New Mobile Processing Lab mechanics

[DarkGravity]

Oh, thanks!! I was under the impression that you could transmit data to the MPL by prestidigitating the electromagnetic spectrum remotely.

[DarkGravity]

OK. I gots me a MPL landed on Minimus. I have 500 data plus some stored experiments waiting for the data to drop below 500. If I want to maximize, I should wait to leave Minimus' SoI until after all experiments from Minimus are being actively processed, yes?

Second question: a MPL landed on Eeloo processing data generated on Minimus would do the same/better than a MPL landed on Mun processing data generated on Minimus? (Probably a silly thing to do, but if I understand correctly, those should be the same.)

[Murph]

OK. I gots me a MPL landed on Minimus. I have 500 data plus some stored experiments waiting for the data to drop below 500. If I want to maximize, I should wait to leave Minimus' SoI until after all experiments from Minimus are being actively processed, yes?

Second question: a MPL landed on Eeloo processing data generated on Minimus would do the same/better than a MPL landed on Mun processing data generated on Minimus? (Probably a silly thing to do, but if I understand correctly, those should be the same.)

Yeah, max return from the lab requires you to wait and load all the stuff before taking traditional results back to Kerbin for traditional style science points. You don't have to do that, however, you can collect the same experiments again in the future, and load them into the lab even if their traditional science value has dropped to 0. You just can't load the same (experiment+location) combo twice into the same lab. That said, go do something more interesting while it slowly processes data; please try to avoid just abusing the lab via an endless stream of warp->load->transmit->warp->load->transmit->etc. It might unlock the tree easily, but it's really missing out on a huge chunk of the game, might as well just edit yourself 100,000 science points into your persistent.sfs file, in my opinion. If you were not planning on such abuse, good for you, well done!

I'm only about 90% certain, but I think the bonus is only for loading data in the same SoI that the original experiment came from. I.e. Minimum experiments will get a bonus at Minimus (and possibly Kerbin orbit, not sure), but not Mun or another planet. You really shouldn't need to take Minimus results to more exotic places, as the exotic places have more valuable experiment results so should fill up the lab rapidly without doing that.

[DarkGravity]

What I'm trying to ask in my first question refers to the experiments that I have already put into the ship but that still have to wait to be processed (because I already have 500 data in the MPL). Since the experiments were put into that ship while in the same SoI, will I lose anything if I move the ship out of the SoI before processing the experiments? If I got a surface sample from Minimus and put it into the ship while the ship is on Minimus, is that enough to get max reward even if I process it later somewhere else, or do I still have to wait to leave Minimus' SoI in order to get max benefits?

[Murph]

What I'm trying to ask in my first question refers to the experiments that I have already put into the ship but that still have to wait to be processed (because I already have 500 data in the MPL). Since the experiments were put into that ship while in the same SoI, will I lose anything if I move the ship out of the SoI before processing the experiments? If I got a surface sample from Minimus and put it into the ship while the ship is on Minimus, is that enough to get max reward even if I process it later somewhere else, or do I still have to wait to leave Minimus' SoI in order to get max benefits?

Ahh, ok, as far as I know, it has nothing to do with when and where the traditional experiment results were loaded onto the craft. It's all about where the craft is when they are processed to generate data for the lab. You will lose the same SoI bonus if you leave Minimus before you have processed them into research data. Once processed into research data points, location no longer matters.

Honestly, though, the bonus is nice, but not essential. Between Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus, there's more than enough science to unlock the entire tech tree before you get any from a lab. The same SoI bonus doesn't improve the rate of generated science (the amount per day), only the total long term science generated. Max reward from the lab is far from essential, and there's enough data from Mun & Minimus to keep a lab running for quite a long time without the bonus.

[DarkGravity]

Between Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus, there's more than enough science to unlock the entire tech tree before you get any from a lab.

