MechJeb: Cheating or not? The definitive thread/poll

[SpaceLaunchSystem]

This thread has been too much of a burden on me. I'm getting the moderators to close this thread.

So, I know there's somewhat of a light debate wether the MechJeb mod is 'cheating' or not. So here's a poll to figure it out once and for all!

Personally, I love the MechJeb mod. I believe that if it is to be considered 'cheating', than NASA has been 'cheating' for over 40 years.

BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO SAY I'M BEING BIASED:

I'm in no way trying to be biased in the poll. I'm simply using two common arguments for/against mechjeb, if you thing one is superior to the other, that's a matter of your personal opinion.

Edited May 9, 2015 by SpaceLaunchSystem

[Nothalogh]

I believe that if it is to be considered 'cheating', than NASA has been 'cheating' for over 40 years.

Basically this.

I use it in a semi automatic mode during ascent, because it can be a little wonky in atmosphere.

As for orbital maneuvers, it would be silly not to.

Remember, mechjeb is not magic, it won't build the ship for you, it won't make garbage fly, and it's only as good as the instructions you give it.

[nAssailant]

This question has been asked multiple times, and I do believe that it comes down to whatever you prefer. If you think it is cheating, dont use it. Otherwise, feel free.

Anyway, your poll wording is biased. I would say no, but I disagree with the logic you have bundled with that option, which makes me want to pick "yes", even though I don't think MechJeb is truly "cheating". A simple "Yes" and "No" option would not make either option appear the obvious choice.

Edited May 3, 2015 by nAssailant

[Dunbaratu]

Sigh, not this *again*. Another biased wording on another one of these polls. Most people who don't like to use MechJeb aren't doing so out of ignorance of the fact that real space programs use autopilots. It's out of the knowledge that software isn't sentient. It's a proxy for the thinking of the programmer who wrote it. If that human flies your ship well by the proxy of the program they wrote, that's *their* bragging rights, not yours. If that human flies the ship badly and crashes it by the proxy of the program they wrote, that's *their* blame, not yours.

That's the feeling that makes some people not want to use MechJeb, not an ignorance of the existence of autopilots, but rather the feeling that in this case the fully working autopilot is somebody else's accomplishment, not their own.

I really don't care one way or another if you use MechJeb. There's no such thing as "cheating" in a single-player game. But stop belittling people who don't, under the false implication that they're just ignorant of real life autopilots. For a lot of people the thing the Mechjeb authors are doing for them via the autopilot, is the very thing they want their own player agency over.

[SpaceLaunchSystem]

Sigh, not this *again*. Another biased wording on another one of these polls. Most people who don't like to use MechJeb aren't doing so out of ignorance of the fact that real space programs use autopilots. It's out of the knowledge that software isn't sentient. It's a proxy for the thinking of the programmer who wrote it. If that human flies your ship well by the proxy of the program they wrote, that's *their* bragging rights, not yours. If that human flies the ship badly and crashes it by the proxy of the program they wrote, that's *their* blame, not yours.

That's the feeling that makes some people not want to use MechJeb, not an ignorance of the existence of autopilots, but rather the feeling that in this case the fully working autopilot is somebody else's accomplishment, not their own.

I really don't care one way or another if you use MechJeb. There's no such thing as "cheating" in a single-player game. But stop belittling people who don't, under the false implication that they're just ignorant of real life autopilots. For a lot of people the thing the Mechjeb authors are doing for them via the autopilot, is the very thing they want their own player agency over.

I'm not being biased or trying to bash people who don't use MechJeb and related mods. I'm just using a common argument for​ mechjeb.

[WOODY01]

I think it is balanced rather well in career. If you are a new player by the time you should have figure out how to get to orbit then You unlock the node that lets mechjeb do it for you as an example.

I do not think it is cheating, I use it to launch reliable proven launch systems, I still handle new designs myself or any launch that has an awkward or heavy payload.

It almost exclusively handles burns for craft with ion engines.

I do use it for targeted landings sometimes, I usually do not allow it to land just get me close to the area then I take over. Just too many failed landings with it.

It also almost exclusively handles rendevous for me. I can do them I just find them a pain I would rather be done automatically.

