RAPIERs and Turbojets are amazing in 1.0.3

[Bomaye]

2. Turbo-RAM-Jet: Awesome nice afterburner effect. However, the SR-71 only used them to take off. Doh! It seems they are much more balanced now.

The SR-71 used afterburner all the time, it was just that the rotary part of the engine became a drag item at Mach 3

[eorin]

New drag and rebalanced turbojets are good imho, in 1.02 my YF-12 could reach 950 km/h at sea level, now the same craft can reach 1000 km/h.

Plus OMG look at those afterburners!!!!

[Fenris]

New drag and rebalanced turbojets are good imho, in 1.02 my YF-12 could reach 950 km/h at sea level, now the same craft can reach 1000 km/h.

Plus OMG look at those afterburners!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/YbXavJ8.png

Is that stock except for the paint job? I love the SR-71 but am only using stock parts right now.

[eorin]

Is that stock except for the paint job? I love the SR-71 but am only using stock parts right now.

Sure all stock (color from kerbpaint)

here it is the link

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/120517-REPLICA-NEW-YF-12A-Version-2-By-Eorin-1-0

[Warzouz]

nice plane !

[Jon144]

Your B-52 replica ought to be using basic jets... the real deal doesn't use ramjets either! Its 8 engines have a mere 75 kN thrust each, and it has a maximum level airspeed of 282 m/s.

It is true. But that means I have to resort to clipping the regular jet engines. Before I used turbojets as a part count saving measure. It is already in the 300's

I have not tested it in the new version but in 1.0.2 it couldn't even break 200 with the tubojets.

Now in 1.0.4 it cant even break 150 in level flight with turbojets

Edited June 23, 2015 by Jon144

[Captain H@dock]

Cruising at 1550 m/s at 24,000 meters is just fantastic and makes for a ridiculously quick and efficient transition period into orbit, SSTOs just became a lot more practical from what I can see. Turbojets also became similarly improved, i was noticing them capping out between 1300 and 1400 m/s at 22,000 meters; their new graphic effect is major eye candy too.

Just fired up my light mk2 RAPIER SSTO in 1.0.4 (which for all purpose is 1.0.3). We're slighlty back to air-breathing territory now. From an early feeling (two quick ascents to orbits), it's a lot easier to not overheat (i'm yet to see temp gauge on my plane...), you can climb faster from sea level if you wish to, and you can get 30% faster (and slighly higher) on air breathing RAPIER.

I reckon you can also have a shallower climb in the rocket territory due to less heat, and less drag. No need to pull up like crazy when reaching 1100 m/s like before.

You therefore need to pack up a bit more LF. Also, it takes longer to accelerate on the runway. But if you could do it in 1.0.2, you should be fine in 1.0.4.

Note: Rear tank is full. Fuel was balanced for 1.0.2, so it's now quite unbalanced toward Ox, but you can get to orbit with that.

I'm yet to de-orbit, because that's not the part I worry about (yet?). That might have changed...

But ascent is now a lot less hair rising.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Captain H@dock

[Old Foxboy]

2. Turbo-RAM-Jet: Awesome nice afterburner effect. However, the SR-71 only used them to take off. Doh! It seems they are much more balanced now.

The SR-71 used afterburner all the time, it was just that the rotary part of the engine became a drag item at Mach 3

MB, not only at the takeoff. I'll give you this one. However, the afterburners weren't always working, but were also shut down in between - especially for the air refuelling maneuver - and had to be ignited again after that. So, the SR-71 had an ignitable afterburner which wasn't always running.

[Falkenherz]

Well, it seems I have to adapt my spaceplanes. I had the following observations with my favourite design:

- climb speed down from 260m/s to 160m/s, even when only at 20 degrees instead of 35-40 degrees; have to go now on a much more horizontal ascend profile, which takes much longer and thus uses much more fuel

- top speed up from 950m/s to 1050m/s, but only initially achievable when going nearly horizontal for some time at 9km+

- no overheating (no heat gauges show up) at 1050m/s, no critical overheating during the whole ascend anymore

- ascend angle at 17km at 1050m/s must be 15 degrees or less, or my plane will flip. Before, I was able to do 20 degrees. This is probably due to changed/lesser drag of the aft part of my plane

- same picture on re-entry: easy to flip now, have to pump fuel first to front to remain stable at high speed without airbrakes extended, at low altidute and low speed I have to pump fuel back to the aft to be able to get back from -15 degrees to horizontal level flight

- reentry: heat gauges show very quickly at 50km, airbrakes not as effective as before, so the plane remains very long at 2000+ m/s

- thank god, the plane can now deal with the higher re-entry speed because it seems to heat less (i.e. heat gauges mostly stay in the green area), probably due to less drag associated to the speed

- heat distribution works very well now, heat gauges are now showing up all over all parts and they are nivellating each other

Conclusion:

The plane´s design is no longer optimal and needs to be adapted to the new conditions. More engines, more fuel needed, and flights will take even longer now. So from a perspective of gameplay, I find the changes to be "meh".