Thanks for the reply. The bit I'm quoting seems kinda, I dunno, disappointing. I can unlock the entire tech tree without going farther than Kerbin's moons?! What's the point of even doing science elsewhere then? What's the point of launching MPLs and getting them in orbit other planets? Money? I mean don't spoil the entire game for me, but that is disturbing.

Edited May 25, 2015 by DarkGravity

[Murph]

Thanks for the reply. The bit I'm quoting seems kinda, I dunno, disappointing. I can unlock the entire tech tree without going farther than Kerbin's moons?! What's the point of even doing science elsewhere then? What's the point of launching MPLs and getting them in orbit other planets? Money? I mean don't spoil the entire game for me, but that is disturbing.

Well, you do have choices. You don't have to unlock the tech tree before leaving Kerbin SoI, that's just one option. Really though, unlocking the tech tree is only the start of the game. Others will view it differently, but I view tech tree completion as getting my space program fully established. Once established, I've got the full set of tools available for exploring greater distances properly. Subsequent science gains can be converted into funds and/or reputation, once the tree is complete and you bank a little extra science to unlock any extra nodes added later by mods (or possible future official expansions) or to spend in the admin building to enable a policy.

After tech tree full unlock, the game is all about exploration, completing contracts, pure self-satisfaction of building up a complete collection of science reports, and playing around with different designs and types of craft; in whatever proportions you prefer. To me, that's the real main game, an open ended sandbox simulation, the tech tree is only the introduction and first phase. It's also the long end game, much like other games where you initially are focussed on levelling up, then enter the long end game at max level.

It has parallels in the real world, with NASA (and others) effectively having to unlock their tech trees, but eventually reaching a point where they had mostly unlocked everything and were then able to use it for exploration. Sure, they are still inventing new stuff, but it's more like variations on existing themes and refinements of existing tech, rather than unlocking completely new tech. It would be difficult within KSP's current framework to simulate those variations and refinements to any great extent. Perhaps a future version of KSP might find a way to reasonably unlock enhancements to tech (e.g. performance upgrades to the same parts) after tech tree completion.

[Laie]

I can unlock the entire tech tree without going farther than Kerbin's moons?! What's the point of even doing science elsewhere then? What's the point of launching MPLs and getting them in orbit other planets? Money? I mean don't spoil the entire game for me, but that is disturbing.

You can, but it requires a very thorough survey of both the Mun and Minmus. AFAIK, many (most?) people prefer to go to other planets instead and fill up the tech tree as they go along.

More generally speaking: KSP is a sandbox game at heart, even in career mode. You can't "win": the game ends when you get bored or run out of ideas, no sooner or later. Completing the tech tree is a means, not an end. There's enough traditional science points in the game to complete the tech tree several times over, but previously it was a finite resource. According to Roverdude somewhere early in this thread, the point of the lab is to provide infinite science even after you've turned every stone in the system.

You get a bonus if you process the data where it was collected, but you will not miss or lose anything if you don't utilize a lab to it's fullest.

[mrklaw]

Can you load in experiments even over the 500 limit, and they just sit queued up? And if so, does it still only take a copy so you can take the original back to kerbin for instant points? About to go minmus biome hopping today but my MPL already has almost 500 just from a couple of EVAs and surface sample from one biome.

[Murph]

Can you load in experiments even over the 500 limit, and they just sit queued up? And if so, does it still only take a copy so you can take the original back to kerbin for instant points? About to go minmus biome hopping today but my MPL already has almost 500 just from a couple of EVAs and surface sample from one biome.

In a word, no.

You can't process traditional experiment results past the 500 data limit. You have unlimited storage of traditional results in the lab. They are not even queued, just stored for future review, and copying doesn't exist (processing them into lab data does not copy them as such, it just loads them as data units). You either have to wait until everything is processed (could be years), or transmit/recover them without processing into lab data. Transmitting or recovering them to KSC doesn't prevent you getting a new copy of the same result (that hasn't already been processed by that lab) in the future, even if the traditional science available has dropped to 0.

