New Mobile Processing Lab mechanics

[cephalo]

It's not as if the science labs have suddenly changed that.

Perhaps this is not a good thing, and maybe the tech progression needs to be stretched a bit and labs more necessary. The Kerbin system should provide enough science to leave the Kerbin system to the next step, et cetera. The tree might need a bit of reworking to make sure you have all you need to progress, (rover tech comes rather late for example.)

[magnemoe]

To be fair, this has almost always been the case. Pre-1.0, I believe there was enough science in the Kerbin system to complete the tech tree twice, and since then, they've relaxed the requirements for use on several of the science tools (e.g. pre-1.0 you couldn't take temperature scans in high orbit, now you can). It's not as if the science labs have suddenly changed that.

I always finish the tree before leaving kerbin SOI.orbit, Mun orbit, Minmus biome jumping, Mun rover to do 7 or 10 biomes if you can refuel in Mun orbit.

Fund is more of an problem in the start, scientists can clear goo and material labs this help a lot then jumping.

[Murph]

I'd like to return to the subject of having 2 or more MPL's on a single craft. I didn't realize the limitation before I recently landed a very nice science bus on the Mun that has two labs. Was that a complete waste? When the first lab is finished with the data, can I then load the same experiments into the second lab? Does the first lab make the second lab totally invisible and thereby useless? Have any of you reading this thread explored this configuration in detail?

You shouldn't let people build craft with two labs if it's a waste.

I like the MPL mechanics, but it needs polish. As someone mentioned, with labs you can complete the tech tree without leaving the Kerbin system. The labs need to be better integrated into the career mode's pacing. That means you might have to change the whole science gathering system to accommodate them.

It's not a total waste, every scientist on board contributes to the daily rate. So, 2 labs with 4 scientists should be double the daily rate of 1 lab with 2 scientists. It's just the 500 cap and the hidden internal no-repeats log that is per-craft and not per-lab. As for preventing it, it should only be a warning, as some may wish double rate, or have aesthetic reasons for choosing to have multiple labs.

Completing the tree without leaving Kerbin SoI is nothing new, and that's something that is actually a good thing. While it's possible to do interplanetary without completing the tree, plenty of people have absolutely no interest in doing so. I'm not interested in exploring the solar system with one hand tied behind my back. The career game is absolutely not about ongoing unlocking of the tech tree, that would be a terrible game. That has never been what the game is about, and I sincerely hope it never will be. It is about unlocking the tech tree as a start of game activity only, with mid to late and end game being all about exploration and managing funds. I always get the tech tree out of the way as first priority, before any interplanetary missions. The game is an open ended exploration and building sandbox, with the tech tree strictly as an early game "getting started" activity only. You can choose to venture out of the Kerbin SoI early if you prefer to do that, but you should never be forced into that just to get the full set of parts. The science system absolutely should not be changed in the way you suggest, it is absolutely not broken like that.

Yes, the labs need some polish, and a proper UI in particular. No, they do not need "to be better integrated", they need to continue as a stand alone and optional science source which you can choose to use or ignore. There is nothing wrong with career mode "pacing", it's working the way that it's supposed to work.

[Deimos_F]

I can unlock the entire tech tree without going farther than Kerbin's moons?! What's the point of even doing science elsewhere then? What's the point of launching MPLs and getting them in orbit other planets? Money? I mean don't spoil the entire game for me, but that is disturbing.

Yes, money. There's a science --> funds policy, which allows you to convert 500 science into 50.000 funds. I have two labs on Minmus pumping out 100.000 funds every ~100 days.

And to those suggesting the lab needs a nerf because of it easing finishing the tech tree before even leaving Kerbin SOI: that would only make sense if everything stayed the same and the tech tree became bigger. Think about it. Are you going to force people to travel beyond kerbin SOI before they unlock tier 3 engines/fuel tanks?? Makes no sense. We went to the moon in the sixties, using computers that were less powerful than the most humble smartphone. And after all these years and advancements, going beyond "Earth's SOI" is still an extremely daunting undertaking.

