[1.0.4] Maritime Pack - 0.1.4

[Tbone2142]

Hi Tbone,

I fully understand you're not being pushy but it's time I kinda explained how my brain is working. So, here's a long answer.

In the many hours of research I've done on this lil project I've come up with a gazillion ideas. Since there's only two of us actually working on ship mods, the field is wide open so there's gobs of parts that could be created. And yes, all of the things you have mentioned have been investigated and considered. However, I know first hand that InfiniteDice isn't creating any new parts. His RL obligations are making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to maintain his own mod (Boat Parts). So that means, at the moment, I'm the only person actively working on anything maritime for KSP. I can sum it up this way...

Soooo many parts... Soooo little time.

So, here's how I prioritize what I'm doing next:

1. I have fun. If I cease to have fun, you cease to get parts. If you cease to get parts, you cease to have fun.

Dice told me that one of the issues he had with Boat Parts was that he ceased to have fun because he was spending more time filling requests rather than bringing to life what was in his head. I took that advice seriously. So, I'm trying to balance what I want vs. what everyone else wants.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE suggestions and hope they keep coming. But, that being said, the core of Maritime is complete and the Clipper is just that. And already, with the paddlewheelers (something I wanted + a very early request to transport lots of Kerbals) the core pack is over 40 parts. So, I have to consider fun factor vs increasing the pack size as well.

Next, I have to consider function vs need. Yes, I'd love to add in some more superstructure parts and that's in the idea book. But right now, the boats work without them. Adding in superstructure parts or stealth hulls would only be eye candy. While I like cool looking ships, I'm trying to focus on functional first. So, to answer in turn:

1. V shaped hulls - Using stock physics, it's not gonna happen. Flotation works on the amount of surface area contacting and below the surface. V hulls end up akin to balancing a pencil on it's tip. But a fix is being worked on.

2. Superstructure, specifically military - I love blowing people and things up. Just not in KSP. I know others do. I spoke to the guys who are creating the new guns based on the Maritime Pack hull size and offered them the opportunity to have one of my models to base their designs on. I suggested that they focus on military while I focus on civilian maritime pursuits. They have not gotten back to me. I know they were considering working on boat hulls. I wish them luck in that little endeavor.

3. Stealth - While a lot of the new boat designs out there look really cool, like stealth, for the moment, it would just be an eye candy part since there's no radar to avoid. Sorry, not real high on my priority list.

So, now that I've basically tossed all of your suggestions into the proverbial garbage, let me hopefully cause you to raise an eyebrow with what has become my latest inspiration for the Maritime Pack.

Ah, ok. I understand what you're saying, I'd rather you have fun and further develop the mod than have to incorporate every single idea that I have. I didn't intend my ideas to be a necessity for the mod, I'm just the kind of person who likes to get ideas out there. Believe me, I would love to make these things myself, while I'm not bad with the coding but terrible with large 3D models (and I also have plans to make weapons for BDArmory). But, with hints that there might be military hull in the future, I'm happy with that and I'm quite interested in what you have to bring next. cheers.

P.S. How do I embed a link into my signature picture?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tbone2142

[Fengist]

Ah, ok. I understand what you're saying, I'd rather you have fun and further develop the mod than have to incorporate every single idea that I have. I didn't intend my ideas to be a necessity for the mod, I'm just the kind of person who likes to get ideas out there. Believe me, I would love to make these things myself, while I'm not bad with the coding but terrible with large 3D models (and I also have plans to make weapons for BDArmory). But, with hints that there might be military hull in the future, I'm happy with that and I'm quite interested in what you have to bring next. cheers.

P.S. How do I embed a link into my signature picture?

Np, keep the ideas coming. Don't let me being stubborn stop you.

I embed the SIGPIC tag inside a URL tag

[Tanya Sapien]

Yes, I did. I'll put it this way. While I'm not quite ready to discuss or reveal the magic going on behind the curtain, if 'he' can pull this off, it'll change buoyancy as we know it.

I feel a presence...a presence I haven't felt since...