[DarkGravity]

when you click the yellow beaker icon, it gives the experiment to the MPL .A few minutes later, the MPL is done making data out of it, and you are once again given the opportunity to keep, discard or transmit the original experiment.

[klesh]

This is so complicated. For a 1.0 game, the documentation on the various mechanics ingame is abysmal.

[Murph]

This is so complicated. For a 1.0 game, the documentation on the various mechanics ingame is abysmal.

It's not rocket science… oh, wait…

Seriously though, speaking as an occasional volunteer editor of the wiki, on behalf of volunteer wiki editors everywhere, we're trying to get the docs up to date, complete, and accurate.

[DarkGravity]

I think was talking about the "documentation... ingame." And I agree. The ingame docs and tutorials are fairly weak. I think people understand the wiki is kind of separate. I for one, certainly appreciate all the volunteers who make the wiki what it is

[Laie]

Seriously though, speaking as an occasional volunteer editor of the wiki, on behalf of volunteer wiki editors everywhere, we're trying to get the docs up to date, complete, and accurate.

Been there done that. Had my edits cut because purity.

If you want to start an edit war, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. I think there's a lot that could be salvaged: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?title=Science&diff=40392&oldid=39855

[Murph]

Been there done that. Had my edits cut because purity.

If you want to start an edit war, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. I think there's a lot that could be salvaged: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?title=Science&diff=40392&oldid=39855

Unless I'm mistaken, your edits were simply moved from Science to Tutorial:Science, which seems like a reasonable enough thing to me. The only slightly unreasonable thing I see is that the comments in the revision history could possibly have been a little more diplomatic. It's good to keep the tutorial content separate from the main pages (but clearly linked from them), as the main pages are used by both newbies and old hands alike. There was enough content there to split off into a good tutorial, it seems to make sense, but I'll admit that I need to read both articles properly to be certain the other editor got the balance right. For now, I think I'll assume good faith, and urge you to do so as well (and forgive a possibly bad choice of words for the comments made via the revision history).

- - - Updated - - -

I think was talking about the "documentation... ingame." And I agree. The ingame docs and tutorials are fairly weak. I think people understand the wiki is kind of separate. I for one, certainly appreciate all the volunteers who make the wiki what it is

Yeah, the in game tutorials could use some more work. I'm kinda split over whether there should be lots of in-game docs. The advantages (and yeah, disadvantages too) of external wiki docs are obvious, mostly that we can fix the docs instantly for everyone if they are found to be lacking in any way. I'm strongly against any form of in-game embedded web browser, as they are major security vulnerabilities, since they always lack the proper protections and risk mitigation found in full browsers (e.g. Flash has a truly dreadful security track record, so I have it disabled by default, then enabled on a per-site basis, to mitigate the risk). To me, tabbing out to the wiki in an external browser for detailed docs is reasonable enough.

[Laie]

Unless I'm mistaken, your edits were simply moved from Science to Tutorial:Science, which seems like a reasonable enough thing to me.

Opinions may vary... I tried to make up for the manual we don't have, but in hindsight it seems unreasonably wordy. But then again, where results are kept, and that you can take and move them elsewhere, or how all pods but the lab have limited capacity -- that's shouldn't be in some tutorial somewhere. If a pure page of data tables is needed (and frankly, when I came back later I mostly went for the data), IMO *that* should be an article to itself.

[MathmoRichard]

Fantastic thread, thank you so much to everyone for your time and effort, especially RoverDude.

I think I understand most things, so correct me if I'm wrong, here's the mechanics in a nutshell (and all the mechanics really ought to be printed somewhere concisely):

1. Science experiments from the same spaceship may be 'processed' in the MPL without removing it from its origin.

Question 1: What about EVA transfer of science? Obviously this would remove it from the origin, but then hopefully it is merely stored in the MPL in the classical sense of storing science? In this case do you still need to click to process?