Finished the tech tree? Use labs to generate funds. Want to take longer to finish the tech tree? I would like it as well, but for now all we can do is use mods.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Deimos_F

[DarkGravity]

The career game is absolutely not about ongoing unlocking of the tech tree, that would be a terrible game. That has never been what the game is about, and I sincerely hope it never will be. It is about unlocking the tech tree as a start of game activity only, with mid to late and end game being all about exploration and managing funds.

So many different people approach games from so many different perspectives with different priorities. Personally, as a player on my first run-through, I find that science comes a little too easily and the MPL as it currently exists gives too much science when you start time accelerating, even for legitimate reasons. When I can do a mission and unlock 5 techs at once, I get a little overwhelmed with all the new parts. And it makes the success of gaining science and unlocking techs somehow seem a little less rewarding than I'd like it to be.

Perhaps I'll change my perspective after multiple run-throughs, but even if so, every game should have a really good first run-through. I'd like to see them do away with 2/3 of the KSP biomes for a start. And maybe add some end-game techs that do nothing except let players who want to unlock future techs unlock them. The Squad team is pretty clever at writing stupid stuff that makes you smile, and future techs that do nothing would be an opportunity to expand on that a bit.

I'd also like to see the MPLs chew through data quicker. Not to generate science faster, but to require more attention from the player. Once you get it full of data, you need to wait forever before you plug in the rest of the reports you have waiting to be processed. It leaves me feeling like all those surface samples from Minmus were a waste of time, and thus reduce that satisfaction for having been so incredibly clever as to pull off the amazing feat of getting them in the first place. (Now I know that getting surface samples from Minmus is no big deal, but still, first-time players want to feel like they are incredibly clever for figuring stuff out).

Whatever tweaks come down the line, I hope they keep in mind a large number of play styles.

Edited May 28, 2015 by DarkGravity

[cephalo]

I'm not interested in exploring the solar system with one hand tied behind my back.

Careful there, games in general are all about doing things with one hand tied behind your back. I understand what your saying though. Much of KSP's challenge comes from finding your own solutions to things, not just a lack of tech. I still think the tech progression should last a bit longer. The whole progression system seems kinda raw. With more consideration it could make the first playthrough even better than it is.

I also agree with DarkGravity that the first thing they should do is get rid of most of the biomes on Kerbin itself. That's just a silly grind. Far better to replace those points on Duna at least.

[Laie]

get rid of most of the biomes on Kerbin itself. That's just a silly grind.

On my first playthrough, I tried to "explore" Kerbin before seriously considering the Mun, under the assumption that I'm supposed to do it that way. Was mightily pissed when I found out that a single Munar mission was so easy and much more worthwhile. Important lesson learned, though: you don't have to touch every base in this game. If you do anyway, you have noone to blame but yourself.

[cephalo]

On my first playthrough, I tried to "explore" Kerbin before seriously considering the Mun, under the assumption that I'm supposed to do it that way..

That's kinda what I assumed too. I spent half an evening tooling around the KSC getting all the biomes, because I wanted to make sure I was prepared to take on the Mun.

Yeah, get rid of that stuff plez.

[MathmoRichard]

I think if you want to explore beyond the Kerbin system with full tech you might as well go play sandbox. Really what is the point of career if you don't keep unlocking things for quite a while. I agree about needing big tanks and engine to leave the SOI and do something useful, but there is much more than that in the tech tree. Also, as discussed, there are so many ways to get lots of science that you don't need the whole tree to do a lot. Once you have size 2 stuff you can go to other planets, we're not even talking about half the science there. The tech tree science requirements should go up IMO, and I think what they've done with labs is neat, but needs rebalancing. One might say "well if you time warp and get loads of science out of the MPLs then you're to blame for taking fun out of the game" but for new players who don't realise, they might think more like "oh gosh, this creates loads of science, if I need this it must be really hard to get science elsewhere, I'll save up for a bit"... or something... And then the fun of discovering other planets (doing science there) is completely ruined when they complete the tech tree by time the reach Duna.

Games are balanced to guide us to have the most fun and challenge us.