[Fengist]

I feel a presence...a presence I haven't felt since...

Well I gave plenty of hints

[Tanya Sapien]

After giving it some thought, I thinking about blowing the dust off something.

Ages ago, Snjo was helping me to work on a steampunk mod. I ended up getting overwhelmed, but I retained a lot of the lessons I learned along the way. With community resources, and now vanilla Ore, the land is fertile, and two things in this thread got me thinking. That sail boat prototype and the airship boat delivery system. I'm thinking Guns Of Icarus style steampunk airships.

I'm feeling an itch to get back into working on that mod. I originally had visions of throttle being tied to boiler flame, with the heat of the boiler dictating steam flow and therefor thrust, meaning that your speed response would be on a delay and running the boilers too hot would make them explode. After some thought I've decided this is needlessly complex.

Your approach, however, looks interesting.

I was thinking if Infinite is too busy, I could step in and help a bit. I'm not making promises, it's been two years since I even touched the code of this game, and I remember having a lot of difficulty in getting the Squad code to inject properly into the parts, but if I could come up with some functional hardware, it needs branding, and I was thinking having it be a parts pack for your mod would be a good way to do it.

With your permission, I'd like to get to work on making some steampunk hardware.

Related note, I don't know what the fix for V hulls is you were mentioning, but a quick and dirty fix I can think of, which is what I had in mind for mine and how I stabilize my taller ships; keels. Just make a mesh variant of the compressed water holder that's flat and semi-cylindrical and with a far higher crash tolerance.

So yeah, I think I'm gonna go reinstall blender and poke around my old folders to see if I can find my old data.

EDIT: Damn. I knew I lost some data, I just didn't know the project files were among it. All of my work on the old steampunk mod was lost, I'll be starting completely from scratch.

EDIT 2: I've never been happier to have a poor organizational system. I found a few files I'd moved to a different folder to work on. I was able to recover the mesh and textures for the MkI boiler and the mesh for the flux turbine. everything else is still gone, but at least I have something to start on.

EDIT 3:

a month and a half of work.

and that's all that remains of it

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tanya Sapien

[WolfAngriff]

Hi, thanx for the answer, that's what i was thinking about. Sometimes, as i live in Brest, France, a ship called "Monge" stays at the harbor. I'll look if she's there tomorrow, and i could try to get some pictures if it could help. I have'nt found any picture of the soviet ship that followed Sputnik, but it could be a good idea to look at too.

And yes, the game is a hard addiction, and i think the forum won't be better... ;-)

[Fengist]

Hi, thanx for the answer, that's what i was thinking about. Sometimes, as i live in Brest, France, a ship called "Monge" stays at the harbor. I'll look if she's there tomorrow, and i could try to get some pictures if it could help. I have'nt found any picture of the soviet ship that followed Sputnik, but it could be a good idea to look at too.

And yes, the game is a hard addiction, and i think the forum won't be better... ;-)

I think you mean this one:

Once I get around to making actual larger hulls, something like this is possible. However, making the dishes would be a bit out of my bailiwick. That and it would really only work with the one mod. Squad has yet to really introduce communications though it's been batted around a good bit.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Fengist

[crasher925]

i just cant wait for a massive ship of the line where is that on your list anyway?

[Fengist]

Well, that depends on which one you're referring to. If, by ship of the line, you mean sails... somewhere around 3 or 4. But I have already attempted testing sails and it's not going to be as easy as I suspected. I know how to make it work, it's a matter of figuring out, get this, solar panels.

If, by ship of the line, you mean bigger cargo ships...

From the R&D department:

Catamarans are coming. BUT... it's going to require you to rethink ship design. Unlike monohulls, which flex a bit but are still pretty stable, catamarans are a floppy mess if you build them wrong. Because parts in KSP only attach to one node at a time and because catamarans are going to have multiple nodes, connect them wrong and it'll be like sailing jello.

Not to worry, I'll provide a tutorial on building a rigid catamaran when they come out, which hopefully, will be the next release.

Ok, so it's not massive but, it is bigger than one hull.

