Is science supposed to be this easy or can it be nerfed

[leocrumb]

I have not done interplanetary travel at all in my first playthrough of the game, and I've almost completed the entire tech tree. I have done both Minimus and the Mun, I didnt do a lot of the science of Kerbin. I did none of the high altitude stuff at all and only a couple of biomes.

Is it supposed to be this easy. Can I make it harder somehow, maybe alter the rate at which science pays off or make the requirement higher?

Edited July 6, 2015 by leocrumb

[Sharpy]

Yes, you can pretty much fill the science tree with Mun and Minmus, and especially with the laboratory. Seriously, one surface sample of Minmus is some 180 data points which converts to 900 science. Times 9 or so biomes, 8100 points from Minmus surface samples alone, and that's even without returning the results to Kerbin, just processing them in the lab.

You can reduce the science rewards when you configure the game in the beginning, but soon the grind gets tiresome. Just enjoy the full tree.

I'd ask a different question - can Science be extended?

Are there any mods that expand the tech tree - towards the right? New parts, new nodes unlockable for >1000 science each?

Edited July 6, 2015 by Sharpy

[leocrumb]

I'd ask a different question - can Science be extended?

Are there any mods that expand the tech tree - towards the right? New parts, new nodes unlockable for >1000 science each?

lol thats half an answer, if you have something to suggest I'm all ears

[Streetwind]

If you are religious about farming science, you can unlock the entire stock tech tree without landing on Minmus IIRC. Just Kerbin and Mun sicence, and science in space around Minmus. And that's not counting asteroid missions and the mobile processing lab, both of which generate a practically infinite amount of science. So yes, this is by design - normal difficulty throws science at you

One solution is to reduce science payout in the difficulty options when you start a new game.

If you'd rather expand the tech tree, there's two different approaches. One is the Community Tech Tree, which keeps the stock tree intact and tacks on (a lot of) extra nodes for modders to put parts in. Alternatively, there are several other custom tech trees, but they all throw away the stock tree completely and go custom right from the start.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Streetwind

[Daveroski]

Is it supposed to be this easy. Can I make it harder somehow, maybe alter the rate at which science pays off or make the requirement higher?

Indeed you can. When you start a new career you can set up the science returns from as little as 10% of the norm.

[leocrumb]

Indeed you can. When you start a new career you can set up the science returns from as little as 10% of the norm.

thx I think I'm gonna do that, trying to keep mods to a minimum cos of updates.

I gues Im going to have to start another playthroug

[Empiro]

thx I think I'm gonna do that, trying to keep mods to a minimum cos of updates.

I gues Im going to have to start another playthroug

My recommendation is simply to do something completely different. Don't bother grinding science (if it's boring, don't do it!). Leave science gains at 50%+ to avoid boredom. Instead, just do 1-2 landings on each of the Mun and Minmus before setting your sights even further. Play with mods like Station Science and try to get most of your science from that.

[Requia]

Yes, you can pretty much fill the science tree with Mun and Minmus, and especially with the laboratory. Seriously, one surface sample of Minmus is some 180 data points which converts to 900 science. Times 9 or so biomes, 8100 points from Minmus surface samples alone, and that's even without returning the results to Kerbin, just processing them in the lab.

You can reduce the science rewards when you configure the game in the beginning, but soon the grind gets tiresome. Just enjoy the full tree.

I'd ask a different question - can Science be extended?

Are there any mods that expand the tech tree - towards the right? New parts, new nodes unlockable for >1000 science each?

Community Tech Tree adds a bunch of post stock nodes, whcih most mods then fill in if CTT is installed, as much as 10k for a node (warp drive mods).

[Violent Jeb]

I completely disagree. It might be good if you've found some way to farm science in kerbin's SOI, but many of us have not, and find typical playthroughs to be sufficiently challenging to acquire science. Personally I have launched 20-30 missions and still haven't unlocked half the tech tree. I usually get experiments on all the KSC biomes, i have been to the mun 4 times, minmus once, and have been everywhere but the polar caps of kerbin, and i have earned at MOST a total of 2k science.

Sure, if i want to throw up the science module and hit ............. then sure, science is easy. I try to roleplay a bit, and not leave my space center inactive for any period of months or years while i farm science, and therefore in the short term, without fast-forward, science absolutely does not need to be nerfed.

If you're going to just time-adjust the game simply to farm science you may as well not play career mode. I mean i realize you play the game the way you want but you're essentially just playing the game to fast forward through orbits.

Furthermore, if you have made trips to 9 biomes on minmus and not gone interplanetary, you are actually spending the "end game" just cruising around on minmus. the science module is supposed to (afaik) be a late game tech to help you slowly generate income with a sufficiently leveraged science>funds strategy to fund your operations with less grinding.

If you head out into the kerbolar system when you are first able (before the second 500 tier r&d upgrade), then you will be challenged to see new things and get science in new places. If you choose to farm science on three objects there is nobody else to blame.

Personally, If they "nerf" science any more, I will have to complete 20 missions just to unlock the tech to build a plane. another 10 just to get docking ports. That's a grind, and that just sucks.

I play on normal, and if there is a way to clean the tech tree in less than 20 missions without time adjustment, i'm all ears. If a mission takes .75 hr thats 15 hours just to unlock tech, and many of the higher upgrades are essential for "workhorse" crafts. That's 15 hours in the SOI, followed by how many hours of potential subsequent interplanetary colonization? 45? 75? How long should I be grinding until the potential of the game is available to me?

We shouldn't be fighting to unlock "essential" science the entire time we play the career mode. I like the balance as is, it certainly shouldn't be any harder.

