Is Normal career mode too hard?

[PatPL]

Actually "hard" is very easy if you get vessel to Mun to grind money.

[jarmund]

If you know what you're doing, I'd say "no", but with a footnote: It is not very economically forgiving about failed launches - You pretty much have to do multiple contracts with each craft to avoid any funds-grinding. A failed launch can be truly devastating as my rockets cost more than half of my Kash balance.

[Curveball Anders]

For someone who is new to the game? It's possible. For me, career on normal is very easy, but that's because I've been playing for a while.

The problem right now (post 1.0 and no longer "in early access") is that it's more than a little confusing for new players.

The in games tutorials doesn't help much and while the community provides tons of help it's quite a challenge to understand that differences between the versions.

I remember when I started a year ago I tried the demo and failed.

Found some very good tutorials (both in text and in video) and yet failed.

Since the stability system (command modules, SAS and such) for instance didn't work the same in the demo as in the (then current) game.

Now we have a game at 1.0.2, but with demos, tutorials, wiki(s) and a tons of threads which refers to different versions of the game.

And that's a tad confusing for someone who isn't used to KSP nor it's creative community.

[krillin678]

I feel the game with the new aero and engine debuff and drag that the overall game is a bit on the hard side. Then you add in the game's need for the "rolling pin of science"(which is not taught) I could see someone getting stuck in "Normal" for a very long time. Although, the actual difficulty of overcoming these problems is not hard in a typical sense but some would equate gindy as hard.

Edited May 3, 2015 by krillin678
edit would to could

[RSwordsman]

It is for me. I have a hard enough time on Science Sandbox as it is. Between the extremely frequent CTDs presumably from mods (trying out Scatterer and despite its flaws I want to keep it ) and game updates killing my modded saves, I just can't make any headway in conquering the system. I am loath to include reputation and funds into that.

[boborene]

Yes, too hard, and too hard is boring

[worir4]

I don't think the poll really represents the majority of players. I my self find it quite easy but long at the start.

Most people on the forums are already good at the game.

[magnemoe]

I play on moderate and find it pretty easy, two botlenecks, first was to update pad and wab to be able to do high return mun and minmus science missions second was to upgrade science facility to get the upper tire of the science tree but both was just to do some contracts and wait for others to cash in.

[DocMoriarty]

I find it too hard for new players. Players who have played it already before 1.0 and who know what the parts do and stuff might find it not too hard. Part of it is IMO the new research tree that in some details makes absolutely no sense. For example why do you get something as simple as the composites that late? Why are 1.25m and 2.5m (rockomax) parts mixed, especially tanks? Why do you get the bicoupler for 1.25m stuff that late when you need it in the very beginning? Makes absolutely no sense! That makes it very hard, especially for new players who aren't familiar with how the biomes work, to get enough science to unlock the stuff needed to get to Mun and Minmus and land there to start really collecting science.

[Falkenherz]

Too hard? I would rather say too much of a nuisance. I find I have to build rather absurd contraptions and invest a lot of time into absurd tasks in order to advance at all.

Examples, right from the beginning of a "moderate" career run:

- "Triple command pod" rocket in order to bring two tourists into suborbit

- Small fuel tanks stacked to a dozen in order to have a rocked achieve orbit

- EVA mission on the other side of Kerbal, at a polar, westward heading: No way a rocket is going to make it that precisely without endless reloads. Warping a plane @10km altitude destroys the tier1 landing gear and requires me to correct the heading every 7 seconds or so. Plus, the game crashed two times after about 20 minutes of boring flight time each

- Having access to the hitchhiker module but not to the same sized fuel tanks and engines: weirdest rocket design ever, highly unstable, to bring this just into LKO

- Science from crew reports or thermometers is halved when transmitted, so in order to be efficient you have to land back every time you took a measure/report

- Science generated at different buildings at the KSP; how absurd can it get yet?

- Testing a part in flight or landed generates 3 science. For just opening up one 45 point science node, this means 15 tests. Really?

Bottomline, career mode is certainly doable, but it feels like cheating or abusing weird game mechanics and submitting my precious little game time to grind.

Based on this experience (from about ten hours of game time) I have two suggestions:

- Science generation should be more transparent and less arbitrary (e.g. clear indication what generates science and more logic, i.e. remove KSP science readings).

