[WIP][1.8.x] SSTULabs - Low Part Count Solutions (Orbiters, Landers, Lifters) - Dev Thread [11-18-18]

[Nerfclasher]

@Shadowmage For some reason the game fail compiling the parts in landercore folder and in shipcore in the engines folder 

[Gordon Dry]

Using the SC-GEN with the Delta IV Common Booster Core from RSB on staging it all just disappears, the SC-GEN got question marks in staging bar ...

[Shadowmage]

39 minutes ago, Nerfclasher said:

@Shadowmage For some reason the game fail compiling the parts in landercore folder and in shipcore in the engines folder 

 

12 minutes ago, Gordon Dry said:

Using the SC-GEN with the Delta IV Common Booster Core from RSB on staging it all just disappears, the SC-GEN got question marks in staging bar ...

 

Logs / bug-report ?

[Gordon Dry]

It seems it has something to do with

Logs are there...

[JoseEduardo]

Mage, speaking of adding SSTU modules to stock parts got me thinking, would it be possible to add the SSTU tank endcaps/mounts/noses to stock tanks or mod tanks, including Procedural Parts without plugin changes?

here's why I'm asking if it is possible to add compatibility with PP in particular:


(the top of this Nova first stage can easily be done with the interstage fairing, but the bottom would need a bit of diagonal tanks+Nova mount)

[rasta013]

5 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

It seems it has something to do with

Logs are there...

Taking a look at your log files you seem to have numerous NREs that are coming from many other things.  I see several issues with MJ, FAR, MFT/RF and yes DOE but the DOE errors are happening on far more than just SSTU.  Something you've got installed is stepping on a ton of different things and I'm not sure what it is.  I can tell you that I run SSTU and DOE together right now and don't have a single one of your errors.  

I've really got no idea what your problem is rooted in but I do know from experience that RO can frequently not play well with things that aren't supported by it.  If it were me, I'd start by making sure that everything I'm using is either explicitly supported, or at the very least explicitly is stated by a mod author as having no problem running with RO.  This is where I'd begin in trying to track down the issue.

[Shadowmage]

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:37 PM, RedParadize said:

On my side, SSTU fuel tanks made stock rocket tanks else obsolete. And this is true for most of modded rocket tanks as well. There is a notable exeption to this: Near Future Propultion tanks. I already made a patch that add NFP fuel to your tanks. But I could see myself using a SSTU style version of NFP and NFC, mostly for esthetical reason. Don't get me wrong, your tanks look awesome. But for a Space Tug, NFC trust/tanks are looking great.

For the Mk2 MK3,  I barely use them when building planes. (OPT and MkIV when it will be updated) But I am sure others would find a use for SSTU style Mk2 and Mk3.

 

That sound awesome. Cargo bays and reusable fairing would be great. Same with NF style trust and tanks. I am curious to know how you imagine your crewpod/habitat, will they be customizable? And also, will you do centrifuge?

 

On another topic, I have a suggestion, see it as a wish list from a always-wanting-more-customer. 

The Rocket-in-a-Box:

Do we realy have to carry a empty tank to Duna or a fully assembled trust to space? I am thinking about a IKEA kit. Basicly, If SSTU part could be either converted into "box" or stored in KIS with only thier tankageVolume concidered. I always wanted to carry assemblable booster to Eve and strap them on the spot. It could also be realy usefull for station building.

Thanks again for your great mod!

Truss style tanks = already planned.. just a matter of me finishing of the immediate-WIP stuff (wheels....).

Crew parts = haven't even started planning/thinking on them yet; no clue how they'll be setup or if it'll even be possible.

KIS = hmmm... does KIS not store SSTU parts properly?  I've honestly never tried.

 

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 0:05 AM, tater said:

I imagine that spaceplane people would only be helped by SSTU-ing this parts. I honestly don;t bother with he stock tanks---or crew parts, actually---at all any more.