They have rebalanced r&d mods for people who want to grind for the 1000 unlock tiers.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Violent Jeb

[cephalo]

thx I think I'm gonna do that, trying to keep mods to a minimum cos of updates.

I gues Im going to have to start another playthroug

Make sure you don't hit a wall in your playthrough though. If you restrict science too much and pick things in the wrong order, you might end up with no way to advance. That's no fun.

[Snark]

A couple of thoughts:

- You can play with mods that add new parts/technologies. Lately, I've been having fun with UKS (RoverDude's "Kolonization" mod) for making it challenging to set up self-sustaining planetary and orbital bases. Aside from the fun of the mod itself, it adds a bunch new parts which have a bunch of new tech nodes, including some that are way out at the right side of the tree (I think the most expensive one is something like 2250 science).

- You can play with your "rules": KSP is very much a "dollhouse" game, where you can set your own rules that you play by. "Get the most science per body" is one way, and I think fairly common (this leads to strip-mining the Mun and Minmus and maxing out the tech tree before leaving Kerbin's SoI). But there are lots of other ways to play. "As early as possible, get to Duna" (or Eve, Or Jool, or whatever) is another way-- i.e. don't wait for maxing the tech tree, try to go out into the great beyond as soon as kerbally possible. Designing a Duna mission with limited tech makes for a fun challenge.

- You can focus on other challenges besides "max out the tech tree." To go with the aforementioned UKS mod: it's set up to make a self-sustaining base quite a challenge, especially if you do it in concert with something like TAC Life Support. If you're focused on an engineering challenge as your goal, rather than "finish the tech tree", then the tech tree just becomes one of the tools en route to the goal.

[ringerc]

I find that about 20% returns on science is reasonable - you can mostly complete your tech tree with exploration of Mun, Minmus, Duna, Ike and Gilly, plus some high capture data on Eve. It makes getting to the Mun actually challenging because you don't have big boosters yet. You're likely to want to do a flyby to collect some research data before attempting to orbit, and to orbit and return before attempting landing. It's way more interesting (and makes you really appreciate the big rockets when you get them).

By the time you're heading for Eve you're also likely to have have science labs doing their thing on their long interplanetary journeys, mining bases with accessory labs, etc, contributing small bursts of research work too.

Personally I wish the contracts offered "stretch goals" early. "Well, we know you've only just landed on the Mun, but how do you feel about an unmanned Duna lander?".

[ygarl]

Hello,

In a fit of stupid here:

HOW did you manage to almost complete the entire tech tree that way.

I actually find it DIFFICULT to get out past Minimus or even get to the 4th level of tech!

Am I missing something here?

[Yemo]

You could try the SETI-CommunityTechTree.

It is still recommended to play it with 60% science return if you have additional science mods installed (eg DMagicOrbitalScience), or 70% or so without those.

[Sharpy]

Hello,

In a fit of stupid here:

HOW did you manage to almost complete the entire tech tree that way.

I actually find it DIFFICULT to get out past Minimus or even get to the 4th level of tech!

Am I missing something here?

Oh, getting past the 4th tech level is difficult. It's then when the easy stuff starts.

Minmus jumper-lander.

One of each experiment, quite a few of them. Jump between biomes. Store results in the capsule and reset the experiments each time.

Crew report on the ground. Crew report flying. EVA report on the ground. Eva report flying (on jetpack). Temperature scan. Goo observation. Material observation. Seismic data. Gravity measurement. Pressure measurement. Many of these can be performed 10 meters above the surface for extra variants.

Also, atmospheric analysis of Kerbin in all possible biomes (including all KSC buildings). That one produces a lot of data (and science).

[Wemb]

Oh, getting past the 4th tech level is difficult. It's then when the easy stuff starts.

Minmus jumper-lander.

One of each experiment, quite a few of them. Jump between biomes. Store results in the capsule and reset the experiments each time.

Crew report on the ground. Crew report flying. EVA report on the ground. Eva report flying (on jetpack). Temperature scan. Goo observation. Material observation. Seismic data. Gravity measurement. Pressure measurement. Many of these can be performed 10 meters above the surface for extra variants.

Also, atmospheric analysis of Kerbin in all possible biomes (including all KSC buildings). That one produces a lot of data (and science).

Yup, if you take a scientist with you they can reset the one-shot experiements like the sci-jr and goo canistars. (and you know about 'storing' science in the capsule, right?).

A few hops there will give you enough science to put a Science Lab into Minmus orbit - coupled with a very lightweight landers and you'll have more than you can eat within a couple of surface hops - what will be limiting you then is not the lack of science, but the amount of time it takes the lab to reprocess the data and convert it into useable science.

And even if you don't send a lab out there, you can do repeated trips to minmus and quickly max out the science that way too.

Wemb

Edited July 9, 2015 by Wemb

[klesh]

Unlocking all the parts in the tech tree is the game before the game.

[justidutch]

In my current career, I've got the science returns set to 40%. I found that as soon as I completed the first Mun mission, I got a contact to go to Minmus. Completed that, then there was a contract for Ike. Just completed that, and now I have various contracts for Duna, Jool and Eve. So I will do those. While I see the point of loitering around Kerbin's SOI to get all science and fill the tech tree, I always have the compulsion to further out as soon as possible. I mean, why not? I do still plan on grabbing the remaining science from Mun and the other places already visited, but I'm more in a rush to go EXPLORE!

[ygarl]

AH!

Minimus is the key (I see why now: high science multiplier, stupidly low delta-V to get off the ground - even using just a decent RCS is enough...).

Now... to plan the next missions!

[Cucumbor]

I thought the same way - i was lack of science, but then i watched couple tutorials of Scott Manley (http://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg) and my science life has totaly changed!