[Ferdoni]

I think if you want to explore beyond the Kerbin system with full tech you might as well go play sandbox. Really what is the point of career if you don't keep unlocking things for quite a while. I agree about needing big tanks and engine to leave the SOI and do something useful, but there is much more than that in the tech tree. Also, as discussed, there are so many ways to get lots of science that you don't need the whole tree to do a lot. Once you have size 2 stuff you can go to other planets, we're not even talking about half the science there. The tech tree science requirements should go up IMO, and I think what they've done with labs is neat, but needs rebalancing. One might say "well if you time warp and get loads of science out of the MPLs then you're to blame for taking fun out of the game" but for new players who don't realise, they might think more like "oh gosh, this creates loads of science, if I need this it must be really hard to get science elsewhere, I'll save up for a bit"... or something... And then the fun of discovering other planets (doing science there) is completely ruined when they complete the tech tree by time the reach Duna.

Games are balanced to guide us to have the most fun and challenge us.

True, in my opinion more parts should be moved upwards on the tech tree so you have to exploit more of the accesible body's biomes before going interplanetary. Now it is just one trip to mun, one to minmus, one to duna and so on, you don't need a lot of exploring. Even more with the lab ability of creating science.

[Deimos_F]

The problem them becomes the fact that a lot of parts are essential for doing a lot of things. Entire mission profiles are impossible without many high-tier parts.

So, as I said, I feel like the tech tree needs to grow, not become stretched. Interstellar mods this very nicely.

[Ferdoni]

The problem them becomes the fact that a lot of parts are essential for doing a lot of things. Entire mission profiles are impossible without many high-tier parts.

...so you have to explore the current available body's more. Wich gives you more the neccesarity of exploiting more biomes instead of exploring one and move on

[Laie]

That's kinda what I assumed too. I spent half an evening tooling around the KSC getting all the biomes, because I wanted to make sure I was prepared to take on the Mun.

Well, as angry as I was, it taught me that in this game I don't have to "complete" one thing before being allowed to move on to another.

I like to employ re-usable infrastructure. Any tug that doesn't have a large docking port and Mk3 fuselage is a one-off. I could go to Duna and at least some Joolian moons on low tech, if I wanted to. I don't want to, though, so I'm happy that I can complete the tech tree before the first launch window even comes up. Others feel differently, don't like to grind a dozen Munar biomes or like the challenge of doing a Duna mission on 1.25m parts. As it is, the game has a place for both playstyles. I'm fine with that.

[Deimos_F]

...so you have to explore the current available body's more. Wich gives you more the neccesarity of exploiting more biomes instead of exploring one and move on

If you want to tie your ability to progress throughout the system to the tech tree, "exploring a certain body more" basically means grinding.

[Wanderfound]

That's kinda what I assumed too. I spent half an evening tooling around the KSC getting all the biomes, because I wanted to make sure I was prepared to take on the Mun.

Yeah, get rid of that stuff plez.

The Kerbin biomes are there as an escape hatch for players who get stuck in the early game. They serve a purpose, and nothing in the game forces or even encourages the player to grind them.

[Pappus]

I am on my first playthrough and some things bother me: Mun gives too much, not even landing there with careful equipment like the lab, but simply orbitting it is already several hundred science. On another note some things are too far in the tech-tree I think the game should actually emphasize more on the plane part of the game and graduate to mun and stuff from there.

Like getting your first plane done, then fly a bit do a couple missions and save up actual credits to even pay for the rocket trials and then slowly go to kerbin orbit, kerbin space, mun, minmus really needing to explore it to advance further in the techtree.

So planestuff should come earlier except rapier of course, but the turbojet could come early, then you unlock the first rockets. It doesn't even need to be gated by science exclusively. They could slow down the process by increasing rocket prices a big margin. I mean 500-1000 for a booster isn't exactly a lot so check the missions and make sure their payment isn't too far ahead of the "do" cost. Especially looking at those orbital tourists and it gets even worse. If I would bother to do one of those deluxe mun/mimum/kerbin missions of ~4 tourists I think that would net me more than half a million and then you got the rocket booster price.... 2k a piece - dafuq?

[DarkGravity]

The Kerbin biomes are there as an escape hatch for players who get stuck in the early game. They serve a purpose, and nothing in the game forces or even encourages the player to grind them.

