stick someone into space and give it a test.

Edit: Welp, during the test Jeb was returned for duty on reentry. Don't know what I did to accomplish that *not* happening last time. I'll pay more attention if it should happen again to exact details. Come to think of it, I brought back two sets of three kerbals after running out of supplies from that station. Only one set of three didn't return to duty. So chances are it was probably some nonsense I did that caused it.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Vladthemad

[mikegarrison]

When I have a ship with a science lab and it's doing life support recycling, any time I move the focus away from that ship and then come back the life support status reads "inactive". But the switch is still on. If I turn the switch off and then turn it on again, then the life support status switches to "operative".

Is this just a display bug, or is this an actual problem?

7 hours ago, Vladthemad said:

Well tell THEM that....hah. Let me stick someone into space and give it a test.

Edit: Welp, during the test Jeb was returned for duty on reentry. Don't know what I did to accomplish that *not* happening last time. I'll pay more attention if it should happen again to exact details. Come to think of it, I brought back two sets of three kerbals after running out of supplies from that station. Only one set of three didn't return to duty. So chances are it was probably some nonsense I did that caused it.

Were they in different capsules? Perhaps it has to do with which capsule they were in.

[Coga19000]

On 4/27/2015 at 8:42 PM, prog said:

Let me copy my comment from WIP thread

I know this is a very old comment, but I found a nifty trick to salvage such a situation: allow your Kerbals to leave the ship with no Life Support on their person, then make them start ferrying supplies from the containers to the living quarters.

[Cawdeen]

Maybe someone has run into issue before? 

I am using LS and Kolonization together. I have a large ship with ample supplies, leave for Gilly with 4 kerbals. When I get to Gilly, I put three happy kerbals into a lander and undock. The undocked lander doesnt show up in the LS status box. If I go to the space center, then reload the lander, the supplies very rapidly go down until there is non left, and it appears the number in the red is the amount of time the kerbals have been off Kerbin. It looks as if they have been without supplies for the entire mission.

[mikegarrison]

I'm getting the impression (without actually looking at the code) that the way these timers work is by tracking the history of the ships, not the history of the kerbals. That makes them subject to a lot of stock funkiness with respect to docking, undocking, going on eva, getting unfocused, etc.

[jofwu]

Question/Problem:

When I activate the Nom-O-Matic my "Supplies Remaining" time in the USI-LS window doesn't change (compared to what it was with agroponics turned off). I'm certain that I've got everything set up right, and it *does* seem to be operating properly. The time remaining stays constant, since the supplies are constantly being refilled. Is this how the window is supposed to work? Or is it supposed to look up how much fertilizer I have and calculate how much time I have with agroponics on? It certainly would be nice if it could do this... But anyways, I just wanted to make sure that I'm not running into a bug I suppose.

[MatterBeam]

What would I have to do to make kerbals consume exactly 5kg per human day?

[mcortez]

11 minutes ago, MatterBeam said:

What would I have to do to make kerbals consume exactly 5kg per human day?

Assuming you are using USI-LS only and not MKS, and are using no recyclers or other mechanisms to reduce your supply needs and want to do this by changing the configuration of USI-LS, then you need to calculate the units of supplies to be used per in-game second and modify the Settings.cfg file.

Everything is measured in, in-game seconds.  So assuming a human day was 24 game hours, made up of 60 minute game hours, and 60 second game minutes, and assuming Supplies are 1kg per unit (would have to check the resource definition to be sure) that would be...

5 / (25 * 60 * 60) == .0000555

The config file is located at UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg

SupplyAmount = 0000555

-=-

If however you are looking to actually use parts provided by USI-LS and MKS to reduce supply usage to 5kg per day, you're going to have to experiment with the various recyclers and conversion parts to find a happy balance that produces that result.