- Contracts should be doable with the proper parts unlocked, e.g. no tourists-contract until you actually have proper passenger modules available, no Kerbal escape trajectory until you have engines and tanks to actually bring those tourists back safely

Edited May 4, 2015 by Falkenherz

[DocMoriarty]

@Falkenherz

You don't have to do every contract. Never did a tourist contract and also avoiding all the scan contracts that are not close to KSC. Also atmospheric part tests without air/spaceplane technology make no sense. The art is to pick contracts that *are doable* with your current technology. Though i agree that there could be some more reasonable doable contracts, also liked the 'get science from orbit' contracts as cash cows, don't seem to come that often. Also missing the 'explore Minmus' contract and the 'explore Duna' contract. They never appeared.

[Wanderfound]

While science grinding is certainly tedious, it's by no means necessary. You get enough science from a single Mun run that the tiny scraps of science around KSC aren't worth bothering with.

Current career progression, restarted after the release of 1.0.2:

Flight 1: altitude records, atmospheric and grounded goo pods and crew reports.

Flight 2: suborbital hop, crew reports and goo pods from space.

Flight 3: orbit, Science Jr and temperature scans from space.

Flight 4: Munar flyby, assorted science in high Kerbin and Munar space.

Flight 5: Munar landing, bulk science.

From then on, science pretty much looks after itself while I go about my business; just grab it whenever convenient, and throw up another Mun/Minmus lander if you need a bit in a hurry.

All science returned rather than transmitted; if you're bringing a Kerbal home anyway, she may as well go and collect the goo results etc. before reentry. You're still reentering with just a bare pod.

If you get stuck for science in there somewhere, ye olde RT-10/Stayputnik/Science Jr/parachute method is a much faster way of collecting easy science than driving around KSC. Fire one into the ocean, one into the mountains, one over the desert, one into the grasslands...

[Falkenherz]

@DocMoriarty: Thanks for the tip to skip contracts, but this seems to also be an absurd game mechanic, using the contract selection like a roulette until a "fitting" contract pops up. It would make much more sense if you could choose and specialize on certain activities like testing, exploring, scientific or tourist missions. Right now I find I have to take the "cheapest option", but I would rather like to take the for me "most interesting" option.

I knew I was doing a mistake by fulfilling the "get into orbit" achievement. At that moment, the offered contracts became suddenly much more demanding, and less well payed than before, requiring equipment that I cannot hope to unlock and thus require most of the time some weird workarounds.

@wanderfound: how much science did you have after those 5 flights? I am stuck with having opened every 45 point node and one 90 point node, but did not do your flights 4+5. How much science did those last two get you? Besides, space EVA needs two upgrades to buildings first, so some kind of grind for money had to preceed that option?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Falkenherz

[Cailean_556]

For someone new to the game, I can see why they'd be asking this question. I'm no KSP God, I still can't eyeball a successful Munar intercept, but I can freehand a reasonable Kerbin orbit.

I know people - people I consider smarter than me - that have had (and some still are having) difficulty even maintaining an orbit. This learning curve can be easily rectified by watching some Youtube vids or even playing the tutorials (though I never did...except for docking, and the Mun flight: to see if anything had changed dramatically in 1.0.2.

With the ability to customise your difficulty settings, you can minimise the penalties and maximise the rewards but the stock 'Easy' mode could be considered 'difficult'.

Getting science is perhaps my only gripe really and it's not even really a gripe, you can get enough to get you going if you know how/where to go about it (and with what tools). I feel that the newly revised strategies (especially for science) don't provide enough incentive to use them early-game, as getting a yield of 1 science for every 12,000 funds is in most cases a negligible result for early contracts until you start visiting other planets - getting to the technological point where such missions (with return) are possible can feel like a bit of a grind.

I rely on unmanned craft to conduct most of my planetary survey/temperature readout type missions, as well as testing experimental designs: the risk of losing a kerbonaut is too great, given the cost of hiring new Kerbals. (I think the cost could be randomised based on their courage and stupidity myself but I don't mind the current exponential-type increase). Poor Bill... Maybe landing a liquid fuel booster at a 45 degree side-ways angle doing 87m/s was a bad idea... Being an engineer, he should have known that... He will be remembered when the "Bill Kerman Orbital Station" (BKOS) is launched and operational... His replacement, Jesise Kerman, has yet to go to space but she will...in due time...

Edited May 4, 2015 by Cailean_556

[WWEdeadman]

Hell no, it's ridiculously easy to play, really...

[Wanderfound]

@wanderfound: how much science did you have after those 5 flights? I am stuck with having opened every 45 point node and one 90 point node, but did not do your flights 4+5. How much science did those last two get you? Besides, space EVA needs two upgrades to buildings first, so some kind of grind for money had to preceed that option?

All of the 45's are open, five of the 90's. EVA only requires a single upgrade to the astronaut complex; √75,000 on standard difficulty (Mission Planning is the thing that requires both Mission Control and the Tracking Station to be upgraded). EVA sharply accelerates your science gathering; just hanging onto the outside of a capsule, collecting and storing EVA reports over different biomes as you orbit Kerbin can deliver quite a bit.