[colmo]

I recall Infinite Dice's advice for his carrier for the same reason: "strut everything".

I suggested that some parts use auto-strutting to beef up rigidity - such a thing has been used before, such as in Procedural Fairings mod, and a pontoon mod from way back.

The simplest part I can think of would be a central beam with auto strut points at increments along its length. Anything belonging to the same craft parallel to those points would get strutted automatically, even if connected to another part.

There's also chat on the KAS thread about welding ports, a kind of one-use docking port to increase physical connections in complex structures.

[TinyPirate]

Hi Fengist! Here's my 2 Minute Mod video about your mod. Enjoy!

[smjjames]

Well, that depends on which one you're referring to. If, by ship of the line, you mean sails... somewhere around 3 or 4. But I have already attempted testing sails and it's not going to be as easy as I suspected. I know how to make it work, it's a matter of figuring out, get this, solar panels.

If, by ship of the line, you mean bigger cargo ships...

Pretty sure he meant these.

Edit: Noticed some Star Trek ships in there, you can ignore those.

Edited September 2, 2015 by smjjames

[Fengist]

I recall Infinite Dice's advice for his carrier for the same reason: "strut everything".

I suggested that some parts use auto-strutting to beef up rigidity - such a thing has been used before, such as in Procedural Fairings mod, and a pontoon mod from way back.

The simplest part I can think of would be a central beam with auto strut points at increments along its length. Anything belonging to the same craft parallel to those points would get strutted automatically, even if connected to another part.

There's also chat on the KAS thread about welding ports, a kind of one-use docking port to increase physical connections in complex structures.

Exactly. Dice told me it took him a month to figure out the best way to build his carrier so that it didn't fall apart. While my catamarans will take some re-thinking in the design stages (you'll need to build it deck first), they won't be that difficult. The one you see in that pic has just 2 struts across the bow sections, and I easily hit 100m/s + with it, did some hard turns and it stayed together.

As far as coding for struts to be automatically added in...

Squad could easily make multiple nodes connect. But they choose not to. One of the things that keeps people coming back to this game is the fact they try to overcome failures in design While this means some designs will inherently fail, once you get it right, it's pretty solid. Catamarans will fall into that category. At present, I have no plans to code in any automatic strutting. There are welding mods and enhanced struts and mods that improve connection nodes already. To me, those steals half the fun of the game of figuring out how to make it work within the confines of the game rules. I classify them in the same category as MechJeb, they have all the fun.

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Hi Fengist! Here's my 2 Minute Mod video about your mod. Enjoy!

And one of the first questions on this thread was how to get a boat to water. You just provided one of the more unique solutions to that problem. Thanks and well done. Link added to the OP's video list.

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Pretty sure he meant these.

Edit: Noticed some Star Trek ships in there, you can ignore those.

Yea, that's what I thot he meant but I used it as an opportunity to reveal what's coming. To more fully answer him: Sailing is a dream I've had all my life. Living in Iowa, this is about as close as I could ever get.

So, one of my original goals was to create sailing ships. If I can't sail IRL, I'll sail in KSP. So yes, it's high on my list of things to do, just not my immediate list.

[adsii1970]

I have always loved this mod but since the 1.4a update, I am having a slight problem. I had to "recall" all my ships because the helipad stern no longer had the engines built into them. I added the new engines - launched a test ship, and once I jettisoned the deployment system - NOTHING. I can hear the engines running - but no speed. The ship just sat there. Any suggestions?

[Fengist]

I have always loved this mod but since the 1.4a update, I am having a slight problem. I had to "recall" all my ships because the helipad stern no longer had the engines built into them. I added the new engines - launched a test ship, and once I jettisoned the deployment system - NOTHING. I can hear the engines running - but no speed. The ship just sat there. Any suggestions?

Yep, I gave a bunch of warnings on this thread that saved ships were going to get busted. That was part of getting the engines off the old hulls.

My first guess... do you have rudders or anything else mounted directly behind the engines? If so, it's blocking the thrust. Another thing to check is right click on the engine and make sure it's producing thrust.

