New Mobile Processing Lab mechanics

[haltux]

They are only overpowered if you use them in an overpowered way. I'm finding them to be quite slow, personally, as I'm not spamming them at the game then time warping a year or 2 ahead. I've got them out there orbiting Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus, slowly generating science, while I do more interesting things, like exploring, contracts, etc. I rarely warp more than a day or 2 ahead at a time. For missions that take weeks or months, I launch those, set an alarm, and do other missions while they slowly proceed. With that play style, any nerf to the labs would make them unbearably slow to the point of not being worth the launch cost and fuel to take them somewhere.

Basically, I'm playing the game in fast real time, not 10 minutes of stuff then warp massively ahead for the next 10 minutes of stuff, and the lab seems slow but very balanced for that. I've got a couple of solar orbit missions that are something like 100-ish game time days into the future for their next alarm, it may be several real weeks before those alarms are reached, or certainly a good few days, and I'm doing lots of local missions and planning and setting up other remote missions while those slowly plod ahead.

Sounds great, but KSP makes your life harder when you want to do that:

- No incentive to do parallel missions (just having some maitnenance cost would make sense)

- No stock "alarm"

- No more than 7 Kerbals in level 1 and 2

- No flight planning tool that would help you to decide when to launch a mission to some given planet in order to minimize time or fuel.

- And the worst : strong incentive in using always the same Kerbals: XP points.

So theway the gameplay has been though is to do missions one by one. And if you do missions one by one, it is likely that every mission to Jool or Moho or wherever is far away will bring you much less science points that your Minmus orbital lab with a one star scientist just during the time of the mission. Therefore I still think MPL is overpowered.

Edited May 19, 2015 by haltux

[Murph]

Sounds great, but KSP makes your life harder when you want to do that:

- No incentive to do parallel missions (just having some maitnenance cost would make sense)

- No stock "alarm"

- No more than 7 Kerbals in level 1 and 2

- And the worst : strong incentive in using always the same Kerbals: XP points.

So theway the gameplay has been though is to do missions one by one. And if you do missions one by one, it is likely that every mission to Jool or Moho or wherever is far away will bring you much less science points that your Minmus orbital lab with a one star scientist just during the time of the mission. Therefore I still think MPL is overpowered.

Who needs an incentive to do parallel missions? It's an obvious thing to do, and much more fun and interesting than single mission at a time. The game should not have to give you any incentive to running parallel missions.

While the game absolutely should have a stock alarm, your argument that the lack of one preventing you doing anything else over 100+ day trips to other planets is nonsense and entirely invalid. Long missions like that don't even need an alarm. You can just check on them in the tracking station occasionally, it only takes a couple of seconds, then back to playing around with local missions, experimenting with different craft designs, planning and launching more remote missions. Apart from all that, the mod alarm is simple, reliable, and there's just no good reason not to have it installed. When one of your long range missions gets close to destination, stop doing other stuff in an orderly fashion, and warp ahead just a few hours or a day, so you don't miss an important moment with it.

By the time you're ready to send off missions outside the local system, you should have basic probe cores available, so the limit on kerbals isn't a problem. It's also not 7 in levels 1 and 2; level 2 is 12. If you're flying plenty of the better local contract missions, cash isn't a problem to upgrade the astronaut complex anyway.

XP points are not a problem, you can get to level 3 without really leaving Kerbin. Mun, Minimus, and very briefly popping out into solar orbit before immediately dropping back into Kerbin's SoI gets you that. You don't actually need more than level 3 for anything important, just a little extra science bonus. To be honest, the only kerbals that it's important to skill up are the engineers. Low skill pilots can be supplemented by a probe core, all they really need is basic level 1 SAS, and the extra functions are not hard to do by hand. Most simple contract missions don't get any benefit or advantage from having a higher skilled engineer. Low skill scientists, no big deal really (but yeah, preferable to upgrade them when opportunity becomes available). And, apart from all that, the greater majority of my local missions are flown by a probe core with 0 crew at launch. You're claiming that's the "worst" issue, I actually see it as the most ridiculously irrelevant issue, to be honest.