Regarding station parts, what's your target functionality/aesthetic? Obviously I could imagine a bare-bones truss/tank system as one element, but what would the crew part variants be? Or would they be only variant in what they have aside from crew (built in functionalities like the current capsules)? Would variant length parts be possible, with crew number changing with length? Are IVAs possible (I know they're not your favorite thing  ) in that case?

Looking good, as always.

Station parts = haven't even begun planning/thinking on them yet.  I'm not sure if crew capacity can be dynamically altered (recent patch notes say yes; have not tried).  IVAs... well... I won't be doing anything with them... likely just use a generic placeholder IVA that has extra seats; -if- its even possible.

 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 3:50 PM, rasta013 said:

I love your container system.  IMHO it's the best I've seen and I've used pretty much every type of fuel container there is in this game.  If you want to expand that I would have no hesitation in taking advantage of it everywhere that it's present.  So with that in mind...

What will it's effects be when running multiple fuel switches as required by some mods?  If you implement this across all tanks inevitably people will fail to read the OP/ReadMes/changelogs etc and will come asking/bug reporting that either a) they don't have their switched tanks they were expecting or b) if you ignore tanks modified by those switchers, people will come asking/bug reporting that they don't have the SSTU switched tanks.  I would volunteer now to help field those question in thread to be able to have the SSTU container model more widely available. 

As to the second part - limited expansion to MK2/3 form factor?  This may be the best solution as it will still result in people asking (and I'll help field LOL) but there would be less of it to some degree.  Personally I want your container setup available to me everywhere.  I frequently find myself pulling off a B9 switched tank in favor of one of yours because they are so much better.  Perhaps you could include this as an optional patch similar to the way the Nertea handles some things for CryoEngines/Tanks.

Indeed, the SSTU volume-switch module could be added to other mods' parts (most of them anyway).  The parts that use the B9 part/model switch would not work however due to how their models are built (e.g. lots of sub-models within a single file; my system expects one model-file per actual model) -- I would have to create a special model-switch module to handle this model setup (or adapt/add such functionality to the current system) (or bug @blowfish to integrate some sort of external volume-updating api to interface with the SSTUVolumeContainer module....which might be the easiest/cleanest way to get it done).

 

19 hours ago, JoseEduardo said:

Mage, speaking of adding SSTU modules to stock parts got me thinking, would it be possible to add the SSTU tank endcaps/mounts/noses to stock tanks or mod tanks, including Procedural Parts without plugin changes?

here's why I'm asking if it is possible to add compatibility with PP in particular:


(the top of this Nova first stage can easily be done with the interstage fairing, but the bottom would need a bit of diagonal tanks+Nova mount)

Procedural parts = no, not going to happen.  Well, not by me anyhow; it would have to be implemented in the Procedural parts code/plugin that mirrored the functionality I have in the MFTs.  Procedural tanks are built like I build the fairings; there is no Model / .mu file; and all of the MFT code depends on the model .mu files and the model-definition .cfg files, and on models being static.

Stock/mod tanks = yes, and no.  Yes, it can be done, but no you cannot just add them to a tank.  In order for the end-cap switching to work the tank must be entirely controlled by the MFT module.  Now, you can set the MFT module up to only have a single 'main tank', and with non-adjustable diameter and height; so in effect yes, it can be done.  But not as easily as just slapping some end-cap switching module on the stock part (because such module does not exist, and the end-cap switching is part of the MFT module).

 

 

So... I'm taking it that the general consensus is 'Use the VolumeContainer and/or MFT modules everywhere possible' ?

I'll work on some stock-tank config files and patches to set the stock tanks up for MFT-izing.  Have been intending to for awhile now... it is just not as easy as it could be given the inconsistencies in stock part modeling (e.g. many parts are not modeled at 1:1 scale and I have to basically import them into blender to figure out their un-scaled dimensions and volumes).

Will see about getting at least the first of these done for the next update/release (which will likely be tomorrow... spent too much time working on wheels this week/end and haven't had any time to devote to SSTU stuff ).