Also annoying is, while I like designing planes, I hate having to let go designs which used to work well, took a lot of work and fine tuning and which I thus came to like a lot!

Edited June 24, 2015 by Falkenherz

[foxkill2342]

Yeah I meant one you could toggle for a quick burst. Dramatically increase the heat output too so you can't boost too long.

RAPIERS have rocket mode which increase thrust for fuel burn.

[Red Iron Crown]

RAPIERS have rocket mode which increase thrust for fuel burn.

Not quite the same thing, and switching to rocket mode actually decreases thrust in some situations.

[Fenris]

Sure all stock (color from kerbpaint)

here it is the link

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/120517-REPLICA-NEW-YF-12A-Version-2-By-Eorin-1-0

Thanks!

[Azimech]

Fuel consumption turbo-ramjet ... I don't get it.

Stationary at runway:

And I don't approve.

[herbal space program]

Cruising at 1550 m/s at 24,000 meters is just fantastic and makes for a ridiculously quick and efficient transition period into orbit, SSTOs just became a lot more practical from what I can see. Turbojets also became similarly improved, i was noticing them capping out between 1300 and 1400 m/s at 22,000 meters; their new graphic effect is major eye candy too.

I'm actually pretty convinced that they're worse and not better. While the performance of both RAPIERs and TJs at the high end of the air-breathing envelope is indeed significantly improved, the lowered ISPs and weak thrust at the low end have more than canceled that out in my experience. I was getting on orbit in 1.0.2 with 30% payload fraction in just fuel, giving me a whopping 4km/s deltaV on orbit, and now the best I can do seems to be closer to 3km/s and a 24% PF. I am continuing to redesign my planes to try to get back to where I was, but right now it's not looking so good.

- - - Updated - - -

Also annoying is, while I like designing planes, I hate having to let go designs which used to work well, took a lot of work and fine tuning and which I thus came to like a lot!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XeKsdUtWUZA/VXDWNpiTHII/AAAAAAAADJ8/q2_Hex1_-V0/s400/screenshot137.jpg

Seriously! I am getting pretty fed up with spending hours and hours designing space planes and then just having to throw them away! I was actually going to start a thread in the Suggestions sub-forum just to complain about this.

Edited June 24, 2015 by herbal space program

[Mikki]

We do. The turboramjet's afterburner can't be turned off. :]

This is good news, definetly. And somewhere i have read that WE are not Rocket Scientist. Maybe better so .

[rofltehcat]

I'm actually pretty convinced that they're worse and not better. While the performance of both RAPIERs and TJs at the high end of the air-breathing envelope is indeed significantly improved, the lowered ISPs and weak thrust at the low end have more than canceled that out in my experience. I was getting on orbit in 1.0.2 with 30% payload fraction in just fuel, giving me a whopping 4km/s deltaV on orbit, and now the best I can do seems to be closer to 3km/s and a 24% PF. I am continuing to redesign my planes to try to get back to where I was, but right now it's not looking so good.

My experience as well. I adapted my main space plane (2 TJ, 1 swivel, 2 Terrier) by changing the engines (3 TJ, 2 Thud, 2 Terrier) and adding a little more wings and fuel. The main problem I am having is that 2 TJs simply aren't enough any more for ~28 t weight and I can't fit 3 without messing with the rocket engine setup. It now has less fuel in orbit, is kinda unstable on reentry and often doesn't have enough fuel to actually land at KSC.

I'll probably have to start from scratch once I have more time. The low end oft TJs feels too low, the climb simply takes too long. The ascent profile is also different but that is ok.

I think the people saying the TJs were buffed are using space planes with a lot higher TWR that are now going super fast because of the lower wing area. But stuff that was just barely able to get into orbit probably won't make it anymore.

As for Rapiers... I don't know, I don't really use them and don't have them unlocked on my spaceplane save. Their main advantage is making the engine distribution and design a lot easier, so that probably works even better for them now.

Edited June 24, 2015 by rofltehcat

[Korizan]

The first SSTO I built was under 1.0.2,

It is small only has 2 Rapiers and that was it, I could get to orbit with 700+ Delta/v left over.

I used it to bring Kerbals up and back from the station in Kerban Orbit the perfect job for a SSTO.

Now the same ship (well had to change a wing angle a hair to account for the thinner atmo) now the best I have gotten so far is 577 Delta/v.

The change really is the fuel cost while running on air, I am actually short on fuel not oxygen now.

So be aware the Rapier eats fuel like it is going out of style.

Almost like we took a step back to .90 I remember engines ate a lot back then as well.

Ah well it still flys just needs more tweaking I guess.

PS- The one sad bit is the rapier could actually fly fairly economically on air so power lands could be attained with the little fuel you had left over after a mission.