2. Processing experiments adds to the MPL's 'data' counter. The amount of data depends both on the experiment and the current biome at time of processing

Question 2: In what proportion? If the experiment is worth x science points what is the corresponding data in terms of x. And how does the biome affect it? Simple multiplier?

3. By researching the current data stored the data is transformed into science (as a counter in the MPL) in a 1:5 ratio. This decreases data at a rate and increases science at 5 times the rate. Importantly, the rate is proportional to the current amount of data (meaning the function of data decays exponentially through time if left alone). The rate is also proportional to the skill of scientists on the ship.

Question 3: Do the scientists need to be in the MPL or just the ship? Does having two scientists help?

Question 4: In what exact way do the star ratings improve the rate?

Edited May 25, 2015 by MathmoRichard

[thegreatgonz]

The "Rate" display on the MPL claims to be measuring "sci/day", but based on the actual rate that science accumulates and data disappears, it seems to be exactly 5x too low. In other words, I think it's actually measuring data/day. Am I misunderstanding something? Is this a known bug?

[DarkGravity]

I'm too sleepy to go point by point. Any science done anywhere can be stored in an astronaut or a pod. If the astronaut walks up to or flies (eva) up to the MPL, or if a pod with experiments docs with the MPL, he (or it) can give the experiment, any experiment, to the MPL for processing (provided that the MPL is not already full of data). A minute after receiving the experiment, the MPL gives it back to the astronaut while the MPL keeps the data.

Now lets say the data buffer is full (and it will be full surprisingly quickly and once full, it takes a longggg time to drop). In that situation, the astronaut can just store the experiment in the MPL and walk away, just the same as he can do with any pod. The MPL will get around to converting that experiment to data later, provided you come back later and tell it to do so. Having 2 scientists in the MPL helps. More stars the better. The more exotic the experiment, the better. If the MPL is in the same biome that the experiment came from at the moment the MPL converts the experiment to data, even better.

I just put a MPL with 2 (one star) scientists on to Minimus. On the way there, they took a crew report in space, worth nothing normally since this has already been done many times. They started processing this data, and the buffer was still mostly empty. Every 6 hour day, the MPL was generating 0.05 science. When I got to the surface of Minimus, after about 8 or 10 experiments were loaded, the data buffer was full. Now every 6 hour day was generating like 0.5 science. After flying back to low Kerbin orbit, I noticed I was getting 1.1 science per day from the same lab. (not sure why, maybe because they had finally stopped working on the crew report from space near Kerbin and started working on the more exotic Minimus data). Now 1.1 science per day probably doesn't sound like much, but Minimus is 50 million km away from Kerbin, so during the flight back, time acceleration can make the science add up. I think I had about 100 science to send home when I got into LKO.

I'm still pretty new at MPLs, but I think I got that right.

Edited May 26, 2015 by DarkGravity

[KerbMav]

1. Science experiments from the same spaceship may be 'processed' in the MPL without removing it from its origin.

Question 1: What about EVA transfer of science? Obviously this would remove it from the origin, but then hopefully it is merely stored in the MPL in the classical sense of storing science? In this case do you still need to click to process?

Question 2: In what proportion? If the experiment is worth x science points what is the corresponding data in terms of x. And how does the biome affect it? Simple multiplier?

Question 3: Do the scientists need to be in the MPL or just the ship? Does having two scientists help?

Question 4: In what exact way do the star ratings improve the rate?

Experiments are never "deleted" by processing them into data, regardless of where they are stored at that moment, so you can move them into the lab or a command pod of the lab's vessel and take them out later to return them to Kerbin for their original science value. Storing does not start processing, you will have to "review stored experiments" and click processing for each of them - quite good, because the lab can only hold 500 data points and I have yet to try what happens when i "overfeed" it, because you can only process any experiment in a single lab once! You can always build a new lab though and reuse the old experiments, so minmaxing would mean to always return a copy of every experiment for the sole purpose of storing it in the most recent science station for example.