[ThatOneBritishGuy...]

​So first off, as always huge respect to you Fengist.

Now the squeaky gears part. At the moment the mod is hugely unoptimized. 100MB of data, as compared with Mk2 expansions which only takes up 7.5MB and has just as many parts. Now don't get me wrong, I love this mod but I think it could do with some optimization. Cheers.

Again sorry if this sounds brisk or crude, I just meant to point your attention at the high memory usage.

[adsii1970]

Yep, I gave a bunch of warnings on this thread that saved ships were going to get busted. That was part of getting the engines off the old hulls.

My first guess... do you have rudders or anything else mounted directly behind the engines? If so, it's blocking the thrust. Another thing to check is right click on the engine and make sure it's producing thrust.

Yes, rudders mounted directly behind the engines... And yes, engines are producing thrust. If the rudders cannot go in front of the screws, as is in reality, then do I abandon double rudders and mount a single one in between the screws?

As a side note, I absolutely love this mod. Been using it since the first edition was released. Will share the older vessel (once refitted) and my newer one once i get them operational.

[Fengist]

​So first off, as always huge respect to you Fengist.

Now the squeaky gears part. At the moment the mod is hugely unoptimized. 100MB of data, as compared with Mk2 expansions which only takes up 7.5MB and has just as many parts. Now don't get me wrong, I love this mod but I think it could do with some optimization. Cheers.

Again sorry if this sounds brisk or crude, I just meant to point your attention at the high memory usage.

And I knew this would come. First, I have complaints that my textures suck and people want BIGGER stuff. So, I up the resolutions, redo old textures, learn about converting to dds to save load times, make an effort to improve the new parts textures and plan for even more memory gobbling meshes and textures and bumpmaps on even larger ships.... and then... the opposite complaint. Now my textures are too large and eating too much memory. Forgive me if I sound brusk, but I've been expecting this but not with nearly this much lack of tact. Yes, there is definitely room for improvement and eventually I will get around to it but this has me realizing that when I do there will probably be a complaint about that. I hope when I do get that complaint that the individual who does so chooses their words a little more carefully than you.

Here's something to keep in mind. The date on this thread is June 10th. That means, prior to June 1st I had created exactly one part as a result of a tutorial I read. You sir, are comparing the results my 3 months of part time modding experience with nothing more than a basic tutorial on Wings 3D and Google for an education to someone who creates mods professionally, has hours to spend on it every day and is paid well for the effort.

For those of you who follow this thread and have now had to see my venomous side, I apologize for this abrupt rant and I apologize for being overly defensive (sensitive) of what I've created. I considered multiple times not even responding, but the wording of this post, comparing me to PorkJet, just felt like a slap in the face.

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Yes, rudders mounted directly behind the engines... And yes, engines are producing thrust. If the rudders cannot go in front of the screws, as is in reality, then do I abandon double rudders and mount a single one in between the screws?

As a side note, I absolutely love this mod. Been using it since the first edition was released. Will share the older vessel (once refitted) and my newer one once i get them operational.

Do I know my mod or what? I had a suspicion you had the rudder behind the engine. It's the same with stock aircraft engines. If you mount engines behind one another or you try to mount them in a series, the ones in front get blocked. My solution, and yes, I discovered this by doing exactly what you did and scratching my head, is to mount a rudder in the middle. If I feel the need for more than one rudder, those you can mount in series but I usually just mount them close together near the center of the hull. You might even try mounting one on the bow. Remember, hydrodynamics in real water and hydrodynamics in KSP have exactly one thing in common... color.

Glad you're enjoying it.

[adsii1970]

Do I know my mod or what? I had a suspicion you had the rudder behind the engine. It's the same with stock aircraft engines. If you mount engines behind one another or you try to mount them in a series, the ones in front get blocked. My solution, and yes, I discovered this by doing exactly what you did and scratching my head, is to mount a rudder in the middle. If I feel the need for more than one rudder, those you can mount in series but I usually just mount them close together near the center of the hull. You might even try mounting one on the bow. Remember, hydrodynamics in real water and hydrodynamics in KSP have exactly one thing in common... color.