So, to sum it up, I do not see a single valid argument in your case that it's not reasonable to do many other things while your long missions slowly plod through solar orbit, and to have many different missions flying in solar orbit simultaneously (with a little sensible planning to ensure that there's reasonable gaps between arrival times at destinations).

Edited May 19, 2015 by Murph

[Laie]

If you don't want to bother doing science the interesting way, just don't do it. If you don't abuse the lab, there is no balance issue with it, it's actually very slow, to the point of only narrowly avoiding being frustratingly slow.

Yes, the lab is slow. But judging from my current career, it should be possible to get 1000-1500 science points from a lab before the first transfer window to Duna comes up. That equals, what? Strip-mining two or three Munar biomes, or something on that order. If you care about calendar dates, the lab actually is quite balanced.

[haltux]

So, to sum it up, I do not see a single valid argument in your case that it's not reasonable to do many other things while your long missions slowly plod through solar orbit, and to have many different missions flying in solar orbit simultaneously (with a little sensible planning to ensure that there's reasonable gaps between arrival times at destinations).

If the most obvious (in terms of how you play the game when you still don't know it) AND efficient (in terms of career advancement vs. player time spent) way to play the game makes MPL overpowered, then MPL is overpowered, it is not more complicated than that.

I acknowledge the fact that pressing fast forward during years without active missions until MPL has finished his job is a wrong way to play the game, but if your Minmus lab has generated more science than your Jool mission during the 2 or 3 hours you spent playing your Jool mission, then something is broken. I don't understand why it is so hard to admit.

And by the way, you say you use mainly probe cores, do you think as well that the ridiculous amount of science points that probe cores can generate is fairly balanced as well ?

[Murph]

If the most obvious (in terms of how you play the game when you still don't know it) AND efficient (in terms of career advancement vs. player time spent) way to play the game makes MPL overpowered, then MPL is overpowered, it is not more complicated than that.

I acknowledge the fact that pressing fast forward during years without active missions until MPL has finished his job is a wrong way to play the game, but if your Minmus lab has generated more science than your Jool mission during the 2 or 3 hours you spent playing your Jool mission, then something is broken. I don't understand why it is so hard to admit.

If you focussed solely on your Jool mission, ignoring the lab, then the lab would generate a maximum of 500 science during that mission, and you should be bringing far more than that back from Jool.

It's hard to admit, because I think that you are completely wrong about it. The lab is well balanced right now; if it was changed to fit your scenario, it would be unusable and irrelevant to many people. It is absolutely not overpowered because it is slow to generate science unless you quite deliberately and artificially fast forward for years at a time, but very deliberately stopping at reasonably optimal intervals to swap to the lab to transmit generated science and load more data. I literally would abandon use of the lab as completely useless and broken, if it was significantly lower yield per game day than it is right now, at least until late game, where I might then put one up for the hell of it. It simply would no longer be worth the resources used to launch it if nerfed significantly below the current level.

In terms of balancing the lab, your suggested play style is quite unreasonable. Playing in fast real time, only fast forwarding a max of about 1–2 days, maybe a week occasionally, between doing significant things (i.e. not just lab button pressing) is the obvious reasonable play style to balance it against. The lab needs to generate science during time warp, even during fast time warp, and the existing controls of diminishing research rate and capped output unless actively managed are more than sufficient.

If there's to be any change here, it should only be to penalise your unreasonable play style.

And by the way, you say you use mainly probe cores, do you think as well that the ridiculous amount of science points that probe cores can generate is fairly balanced as well ?

Yes, I don't see any problem at all with science points generated via probes. There's no balance problem with science and probes.

In many ways, you're talking about science points as if they are the entire game. Unlocking the tech tree is the start of the game only, it's something to get out of the way before moving on to the real main game of exploring the Kerbol solar system. During the main game, science points are just a side activity to generate a little extra cash. To me, the game is a case of getting past the initial hurdles of learning how to travel in space, then unlocking the tech tree mostly from within the local Kerbin system, then exploring the larger Kerbol solar system, but without exact boundaries between those phases. It's quite reasonable for them to overlap, but fundamentally unlocking the tech tree comes before you've done significant exploration.

