I don't get the whining about 1.0.2

[ShadowZone]

For some reason, when I look upon that I start to despair.

Could you expand on that? Do you mean the vehicle, the heat problem or my explanation?

Please note that I don't feel attacked, I am just genuinely curious

[AlexinTokyo]

Ozymandias - Percy Bysshe Shelley

"Look on my works ye Mighty, and despair!"

ETA: I am assuming here.

[ShadowZone]

Ozymandias - Percy Bysshe Shelley

"Look on my works ye Mighty, and despair!"

ETA: I am assuming here.

Oh yeah... and I even based the name on that poem

Shouldn't post right after getting up on a Sunday morning...

[Temeter]

Could you expand on that? Do you mean the vehicle, the heat problem or my explanation?

Please note that I don't feel attacked, I am just genuinely curious

You placed the LVNs in a way that isolated the engines and caused the heat to pile up, I assume a strut or some other part as a fixture? The heat needs to spread over your whole ship (not the electronics tho) so every part can do it's job at radiating heat (which is the only way to get rid of heat in space). Do that, and your ship will most likely never overheat in 1.0.2.

[DebatedNothing]

Yes I know "AERODYNAMIC CHANGES OH GOD WHY" and "JET ENGINES REBALANCED OH GOD WHY" and so on, but I'd just like to remind you of a short, three letter word "mod". If you don't like the aerodynamic system because it's gone back to being a bit more soupy, get FAR, if that's too "hard" for you, get NEAR. Jets aren't powerful enough for you? Tweak the config files, or get a mod that adds more powerful jets. Don't like the reentry damage? There's a goddamn slider you idiot. Everyone calm down, if you don't like the changes you can revert your version, or you can install mods. The sky is not falling, KSP has not been destroyed, all will be right with the world. Also to that guy who's posted about four threads about SSTOs not being viable anymore, I made one in about five minutes, you just suck at making SSTOs by new rules, stop moaning.

[Frostiken]

Or maybe the release titled '1.0' shouldn't have been so rushed that Squad had to put out two hotfixes in a week and completely mess up aerophysics in the last patch.

I'm not even going to play the game anymore until they get this figured out, because as far as I know half my rockets are going to explode on the launchpad next week when they rush more untested, random knee-jerk changes.

The community collectively assumed that 1.0 was going to be a rush-job, and sure enough, it was.

Honestly I feel the worst for the mod makers, they're the ones getting completely hosed by these constant ........ changes.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Frostiken

[Roflcopterkklol]

Yes I know "AERODYNAMIC CHANGES OH GOD WHY" and "JET ENGINES REBALANCED OH GOD WHY" and so on, but I'd just like to remind you of a short, three letter word "mod". If you don't like the aerodynamic system because it's gone back to being a bit more soupy, get FAR, if that's too "hard" for you, get NEAR. Jets aren't powerful enough for you? Tweak the config files, or get a mod that adds more powerful jets. Don't like the reentry damage? There's a goddamn slider you idiot. Everyone calm down, if you don't like the changes you can revert your version, or you can install mods. The sky is not falling, KSP has not been destroyed, all will be right with the world. Also to that guy who's posted about four threads about SSTOs not being viable anymore, I made one in about five minutes, you just suck at making SSTOs by new rules, stop moaning.

Or they could.. you know... not ruin the game by making the drag over the top.. it is the main thing that has frustrated so many people..

Even rockets are a struggle to keep under control now with the soup, gravity turns can not be started until 15km or so.. they had it fairly good in 1.0 why ruin it?

[RocketBlam]

I can start my gravity turns at sea level if I want to. The rocket now spins out of control if you try to do a 45 degree turn going 1000 miles an hour. That's the way it should be. Well, actually the craft should experience RUD, but at least now it works better.

[jarmund]

"LV-Ns overheat too fast"

They always ran hot, hence the description saying so. Not an issue if accounted for during building by proper design

"They brought back the soupmosphere"

KSP Aero was meant to be fun, not realistic, and with 1.0.2 it is more fun than any other version, as the higher drag makes for a more predictable flight. Drag isn't off the charts or broken in any way, it is tuned up from being way too low in 1.0.0.

"Rockets flip over too easily"

No. Use fins and stop doing gravity turns the way you learned pre-1.0.

"SSTOs are impossible now"

No they're not. Forget what you learnt pre-1.0.

"SSTOs are ugly now"

If you can't make your Ion powered Borg cube replica or flying wing design go to orbit the way you want it, you need to look at real life SSTO concepts.

"They changed the aero AGAIN"

Yes they did. And you have to tweak your crafts. As HarvestR said before release, balance is a moving target, and this isn't a KSP phenomenon. How long has War Thunder been around? They're still rebalancing that game.