[Blu_C]

I think the real thing that people have against MechJeb is that there is a feeling that people who use it only ever use it and don't try to learn how to do things on their own. Cannot say how true this is, but you can also equally argue that watching MechJeb do something (like a launch or landing) can let you learn how to do it yourself or that once you already know how to do stuff it can be nice to be able to just tell MechJeb to do it for you since you already know how to circularize things.

Personally I've been taking a different approach. While I like the idea that rockets can be automated (especially when using RemoteTech) I feel like there should be more involved than simply attaching a part and then having it do all the flying for me. So I've picked up kOS and written my own launch program (and am in the process of writing similar programs for other common operations). I really like this because although I now am slowly building an autopilot (for lack of a better term) it is one that I have cobbled together myself using the things I have figured out, which feels much more like a real space program to me. It also gives me the opportunity to have realistic launch failures as a result of bugs in my code or setting parameters incorrectly (such as when I accidentally told my rocket to fly to an apoptosis of 100 meters instead of 100km). It makes my whole space program feel significantly more real.

But then I also keep in mind that different people are playing the game for different things. I want a very hard, realistic approach to the game and run mods in an attempt to achieve that. Other people are more concerned with simply building a thing and getting it into orbit. They just want to see it in action and are less concerned with the actual flying. And then there are people who are more into testing their own ability to fly something even - or especially - when things go wrong. As long as the person is having fun doing it I'd say that they are playing the game properly according to their goals.

Seriously, why is there this big argument over how to play the game 'right?' Is it that horrible if someone is having fun playing the game in a way that is different from how you enjoy it?

[Borsek]

After about 100 hours flying ships by hand it gets boring, but the building of successful ships doesn't, so I fly mechjeb whenever I can, have flown waaay too much to keep doing it manually. Also it's a must-have for 200+ part launches, the lag makes maneuvering some craft unbearable if not impossible.

[Dunbaratu]

I'm not being biased or trying to bash people who don't use MechJeb and related mods. I'm just using a common argument for​ mechjeb.

My complaint is over this here:

Personally, I love the MechJeb mod. I believe that if it is to be considered 'cheating', than NASA has been 'cheating' for over 40 years.

Drawing this analogy is a bit insulting to NASA, because, well, let me give two sentences:

(1) "This is my autopilot, I get the credit and the blame for how it behaves."

(2) "This is someone else's autopilot. *They* get the credit and the blame for how it behaves".

Most of the time that "cheating" feeling that makes the people who don't want to use Mechjeb choose not to use it is (2) above, but the position NASA is in is much closer to (1). When you say that people's use of the word "cheating" is identical to claiming NASA has been cheating, you're downplaying the fact that NASA is much closer to (1) than (2). The AGC was a joint effort between NASA and MIT. If it didn't work, the blame would have been very much on NASA's head, because even though MIT did the all the underlying low level work, they did so to NASA's specs for what they wanted it to do, what math formulas it had to use, and so on.

NASA's position these last 40 years is much closer to being a member of the mechjeb dev team, than being a player downloading the ZIP and installing it without ever looking at the C# code.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Steven Mading

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

I don't care if you use MJ, but the whole "NASA does it" thing is stupid, NASA can't just download an autopilot off curseforge, they have to program them themselves.

[Tex_NL]

MechJeb is a tool, plain and simple. And I use it like a tool. I can launch a rocket or set a manoeuvre node manually if I wanted to but MechJeb does is quicker and often more efficient. But in other areas (docking and rendezvous for example) MechJeb makes a terrible mess and I prefer to do things by hand.

I often wonder what the so called 'purists' think about the stock SAS pilot skills. Do they use them? Of course they do, they are stock after all. Well, they are EXACTLY the same as MechJeb's Smart A.S.S. (Smart A.S.S. is way more accurate but that's a different story.) The 'purists' all called Smart A.S.S. 'cheating' but now that the same feature is stock ... Classical hypocrisy! If you don't like it, don't use it. But do NOT tell others how to play the game.