To me, the balance of science between Kerbin system orbital labs and a Jool mission is entirely irrelevant, as the entire tech tree is unlocked long before you reach Jool. Following the game's hinted progression (hinted via contracts offered), you'll be finishing the tech tree via the Duna system, if you don't choose to mostly focus on Mun and Minimus in the early game. Jool won't be relevant until much later in the game.

[haltux]

If there's to be any change here, it should only be to penalise your unreasonable play style.

It is not about my play style it is about the play style that can be expected, with a little bit of common sense, from people who do career mode for the first time. KSP is a trial and error game, I can't imagine people sending ten rockets at the same time before realizing they forgot power source or communication device in all of them.

Anyway, you won't be convinced anyway and that is not a major problem.

What I would suggest would not be to make MPL slower or even less efficient, but that some kind of support would be required for the MPL to work during long periods. For example, scientists should be replaced after a given amount of time spent in space, for example one year, just like in real life.

Yes, I don't see any problem at all with science points generated via probes. There's no balance problem with science and probes.

In real life, 1 $ invested in space exploration with probes brings you way more "science points" than 1$ invested in space exploration with human being. In KSP it is the opposite. That's the problem. And in real life probe take photos, too. And analyze samples.

[SanderB]

The reason we don't have more science beyond earth its orbit with astronauts is because we need a lot of different foods to stay healthy, and the food doesn't stay fresh for long enough. If we could produce a balanced diet off-world in a closed loop (without needing extra supplies from earth), we'd have at least a few explorers much farther out than low earth orbit. The difference in this regard between off-earth science and stock KSP is that kerbals don't by default need any life support, at all. People would be better in space, but probes and rovers are a lot simpler or less costly until we properly colonize space, not just visit it.

[mrklaw]

I just put my first lab on minmus, and have a few questions.

- it gets filled with 500 science very quickly, but only produces 0.49 per day. How much does the XP of the scientists affect that? Both my scientists are 1* only at the moment - if I can get both to 2*, what happens to my 0.49/day?

- I want to go biome hopping and grabbing lots'to'science. But the lab is already full, and I want to return the science to kerbin to start unlocking more stuff. how do I best handle that?

- do I only need the two scientists? I have a pilot in an attached cupola, but not sure if I can return him to kerbin and the lab will continue functioning.

[StrandedonEarth]

Your craft will need to be piloted, either by a manned command pod or a probe core.

[Shrike99]

Stuff you folks probably care about:

• Scientists matter - the more stars the better.
  
• You can plunk data in even if you have no more normal science to gain (otherwise it would limit what you could use based on when you got the lab unlocked).
  
• You get a data bonus if you are on the ground vs orbit.
  
• You get a data bonus if the lab is in/around the same body the science came from
  
• Science rate is based on scientists and how much data you have.
  
• It has a long tail! But anticipate about 5 science per data.
  
• Each lab can, in it's lifetime, research only one copy of any single unique experiment result. Goo at the poles and Goo over the grasslands are two different results.
  
• You can put an experiment in as many labs as you like
  

So if i am processing returned samples from, say Duna and Ike, What would the best place to process them near Kerbin be?

Since the samples are from Duna/Ike, there is no bonus for being around the same body, but is there a difference Kerbin/Minmus/Mun orbit?

And i presume that being landed on Minmus/Mun is better than orbiting any of the three?

[juanml82]

The reason we don't have more science beyond earth its orbit with astronauts is because we need a lot of different foods to stay healthy, and the food doesn't stay fresh for long enough. If we could produce a balanced diet off-world in a closed loop (without needing extra supplies from earth), we'd have at least a few explorers much farther out than low earth orbit. The difference in this regard between off-earth science and stock KSP is that kerbals don't by default need any life support, at all. People would be better in space, but probes and rovers are a lot simpler or less costly until we properly colonize space, not just visit it.

Actually, radiation begins to kick in for long missions beyond LEO. Send astronauts to Mars and once they return, you have to retire them because of all the radiation their bodies absorbed through the mission.

[RoverDude]

So if i am processing returned samples from, say Duna and Ike, What would the best place to process them near Kerbin be?

Since the samples are from Duna/Ike, there is no bonus for being around the same body, but is there a difference Kerbin/Minmus/Mun orbit?

And i presume that being landed on Minmus/Mun is better than orbiting any of the three?