No, but early game players do come with certain assumptions and habits from other games, as Cephalo demonstrated. Same thing happened to me. Especially since they are so artificial. Who are we kidding with making the astronaut complex a different biome than the VAB? Simply putting them there is more encouragement than works for me. Cut down the KSP campus biomes by 2/3.

Do planes before rockets? I'm OK with that as long as you only need to do really really low tech planes before you can do rockets.

[Murph]

I couldn't be more against anything which forces you down a particular path in career mode using the tech tree, or that nerfs current science levels. It would be a huge, game-breaking mistake!

The tech tree is early game only, end of story. That's how it is, that's how it has always been, that is how it is designed, and that is how it should be. The game is about exploration, not grinding science reports. Science is still useful once the tech tree is completed. If you are incapable of motivating yourself to explore the solar system, without a stupid grinding mechanic and one hand tied behind your back from having a pitiful selection of parts to use, then you are in the wrong game!

Career mode is not about unlocking the tech tree, that's just one tiny component of it that is intended to be the earliest, finite, and relatively short start to your career. Once it is complete, you are exploring for the satisfaction of exploring, gathering science for the satisfaction of gathering it (and getting paid for it once the tech tree is complete), designing new craft for the satisfaction of designing them (and to help with the other activities), and fulfilling contracts. Right now, everyone has the choice in how they prefer to start the game, either completing the tech tree locally, or reaching further out while completing it. Taking that choice away and replacing it with a horrible slow grind that involves a huge amount of time warp would be a dreadful mistake and go a long way to euthanising KSP long before its time!

[Laie]

Who are we kidding with making the astronaut complex a different biome than the VAB?

Before 0.90, there were the three biomes Runway, Launchpad, and KSC.

There's another spacecenter on Kerbin -- a copy of how it used to look like in 0.18 or something. It has a launchpad with a launchpad biome. If you place anything on that old launchpad and want to launch a new vessel on the current KSC, you'll be told that you need to clear the launchpad before you can proceed. Apparently the query whether the pad is available is tied to the biome in some way.

The introduction of destructible buildings also brought about the many KSC biomes -- I guess they're necessary to make it work. Their science value is not their purpose, but a side effect.

[MathmoRichard]

Taking that choice away and replacing it with a horrible slow grind that involves a huge amount of time warp would be a dreadful mistake

I think the time warp thing is a separate issue. We need a big change to the MPL.

Regarding the rest, you're right, most of the game should be with the tech tree unlocked and just exploring... but do you really think it should be unlocked without visiting another planet? I believe this is too soon, I think we should get the last part of the tree when we have done a decent job of Duna (so we've still only been to a small fraction of the whole system).

Also, what if some of us are in it for the science collecting and want an in-game reward for doing it which isn't money (or reputation)? I definitely can motivate myself to explore the system and do the rest of the science without a tech tree to play with, but it would be EVEN BETTER with something else to aim for, something you can get your hands on. And again, if you really don't care for the tech tree then play sandbox. I suppose I can also tell myself to up the difficulty, but we need to get back to the point...

What would be good is if we started discussing how the MPL mechanics should work. How can it have some impact on science without giving us unlimited science in this unnecessary way? Perhaps the MPL can be a little bit more of an experiment type part which interacts with the others somehow? Perhaps the MPL could just give you a finite amount of science, maybe only for experiments not already found. There was a comment about "we don't want to punish people for discovering the part later when lots of experiments have already been used up", well I doubt you'll have even done half the solar system's biomes by time you unlock it.

I'm sure theres a huge number of ways to implement it.

[Pappus]

Is there something preventing just parking the lab next to the KSC and take the data of any returning vessel there first for data collection purposses? I mean I get it should be rewarding to orbit this stuff etc, but I see no reason why I just couldn't place it next to KSC and build a small plane to collect the data around the globe should I gravely missaim my re-entry

[Laie]

Is there something preventing just parking the lab next to the KSC

Yes. Processing science on Kerbin's surface yields next to no data.