Personally I would prefer an optional MechJeb module that limit MechJeb's functionality to the pilot skill level. If that will ever be created I'd install it without hesitation.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't care if you use MJ, but the whole "NASA does it" thing is stupid, NASA can't just download an autopilot off curseforge, they have to program them themselves.

Neither can NASA download a new set of wings or engines.

I understand what you're going for but your analogy is flawed.

[Louella]

I use MechJeb, for "routine" contract missions, such as putting a satellite into orbit.

I need to take satellite contracts to get funds to do other things, the automation that MechJeb allows in reaching and matching orbits helps with these contracts.

I try not to use MechJeb for anything that I've never done before, myself. Like, the first rescue mission I did, I did the rendezvous myself. Thereafter, I put a MechJeb thingie on, to handle the routine things of getting into orbit.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Ohboyherewegoagain.jpg

[AndreyATGB]

Ah this discussion again . I use MJ because it has the most info I've ever seen, making KER look like a toy. Autopilot is too unreliable for me to use.

[sarbian]

hey, it been a long time since we had one thread about that ! So am I the less cheater of all ?

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

Ah this discussion again . I use MJ because it has the most info I've ever seen, making KER look like a toy. Autopilot is too unreliable for me to use.

I've compared the two, in recent updates KER was brought up to par.

[regex]

Definitely cheating.

Unless you're playing RO/RSS, in which case it's just realism.

[Nothalogh]

I don't care if you use MJ, but the whole "NASA does it" thing is stupid, NASA can't just download an autopilot off curseforge, they have to program them themselves.

Isn't that the purpose of espionage?

[Solarspaceprobe]

NASA has been 'cheating' for over 40 years.

Well, they have been, but not in piloting. Mostly by killing off competitors and being a political party instead of a space program in some ways...but I'm not saying they aren't made up of many great scientists and engineers, just that some of the administration has been far too political and that caused a lot of bad choices to be made....

[Drunken Hobo]

It's a singe-player game with no achievements, a full sandbox mode and easily-accessible cheat menu. You can play it any way you like. If you like playing a certain way and don't let anyone else's opinion bother you.

If you're looking for validation, MechJeb is useful for many things:

Learning the basics.

If you have a slow PC it hugely expands your options.

Flying insanely large/unrealistic ships.

If you don't like quicksaving/reverting (in my eyes far more "cheaty" than using an autopilot).

Docking easily.

Data.

Landing safely/efficiently.

Testing using a consistent take-off profile.

Accuracy - can get orbits absolutely perfect.

For adding missing features that really should be in the game (interplanetary windows, and in the past Smart A.S.S.)

Like a lot of popular things on the internet, people like to decry it in order to appear edgy & cool. Pay them no heed & enjoy what you enjoy. You're not hurting them or yourself.

[J.Random]

This horse is dead. Stop beating it. You monster.

[OrbitusII]

I don't see why MechJeb is a problem. It's a mod for a single player (I'm ignoring DMP here for argument's sake) game that arguably makes it more realistic by adding a highly-advanced autopilot.

I don't use MJ because I feel skilled enough to not need it and I enjoy doing things manually. I could use it despite these facts and there would still be no harm in it. Whether or not you use it, regardless of your skill level, what mods you have, and what you're doing in KSP is completely up to you.

To MechJeb, or not to MechJeb? Who really cares? This farce was all but dead last year.

Edited May 3, 2015 by OrbitusII

[Thomas988]

I don't believe in using MechJeb, just because I have way more fun doing everything manually than automated, not because it could be seen as cheating. Technically, you can't cheat in a single player game. If a person enjoys have things done for them, then that's how they should play it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thomas988

[PeterCFB]

Is SAS cheating? (admittedly SAS oversteers like a drunk driver and doesnt even turn in the correct direction)

I can fly to any and every planet under my own guidance... but after maybe 1000hrs of playing I kinda get bored of circulizing after flying the ascent by hand or piloting my own nodes. Other than that.. seeing what my DV is and the suicide burn timer really help for efficiency and guesstimating if I can make that extra maneuver or have to return home.

[19chickens]

I can't remember half of the direction keys and therefore can't dock, can't launch, can't play, essentially. For me though, building and exploding stuff's the real draw.