Actually there is. If you have samples from Duna - feed them to a lab around Duna, etc. - there is a specific bonus for feeding data into a lab in the same SOI the data came from.

[Deimos_F]

But are you absolutely sure that the amount of science influences the conversion speed?

Does the conversion speed change with changing level of crew? Maybe the scientist level bonus is not accounted for in the display?

What I know was what I read in the MPL's confing file. The module's code probably has all the answers but I have no idea how to analyze it.

[RoverDude]

The amount of data affects the conversion speed (you have a very long tail), the amount of science is irrelevant (it's just a cap).

[DarkGravity]

I would just like to thank everyone who has made this amazing thread. I can't tell you how many searches I have done in the wiki, on steam and here. Until now, only confusion in my head. You guys rock. Excuse me, make that: You guys litho!

[Shrike99]

Actually there is. If you have samples from Duna - feed them to a lab around Duna, etc. - there is a specific bonus for feeding data into a lab in the same SOI the data came from.

Yeah, i got that, i didn't phrase it clearly enough.To reiterate:

Since the samples are from ike/duna, my lab, which is not around ike/duna, will get no bonus for being around ike/duna.

What i was asking was if there is any point in having a lab that is not orbiting ike/duna orbit Minmus/the Mun instead of kerbin?

[RoverDude]

Surface is better (except for Kerbin)

[Alshain]

Surface is better (except for Kerbin)

I wondered about that. I had to rescue a Kerbal from a orbital science lab, and I was curious if I could re-use the thing if I grabbed it, it's just sitting there in orbit and they are so heavy I figured lifting a Klaw is cheaper than lifting the lab. So for Kerbin it's better to be in orbit, but would surface data or orbital data be better?

Edited May 24, 2015 by Alshain

[RoverDude]

In general surface is better but there's a specific penalty for doing science on Kerbin's surface (you would learn more about space in orbit or on another planet than at the local park)

[Alshain]

In general surface is better but there's a specific penalty for doing science on Kerbin's surface (you would learn more about space in orbit or on another planet than at the local park)

Ok, makes sense. Now I have a new mission to plan

[FancyMouse]

Do we have exponential long tail simply because the data->science rate is linear to the existing data amount?

[RoverDude]

Correct

[Alshain]

Well if you are curious to know how it went. I built a solar/battery assembly with a claw and got it up there, I gathered science the whole way up. Realized I forgot RCS so I had to dock.... forcefully. It's not pretty but 206 data seems to net me 1/2 a science point a day (the 2 scientists have no stars). Yeah, this isn't that great but since it was my first attempt at this new mechanic, it was worth it just to learn how it works.

EDIT: Oops, not even half, 500ths. ROFL

Edited May 24, 2015 by Alshain

[DarkGravity]

I'm having a lil difficulty. I have a ship in orbit of Minimus. I just launched a MPL with 2 scientists on board. They have 5k electricity and an antenna and are in orbit of Kerbin. For my first ever MPL activity, I wanted to receive one report from Minimus and process it. Wiki says to right click the pod with the report and choose review data. I right clicked the pod, then "review stored data," which I figured was close enough. But then the wiki says to select the "process data" option. But I don't SEE that option! Just the same 3 options as always: discard, keep or transmit.

The lab has its antenna deployed. What am I missing? I just want to process one report to verify this works!

[Murph]

I'm having a lil difficulty. I have a ship in orbit of Minimus. I just launched a MPL with 2 scientists on board. They have 5k electricity and an antenna and are in orbit of Kerbin. For my first ever MPL activity, I wanted to receive one report from Minimus and process it. Wiki says to right click the pod with the report and choose review data. I right clicked the pod, then "review stored data," which I figured was close enough. But then the wiki says to select the "process data" option. But I don't SEE that option! Just the same 3 options as always: discard, keep or transmit.

The lab has its antenna deployed. What am I missing? I just want to process one report to verify this works!

Is part of the same craft as the lab, or docked with it? If neither, you'll need to transfer the experiment result over to the lab craft by EVA.

Since you're describing a lab in orbit of Kerbin, but a report from Minimus, it sounds almost like you're expecting it to receive reports remotely. It doesn't work like that, you'll need to do an orbital rendezvous and dock or EVA to get the report to the lab.