1.0 Was a great update!

1.0.1 I didn't have a chance to try

1.0.2 Rebalanced and fixed one of my few 1.0 grievances, resulting in a game that is more fun than ever.

I'm just tired of seeing the same threads by the same group bashing the release-builds. If you don't like like the aero, use FAR or NEAR. If you don't redesigning your 0.90 crafts, then switch to 0.90.

Simply put, I don't get the whining this thread refers to either.

[Temeter]

A calm ye tits thread and the first two posters are already hyperventilating and talking about ruining the game. Classy. Then again, you can't make a thread about stock aerodynamics without someone unasked telling how much more he loves FAR. Noticed a bit of toxicity in the forum in the recent past.

I guess the positive people are just busy playing the game and not complaining on the forums.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Temeter
damn those grammatics

[DebatedNothing]

Gravity turns are not hard. They're not nearly as bad as in FAR. You're just used to being able to have a rocket be stable at 45 degrees AOT. The aerodynamics are better, objectively, than they were previously. Squad aren't a big company, and yet they've done this launch a lot better than most large companies do theirs. Everyone is just getting very pissy because we're all used to KSP updates working immediately. Give squad some time, go outside, realise there's a lot more to the world than KSP, and then come back with some perspective and realise that this has been a very good update.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess the positive people are just busy playing the game and not complaining on the forums.

Absolutely. I only came on the forum to see if there was a known cause for a bug I had. The people bitching on the forums are the vocal minority.

[jarmund]

Instead of dublicating my post, I'll just link to it here instead, as it's relevant to this thread.

[WOODY01]

Or they could.. you know... not ruin the game by making the drag over the top.. it is the main thing that has frustrated so many people..

Even rockets are a struggle to keep under control now with the soup, gravity turns can not be started until 15km or so.. they had it fairly good in 1.0 why ruin it?

I start my gravity turns between almost right off the pad to 1k. I just do not turn too far away from the prograde marker until I get up around 30k. Usually starting the turn early the rocket is somewhere around a 35-45 degree angle around 10k. About 1/2 the time once I lean my rocket over 5 degrees I hardly have to make any adjustments if I do it just right I do not need to touch the keys at all it just goes fine all by itself.

[DebatedNothing]

"LV-Ns overheat too fast"

They always ran hot, hence the description saying so. Not an issue if accounted for during building by proper design

"They brought back the soupmosphere"

KSP Aero was meant to be fun, not realistic, and with 1.0.2 it is more fun than any other version, as the higher drag makes for a more predictable flight. Drag isn't off the charts or broken in any way, it is tuned up from being way too low in 1.0.0.

"Rockets flip over too easily"

No. Use fins and stop doing gravity turns the way you learned pre-1.0.

"SSTOs are impossible now"

No they're not. Forget what you learnt pre-1.0.

"SSTOs are ugly now"

If you can't make your Ion powered Borg cube replica or flying wing design go to orbit the way you want it, you need to look at real life SSTO concepts.

"They changed the aero AGAIN"

Yes they did. And you have to tweak your crafts. As HarvestR said before release, balance is a moving target, and this isn't a KSP phenomenon. How long has War Thunder been around? They're still rebalancing that game.

1.0 Was a great update!

1.0.1 I didn't have a chance to try

1.0.2 Rebalanced and fixed one of my few 1.0 grievances, resulting in a game that is more fun than ever.

I'm just tired of seeing the same threads by the same group bashing the release-builds. If you don't like like the aero, use FAR or NEAR. If you don't redesigning your 0.90 crafts, then switch to 0.90.

Simply put, I don't get the whining this thread refers to either.

^this. People just hate change.

[jarmund]

I start my gravity turns between almost right off the pad to 1k. I just do not turn too far away from the prograde marker until I get up around 30k. Usually starting the turn early the rocket is somewhere around a 35-45 degree angle around 10k. About 1/2 the time once I lean my rocket over 5 degrees I hardly have to make any adjustments if I do it just right I do not need to touch the keys at all it just goes fine all by itself.

Same. Now I launch very similarly to how I used to launch with FAR: Start the turn pretty much as soon as I clear the launch clamps, and keep turning gradually while not straying too far away from my prograde.

[Bill Phil]

Or they could.. you know... not ruin the game by making the drag over the top.. it is the main thing that has frustrated so many people..

Even rockets are a struggle to keep under control now with the soup, gravity turns can not be started until 15km or so.. they had it fairly good in 1.0 why ruin it?

Or you could, you know, change your style to fit to the game. I'm fine with zero changes from 1.0.

Heck, I only had one mid air flip on a series of flights to orbit... That's less than my 1.0 number.

[Chaos_Klaus]

It was mandatory to deploy the uber chutes while there still was reentry heat going on.