Now don't even think about it, it will suck the tanks dry in a few seconds.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Korizan

[Captain H@dock]

I'm actually pretty convinced that they're worse and not better. While the performance of both RAPIERs and TJs at the high end of the air-breathing envelope is indeed significantly improved, the lowered ISPs and weak thrust at the low end have more than canceled that out in my experience. I was getting on orbit in 1.0.2 with 30% payload fraction in just fuel, giving me a whopping 4km/s deltaV on orbit, and now the best I can do seems to be closer to 3km/s and a 24% PF. I am continuing to redesign my planes to try to get back to where I was, but right now it's not looking so good.

I haven't tried it yet, but does it help to add some engines? It feels like it's needed, as my profile were mostly running of air before reaching what felt the RAPIER top speed. But maybe the extra weight is too much to help...

[Jarin]

It sounds like spaceplanes are overall easier to get into, but the efficiency of them may be worse. Or at the very least require a lot of redesigning.

[Evanitis]

I think the people saying the TJs were buffed are using space planes with a lot higher TWR that are now going super fast because of the lower wing area. But stuff that was just barely able to get into orbit probably won't make it anymore.

I have the opposite experience. Built an SSTO in 1.0.2 with 2 TJs and a swivel (21t, not much lift). It could orbit, but most of the time I didn't make it. Mind you I'm not the greatest pilot of ever. It's a breeze to orbit since the patch. I didn't even touch it's fuel loads, I just had to rethink the ascent profile: I need to start the acceleration later, otherwise heat eats my RCS exhausts on the nose. I also don't have to turn up that sharply once switched to rocket mode.

That extra couple thousand meters while I can still go on jets feels to make it easy.

[rofltehcat]

I have the opposite experience. Built an SSTO in 1.0.2 with 2 TJs and a swivel (21t, not much lift). It could orbit, but most of the time I didn't make it. Mind you I'm not the greatest pilot of ever. It's a breeze to orbit since the patch. I didn't even touch it's fuel loads, I just had to rethink the ascent profile: I need to start the acceleration later, otherwise heat eats my RCS exhausts on the nose. I also don't have to turn up that sharply once switched to rocket mode.

That extra couple thousand meters while I can still go on jets feels to make it easy.

Mind sharing a screenshot of the thing? I don't know why you didn't get it to orbit before because the weight is quite low for 2 TJs. Before the patch the rule of thumb was that TJs worked for 13-14 t/TJ and your 10.5t/TJ are well below that. My theory is that you had high drag from wings and the drag/lift reduction reduced the drag to levels where you can now go to much faster speeds while being light enough for the TJ changes to not really matter to you. The problem for me is mostly the low minimum power of the TJs, which leads to a longer climb, reducing the efficiency. The acceleration phase between 11k and 20-22k got easier imo and orbital insertion is still pretty much dependent on rocket twr (at least for me).

In my redesign I went from ~28 t, 2 TJ (14 t/TJ, just barely made it to orbit but had fuel reserves once there) to ~33-34t, 3 TJ (11t/TJ, low fuel reserves once in orbit).

Mind, I'm mostly just complaining because I'd now have to rebuild the space plane from scratch to make it efficient and stable again and designing them usually takes ~1-2 hours for me, longer if they don't work after a few tries. Also I'm mostly interested in figuring out the new limits/parameters for space plane design.

Edited June 24, 2015 by rofltehcat

[eddiew]

Finally got chance to do some spaceplanery. Took a streamlined little 2-rapier 28-ton jobbie I'd made for FAR last month, and was pleased to find it got pretty darn close, once all the lumpy bits were pulled off. Has to point about 5 degrees to go transonic at 10km, but it was never able to do that under 1.0.2, so this patch is already looking better to me

Wasn't carrying a full load of oxidiser, and ran out of it, so will beef up the tank a tad and have a go next sesh ^^

- - - Updated - - -

It sounds like spaceplanes are overall easier to get into, but the efficiency of them may be worse. Or at the very least require a lot of redesigning.

I think yes, but check out the revised MK1 LF only tank - 400 units of fuel for a reasonable weight

[Captain H@dock]

By the way, since I now spend long period of time in map view when flying my SSTO planes, I think i've noticed a graphic bug with overheating effect on part.

When a part is close to overheating, it turns red. When it cools down, the red goes away. I've got a feeling if you're in Map view when the red was supposed to go away, it doesn't, ever. I was wondering if anybody else had that feeling. That could require a bit of time to reproduce...

Note that i've got all fancy effects de-activated (no edge lighting), so this might be specific to that config.

[Evanitis]

Mind sharing a screenshot of the thing?

Sure thing, though you even commented on the design-process, and I'm sure an SSTO enthusiast like you didn't miss the K-prize enrty either.

K-prize post

My theory is that you had high drag from wings and the drag/lift reduction reduced the drag to levels

Quite the opposite I must say. Any less wing area and it would be a rocket. Instead of the common newbish mistake, I make less common ones. I'd blame my piloting inexperience. Last time I played around with SSTOs was in 0.23. And as someone said in another thread, bringing up 250 monoprop wasn't the brightest idea either.

[eddiew]

30 tons and two rapiers - never went transonic under 1.0.2 stock aero. Much prefer the new drag model and thrust curves