[basic.syntax]

Expanding a post I made in another thread:

I started my v1.0 career with a 40% science "nerf," and with that, I have a real use for the new science labs. I left funding at 100%. Lower building upgrade costs compared to v.90 have reduced the feeling of contract "grind" for buildings, I'm now grinding For Science, lol. I'm scrambling to rescue every lost Kerbal, to get scientists to staff the labs (a wonderful alternative to hiring costs.) I've been to both Kerbin's moons several times, but am really having to visit every biome, just to get into the 300 science tier of parts. I take a tourist contract when they pop up, and that pays for a visit to a different biome

I'm starting to push on to farther planets, 'cause I know they "pay" better in science... but the time! The uncertainty - If I've forgotten a part, or get someone stranded, they will be stuck for a while. The... lack of ability to skill up Kerbals in the field. Three ships to Duna - science lab, exploration ship, and some extra fuel - will arrive in 290 days (didn't wait for optimal window.) Long trip, and I didn't have the Nuke unlocked yet Local contracts and activities are slowing, I will probably do some timewarping soon, to move that along.

I have 3 science labs running, one on the Mun earning ~.5 sci/day, one orbiting Minimus earning ~1 sci/day, and the third is on the way to Duna earning very little, just the data you can get from "space in high orbit of the sun," lol.

Its very different from my .90 career, I'm doing more exploration. I'm not a good sandboxer... I like having "a reason" and game advancement reward for the exploration. Well, except for EVE. Because the mountain is there, and it must be climbed After about the same amount of game time in .90, I had most of the science tree unlocked, mostly due to contracts giving way too much Science. I never did a Jool mission. I might go there this time around.

Edited May 29, 2015 by basic.syntax

[haltux]

If you are incapable of motivating yourself to explore the solar system, without a stupid grinding mechanic and one hand tied behind your back from having a pitiful selection of parts to use, then you are in the wrong game!

The whole point of career mode is to manage to do things with limited resources, in order to access to better resources to do more complex / difficult things. Like 80% of video games. If you find that stupid I don't get why you play career mode at all.

The tech tree is early game only, end of story.

That's absurd. If you make a game with technology evolution it has no reason to stop "early in the game". Why exactly would it stop? It makes no sense at all.

[Pappus]

Are you sure that it is processing science on kerbins surface or rather kerbins stuff itself yields little data?

- - - Updated - - -

I couldn't be more against anything which forces you down a particular path in career mode using the tech tree, or that nerfs current science levels. It would be a huge, game-breaking mistake!

The tech tree is early game only, end of story. That's how it is, that's how it has always been, that is how it is designed, and that is how it should be. The game is about exploration, not grinding science reports. Science is still useful once the tech tree is completed. If you are incapable of motivating yourself to explore the solar system, without a stupid grinding mechanic and one hand tied behind your back from having a pitiful selection of parts to use, then you are in the wrong game!

Career mode is not about unlocking the tech tree, that's just one tiny component of it that is intended to be the earliest, finite, and relatively short start to your career. Once it is complete, you are exploring for the satisfaction of exploring, gathering science for the satisfaction of gathering it (and getting paid for it once the tech tree is complete), designing new craft for the satisfaction of designing them (and to help with the other activities), and fulfilling contracts. Right now, everyone has the choice in how they prefer to start the game, either completing the tech tree locally, or reaching further out while completing it. Taking that choice away and replacing it with a horrible slow grind that involves a huge amount of time warp would be a dreadful mistake and go a long way to euthanising KSP long before its time!

Why don't you just play sandbox? I don't get your logic at all. In simpler terms: There is no progression anymore once the science tree is done. You can now design rockets without anything remotely resembling science stuff, because why would you. All missions before always try to pack what they can to get at least some science out of it. The game is more enjoyable as long as there are tradeoffs you need to make. I can design a rocket that lands once on mun, gather science and come back. I cannot design it in a fashion that also allows for 4 tourists to be sight-seeing at the same time. Most beginners will likely be in the same shoes as me and I like the seperation that having the science tree not fully unlocked brings.

I was doing science only mission for a purpose, be it turbojet to start spaceplaning, to go further or simply cheaper. There is no exploring as far as I can see. There is nothing to see on those planets, you mostly need to click on some science stuff to even check if you are actually in another biome. The career mode should be all about being limited, because if I don't want to play it THAT way I can just press sandbox where it really is about exploration.

Career mode should be about establishing bases with rudimentary stuff you have.