A single Munar landing and return will deliver a couple of hundred science points; if you hop around biomes while you're up there, you can multiply that. A Science Jr returned from the Mun is worth about 100 science all by itself.

Raising funds is all about efficient design and stacking missions. None of your early rockets should cost more than √40,000 (and that's for a Munshot, LKO stuff can be done for half of that), and you should be trying to fulfil multiple contracts with every flight. Don't just fly to orbit, test a part on the launchpad, collect science from space and rescue a Kerbal or something while you're up there. Flight #6 involved completing four "rescue Kerbal" missions (and the "rendezvous in space" one) in a single launch.

There's currently about √500,000 in the bank, but I just blew half a million upgrading the R&D centre. Launchpad, Tracking Station, Astronaut Complex, Mission Control, Admin Building, R&D and the VAB are all at level 2.

Obviously, I've been playing this game for a while. But the basic principles hold whether it's a new player or an advanced one.

[Superfluous J]

While science grinding is certainly tedious, it's by no means necessary. You get enough science from a single Mun run that the tiny scraps of science around KSC aren't worth bothering with.

Current career progression, restarted after the release of 1.0.2:

Flight 1: altitude records, atmospheric and grounded goo pods and crew reports.

...

Flight 5: Munar landing, bulk science.

I'm finding it fairly similar. My first launch was a hop over the VAB into the grasslands using tier-1 stuff. Launch 2 was an orbit with goos and jrs and lots of EVA reports. I had a couple test launches that I don't count, as they were tests to see how much dV I needed to just reach space, and launch 3 was for fun to try the tourism contract. Launch 4 actually did that tourism contract (I blame a non-updated KER ) and my 5th launch was to land on Mun.

Money and science don't seem to be a problem, so long as you are a stickler to get all the science and do as many contracts in each launch as you can, and keep expanding where you go.

[magnemoe]

@Falkenherz

You don't have to do every contract. Never did a tourist contract and also avoiding all the scan contracts that are not close to KSC. Also atmospheric part tests without air/spaceplane technology make no sense. The art is to pick contracts that *are doable* with your current technology. Though i agree that there could be some more reasonable doable contracts, also liked the 'get science from orbit' contracts as cash cows, don't seem to come that often. Also missing the 'explore Minmus' contract and the 'explore Duna' contract. They never appeared.

This, also bundle them, you can reuse satellites if they are launched after contract signing and has dV enough for mission.

Tourist contracts don't pay well compared to satellites.

You can store science in pod, you don't get much science from contracts anymore. doing an Mun flyby optional orbit with goo and material lab thermometer and barometer give good initial science.

Then do an Minmus mission, unlock surface samples for this and it brings back 2-3000 science. Remember to use an scientist so he can reset goo and labs.

Minmus is very nice as you can do most biomes at the dV cost of one Mun landing and return.

[Falkenherz]

Thanks for all the hints. So I should have upgraded for EVAs already. Right now, the missions seem to be too tough for the science I have accumulated so far, so I will now concentrate on EVAs. I have about 700k cash, and just recently upgraded my science outsourcing strategy from 5% to 25%. I wish I had done this earlier. My early cash cow was those suborbital tourist hopping, with a "SSTSo" it netted me about >30k for two tourists each launch. Now, after having achieved orbit, they all want to go orbit, which is considerably more expensive and thus brings less profit than before...

[Randazzo]

I restarted a new career just to give 1.0.2 a try. My sixth flight was orbital, the previous five necessary to get enough science for the flight control node. With the 1.0 atmosphere wreaking havoc on mechjeb (which has since undergone many revisions and much hard work - Thanks Sarbian!) I was forced to (GASP!) fly my own ascents and as a result I've gotten relatively good at it (again). In my 1.0 started career, it took me about a dozen flights to get orbital.

It wasn't until just after the first orbital flight that I hit a funk, and it's repeating itself again. I consider myself fairly industrious at gathering science, but between the orbital flight and reaching the mun, there is a (dull, boring, difficult, grindy - pick your favorite) period where you get pretty close to running out of science options without buying upgrades (which may not be an evident solution to new players). I realize that there will inevitably be at least a dozen people who want to pop up and defend their right to enjoy periods of stagnation (and label it something heroic), but this could easily deter some players. In fact, I can easily see how researching the "wrong" nodes or spending money on the wrong things at this point could lead to being stuck. I've actually seen a few threads on that issue. Granted, that's not an unrealistic possibility for a space program.