I think the data value is equivalent to the science value, but not sure right now.

You get 25% bonus for processing an experiment from the same SOI the lab is in at the time and a 10% for a lab that is landed on any surface. (On Kerbin's surface you only receive 10% of what could have been though, so LKO science stations are the minimum for a lab to pay off.)

Every scientist anywhere in the same vessel of the lab helps. (99% sure)

I do not know the exact rates, but maybe the part.cfg will tell us.

The "Rate" display on the MPL claims to be measuring "sci/day", but based on the actual rate that science accumulates and data disappears, it seems to be exactly 5x too low. In other words, I think it's actually measuring data/day. Am I misunderstanding something? Is this a known bug?

My rate jumped up after starting the lab up, but maybe only during lab work are the scientists accounted for? (Something to find out.)

When I got to the surface of Minimus, after about 8 or 10 experiments were loaded, the data buffer was full. Now every 6 hour day was generating like 0.5 science. After flying back to low Kerbin orbit, I noticed I was getting 1.1 science per day from the same lab. (not sure why, maybe because they had finally stopped working on the crew report from space near Kerbin and started working on the more exotic Minimus data). Now 1.1 science per day probably doesn't sound like much, but Minimus is 50 million km away from Kerbin, so during the flight back, time acceleration can make the science add up. I think I had about 100 science to send home when I got into LKO.

Maybe the jump up in science rate has to do with what thegreatgonz observed - only other possibility would be a change in personell, do you use any "inflight experience level up" mods or switched crew, docked to something else ... ?

Why does it take you 100 days to get from Minmus back to Kerbin?

[DarkGravity]

My rate jumped up after starting the lab up, but maybe only during lab work are the scientists accounted for? (Something to find out.)

Maybe the jump up in science rate has to do with what thegreatgonz observed - only other possibility would be a change in personell, do you use any "inflight experience level up" mods or switched crew, docked to something else ... ?

Why does it take you 100 days to get from Minmus back to Kerbin?

I was doing other things. I spent a while on Minmus just hanging out while my other ships where doing stuff. Then, I rescued a scientist in orbit of Minmus and she came on board. Then Bob ran out of fuel on Minmus, so I rescued him. (in extra cockpits, so maybe that is why my sci/day jumped up). I also did an extra orbit of Kerbin with an AP near Minmus, just so that I could mess around with orbital mechanics. I don't know how many days it was, but I sent back enough science that 100 is probably in the right ballpark.

[mrklaw]

DarkGraciy - thanks,that helps me understand better. I currently have an MPL full of data on minmus and I haven't even started biome hopping. So it looks like I either play the (super) long game and drop all my science off and wait years, or I take it all back to kerbin for quick science points and the come back and do it again so the MPL has its own copies sitting waiting.

[cephalo]

I'd like to return to the subject of having 2 or more MPL's on a single craft. I didn't realize the limitation before I recently landed a very nice science bus on the Mun that has two labs. Was that a complete waste? When the first lab is finished with the data, can I then load the same experiments into the second lab? Does the first lab make the second lab totally invisible and thereby useless? Have any of you reading this thread explored this configuration in detail?

You shouldn't let people build craft with two labs if it's a waste.

I like the MPL mechanics, but it needs polish. As someone mentioned, with labs you can complete the tech tree without leaving the Kerbin system. The labs need to be better integrated into the career mode's pacing. That means you might have to change the whole science gathering system to accommodate them.

[Orbital Vagabond]

As someone mentioned, with labs you can complete the tech tree without leaving the Kerbin system.

To be fair, this has almost always been the case. Pre-1.0, I believe there was enough science in the Kerbin system to complete the tech tree twice, and since then, they've relaxed the requirements for use on several of the science tools (e.g. pre-1.0 you couldn't take temperature scans in high orbit, now you can). It's not as if the science labs have suddenly changed that.