Glad you're enjoying it.

Yep, sure am. Just had the ship in the water, jettisoned the transport, and was in the trimming stage when Steam crashed! I know for a fact it was a Steam crash because as soon as I was thrown out of KSP I did receive the message that Steam had to restart because of a new update. It has a way of choosing the worst time to update. Now I have to launch the vessel all over again

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K.N.S. Zebulon Kerman - Patrol ship at launch

[Please note, I am using StarVision's mod, Flag Decals and Flagpole which inverts the flag on the pole, which is why my flag is reversed in this album.]

An interesting idea hit me as I was reading through the forum before I posted my comment - since the whole purpose of an air brake is to create an un-aerodynamic edge to increase drag, and since the oceans are really nothing more than condensed soup, why not use the air brakes on the keel of the ship to create a deploy-able drag surface? So far, it works quite well.

Edited September 3, 2015 by adsii1970

[Fengist]

An interesting idea hit me as I was reading through the forum before I posted my comment - since the whole purpose of an air brake is to create an un-aerodynamic edge to increase drag, and since the oceans are really nothing more than condensed soup, why not use the air brakes on the keel of the ship to create a deploy-able drag surface? So far, it works quite well.

Hummm, and since air brakes can now be used as crude rudders.... hummmm.

[Thatdude253]

Hummm, and since air brakes can now be used as crude rudders.... hummmm.

I tried that out a few times. Didn't work out to well, they usually broke

[crasher925]

when i say ship of the line I mean something like this:

I understand its a HUGE undertaking Im just excited to have one

also are you thinking about doing submarines?

Edited September 3, 2015 by crasher925

[smjjames]

Hey Fiengst, while doing my Laythe circumnavigation challenge, I'm finding myself plagued with a wierd listing issue where I have a negative roll (as in torque) value which I can't get rid of and seems to be getting worse with time, it's been giving me some real problems.

I know an outrigger would help, but I would if I could fit one on.

[adsii1970]

I tried that out a few times. Didn't work out to well, they usually broke

I didn't use mine as rudders, but as underwater brakes. I made the mistake of having them toggle with the brakes (the method I use to get ships to the water) on a rover, and as soon as the first attempt made it to the end of the KSC runway and began the downward slope, I hit the brakes at the time it was leveling out - and blew out everything under the bow of the ship. *sigh* Another lesson learned...

I placed mine under the bow and staggered in a pattern of two rows, the first row only has two air brakes, the second row has three but the center one is offset to the rear of the two in the second row. Once the ship has slowed to 70m/s, it is reasonably safe to deploy all of them at once... and there's sufficient enough drag created that you can rapidly see the speed drop - and if you reverse your engines while you do it, you may not be able to stop on a dime, but you can slow it a lot quicker.

[Fengist]

I tried that out a few times. Didn't work out to well, they usually broke

That is fixable.

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when i say ship of the line I mean something like this:

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/955/955601/naval-warfare-makes-a-splash-in-empire-total-war-20090224032229391.jpg

I understand its a HUGE undertaking Im just excited to have one

also are you thinking about doing submarines?

Think something closer to this.

And to answer your question...

Shhhh... don't tell anyone! It's a secret.

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Hey Fiengst, while doing my Laythe circumnavigation challenge, I'm finding myself plagued with a wierd listing issue where I have a negative roll (as in torque) value which I can't get rid of and seems to be getting worse with time, it's been giving me some real problems.

I know an outrigger would help, but I would if I could fit one on.

The only thing that comes to mind is the same problem most every circumnavigation has had... saves and reloads going nuts. Part misalignments, etc. AFAIK, no one has done any long term work with boats where quicksaves and reloads happen frequently. I have no idea what can possibly happen. I know if some of the same game mechanics resulting from saves affect boats as do land vehicles, anything is possible. Keep me posted. I'll be interested in learning the cause of this.