I don't necessarily think it's too "hard" so much as that there are bottlenecks that could easily confuse and deter new players, with little guidance to get them around it. And let's face it, coming to these forums with a problem lately only results in a bunch of people responding about how awesome they are without offering much help and maybe a few sympathizers.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Randazzo

[Caelib]

The early game is a little bit grindy - meaning you really need to get creative for science gain, but I don't think it's hard. If anything, I think this approach works because it forces the player to do something besides unlock the entire tech tree without leaving Kerbin's SOI.

[Wanderfound]

Thanks for all the hints. So I should have upgraded for EVAs already. Right now, the missions seem to be too tough for the science I have accumulated so far, so I will now concentrate on EVAs. I have about 700k cash, and just recently upgraded my science outsourcing strategy from 5% to 25%. I wish I had done this earlier. My early cash cow was those suborbital tourist hopping, with a "SSTSo" it netted me about >30k for two tourists each launch. Now, after having achieved orbit, they all want to go orbit, which is considerably more expensive and thus brings less profit than before...

Give that "collect EVA reports from every biome you fly over" trick a go. There's quite a lot of science in that (but remember you need to right-click the capsule and store the data after each one, to avoid overwriting the previous reports).

If you've got any sort of probe core, a one-way trip to the Mun or Minmus can be done for very little expense. Once you're in low Kerbin orbit (LKO), it's only about another 1,000ÃŽâ€V to hit either, and you can easily get that range from a small fuel tank and an LV-909. The probe itself should be nothing but probe core, battery, a couple of solar panels and a limited amount of science gear (one or two each of Science Jrs and Goo pods, thermometers if you've got 'em). With a payload this light, it takes very little push to get it going.

You'll have to transmit if it's a one-way probe (so take an antenna, and be sure to aim your solar at the sun before transmitting), but some science is better than none. And, with a bit of finesse, you can make it into a return trip for roughly the same ÃŽâ€V budget (i.e. a free return transfer, as used by the Apollo missions).

If you're not experienced at navigating transfers to the Mun, there's an easy way to do it: just put yourself into an equatorial LKO (anything between 70 and 150km altitude should do), wait for the Mun to rise (from the point of view of the ship) and then start burning prograde. Terminate the burn when the apoapsis reaches the Mun's altitude and you should be on your way.

PS: if you haven't already seen 'em, I'd highly recommend Scott Manley's latest tutorial series. It's aimed right at the stuff you're doing now.

[Falkenherz]

Yeah, thanks. I don´t have solar panels yet, though, one of the things why I am stuck science wise, but I am optimistic that the EVA missions will give me now my sorely needed science points. I still maintain that it should be a bit more intuitive for new players of how and where to get science points. Mission contracts about exactly this, poppoing up at the right moment, would be really helpful.

[Hyomoto]

I play on whatever the settings are for 'hard' minus the save and revert (thanks bugs!) restrictions, and I can say the first portion is a bit grindy but at the same time that's the point of career. Many people have been vocal about being able to launch one mission and unlock enough science to open up half the tree, most career players probably enjoy this like Caelib said. If you hate the 'grind' you could always give yourself a boost to science out of the gate, improve your science returns or maybe just play science instead of career. On hard, my biggest restriction has been needing the cash to unlock parts as well as upgrade facilities to actually plan missions to places to get science, rather than science itself. Then again, I like playing Kerbal Space Program, the missions are more to give me an excuse to do something, so I don't see them as a 'grind' anyways. Sure, I'm going to the Mun to get science, but also because planning a mission to the Mun is fun.

As for strategy, Kerbin is a grindy place for science because you either have to launch a lot of missions or you have to run long missions with planes (being limited to 4x warp and all). So the first 'wellspring' for science is going to be the Mun. There are great contracts for the Mun because there is no atmosphere. Put yourself into a polar orbit and take survey contracts. With simple altitude and attitude adjustments you'll pass over every location and from that you can really rake in the funds as well as get a bonus to your science since crew reports and temperature readings can both be transmitted. If you have EVA unlocked, you can also get a lot of EVA biome reports as well. It gives a great reason to keep someone in orbit and to run a legitimate multi-day mission. This is why I like contracts, they give an incentive to go to a place and do something, rather than just land, take a reading and blast off again.

After a while you can start combining missions. Keep one Kerbal in orbit to handle survey contracts, and lands someone else on the ground to take samples and possible do surface surveys as well. Man, I love KSP, you've just fired up my engines to go play it some more!

[Silanda]

Too hard, not really, at least not if you know what you're doing. It can be a bit grindy though. That being said, I do think the career mode (especially, but not exclusively, the tech tree) needs some rebalancing in order to make it more useful as a learning tool for people new to the game.