That's just not true. Reentry was fine with 1.0. You could deploy the chutes way down. No problem. Planes going overly fast and large planes not having enough aerodynamic control, that was not cool.

Space Shuttles floating at 25m/s are also not cool. I experienced that myself. It just feels stupid. This is simply broken.

1.0.0 aero was balanced ok. Drag was a little low, but you could land planes reasonable speeds just fine if you deployed flaps on the main wings. That is how it is supposed to be! Drag chutes on shuttles made sense, aswell!

People claiming that SSTOs are broken are just wrong. Build different designs. Old SSTOs usually exploited the heavily overpowered TurboJets. That was basicly cheating. If those designs were sensible, there would be lots of SSTOs in real life. Ther aren't. I just built a quick Skylon type thingy yesterday that got into high kerbin orbit with payload and fuel to spare.

My criticism is that they did this massive change to the values that were well tweaked and balanced by the QA and Experimentals. I think they did it because of all the threads raging about SSTO reentry beeing impossible ... which is not true aswell. I think they overreacted and hope they find a middleground in the next patch.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Or they could.. you know... not ruin the game by making the drag over the top.. it is the main thing that has frustrated so many people..

Even rockets are a struggle to keep under control now with the soup, gravity turns can not be started until 15km or so.. they had it fairly good in 1.0 why ruin it?

I have no struggle at all...

[sal_vager]

Merged with existing thread, this topic is already causing a lot of contention and it's best if it all stays in one place.

[StainX]

I like the 1.0.0 aerodynamics more, so i stick with 1.0.0+Claw's bug fixes = success!

Edit... there is a cfg that downgrades aerodynamics to 1.0.0

Edited May 3, 2015 by StainX

[Whirligig Girl]

The main complaint I've seen is about the modified aero, which is more soupy than 1.0's.

There's a gif showing a shuttle with small wings landing.. at 25 m/s. It looks like it's floating.

To me it looks like that shuttle is falling about right, just that the game is lagging a bit. Glide slope looks roughly like -20 degrees to me.

[Temeter]

It's clearly moving downwards at 25m/s, and that only because stalling is a slow, continual process in KSPs new Atmo, you have enough time to counteract. In this case the shuttle touched ground shortly after starting the stall.

The gliding at very slow speeds was already there in KSP 1.0. Also, shuttles in KSP aren't a 100 Ton monster like the real ones and very light when empty.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Temeter

[foxkill2342]

I really think Squad should go back to 1.0 aerodynamics and make a tutorial on reentry. It's really not that hard, just don't re enter straight down at 3000m/s and your craft wont die, even without heat shields. I want my ship to blow up if it re enters at an angle that it should blow up. Whats the point of reentry heat if you can't die? I want to touchdown at 100+ m/s in my shuttle and use drag chutes to slow down. Nothing was wrong with 1.0 Aero. Why was something fixed that wasn't broken?

[rebark]

...shuttles in KSP aren't a 100 Ton monster like the real ones and very light when empty.

Well, yeah, but I think that the objective here is to make a 10 ton shuttle that's landing on the unrealistically small Kerbin behave comparably to a 100 ton shuttle landing on Earth. A lot of people have looked at that gif and concluded that whatever the underlying reasons, that behavior looks silly and floaty.

I absolutely agree that everyone needs to take a second and chill out - all this bitterness and salt are happening not in bad faith, but because we all love this game and don't want to feel like it's going in the wrong direction. The fact that there are some weird quirks with the 1.0.2 aero model means that it's very tempting to glom on to the "1.0.2 is STUPID and we HATE it" train if you're early on in the learning curve for the new model and haven't yet re-learned how to build stuff.

BUT, we should not be dismissing the potentially legitimate concerns that people have about the soupy, unnatural feel of flying in the new atmosphere, as well as the seemingly excessive reduction to re-entry heating that came with this latest update. Simply waving away these concerns with a 'git gud scrub' does very little good. The adjusted model in the hotfix has made flying feel less realistic than the 1.0 model for a lot of people, and I think that the drag buff was just overdone in reaction to a community backlash. Personally, I felt that 1.0 was fine, so I would push for veering back towards that, but I understand the desire for a little more atmosoup to avoid putting off newer players with catastrophic reentry heating. As has already been remarked on this thread, I feel sure that Squad will look over this on Monday and try to find a middle ground that more elegantly achieves what they wanted to accomplish with the hotfix.

Until then, yes, chill your chickadees, pacify your Paridae, and tranquilize your tits.

[Aerindel]

Whats the point of reentry heat if you can't die?

That WAS the problem with 1.0 as long as you had a parachute you couldn't die in reentry no matter what you did, heat shields or no. At least in 1.02 you can blow up if you come in too steep.