[blowfish]

14 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Indeed, the SSTU volume-switch module could be added to other mods' parts (most of them anyway).  The parts that use the B9 part/model switch would not work however due to how their models are built (e.g. lots of sub-models within a single file; my system expects one model-file per actual model) -- I would have to create a special model-switch module to handle this model setup (or adapt/add such functionality to the current system) (or bug @blowfish to integrate some sort of external volume-updating api to interface with the SSTUVolumeContainer module....which might be the easiest/cleanest way to get it done).

I've been contemplating adding the ability to modify MFT/RF volume for a while, but the truth is that there are very few B9 parts where the subtype actually changes the volume, and then it's usually not by a huge amount.  If someone (probably not you or I since this is a large amount of work) wanted to create B9 patches, as a first pass they could just disable the fuel switching on the B9 module and add SSTUVolumeContainer (this is the way B9's MFT/RF patches work currently).

[JoseEduardo]

gotcha, so that leads me to another question, would a fully procedural (similar in shaping to the petal adapter, with one or two section options and allowing conic shapes) MFT with endcaps and mounts be possible or that would require new code? also, like the fairings, no textures with much detail, either vertical stripes or monochromatic (could even use the same textures)

such tank with the dome from the MUS and a node inside the dome also like the MUS would allow for the conic N-1 tanks and others alike to be made, or make a straight section with the dome on top and then a conic one like the Nova model, plus these could also be used in the same way as you describe MFT-C, a single tank, it would have a lower quality compared to the MFT, but would allow for exotic designs

[Shadowmage]

Just now, JoseEduardo said:

gotcha, so that leads me to another question, would a fully procedural (similar in shaping to the petal adapter, with one or two section options and allowing conic shapes) MFT with endcaps and mounts be possible or that would require new code? also, like the fairings, no textures with much detail, either vertical stripes or monochromatic (could even use the same textures)

such tank with the dome from the MUS and a node inside the dome also like the MUS would allow for the conic N-1 tanks and others alike to be made, or make a straight section with the dome on top and then a conic one like the Nova model, plus these could also be used in the same way as you describe MFT-C, a single tank, it would have a lower quality compared to the MFT, but would allow for exotic designs

Possible, yes.  Require new code, also yes... a fair bit.  Would have to be a separate part-module with code to procedurally generate the tank, along with the GUI controls to enable it, while copying in all the code to handle the mounts/fairings/volume/attach node stuff.  I've already got the mesh-generation in place that can create conic tanks, which is the hardest part (the same code that generates the fairings) (but not spherical, at least not properly shaded...) , but it would need new handling code to actually generate the tanks from the parameters UI.  However these would be straight and completely lacking in detail... it would be a nightmare trying to do any external piping/duct geometry on them.  UV mapping on such things is also a complete PITA and generally doesn't turn out looking well; you will end up with stretching on one axis or another (or hundreds of lines of code to avoid it at the cost of hard-to-re-use textures).  And the GUI needed to do it properly would also need to be created from scratch; if I were to do it I would allow dynamic-multi-segment tanks where you would position and size each ring/arc/loop of the tank independently and select shading model.

I -might- look into it in the future (have given it some thought in the past)... but I wouldn't get your hopes up to soon.  I personally prefer the geometry and texture detail of pre-built models, and the amount of code that would be needed to -do it right- really isn't appealing to me at the moment.  However I've slowly been working up to it... which is why I rewrote the mesh generation into its current form; it easily enables multi-segment meshes to be created (as seen in the taper/bi-conic ability of the IPA and ISDC parts).

Hmm.... if you want to open an issue ticket about it so that it doesn't get lost/forgotten, it'll be much more likely that I actually get it done at some point   At least that'll give me a place to start collecting notes and determining feature set, requirements, dependencies, etc.

24 minutes ago, blowfish said:

I've been contemplating adding the ability to modify MFT/RF volume for a while, but the truth is that there are very few B9 parts where the subtype actually changes the volume, and then it's usually not by a huge amount.  If someone (probably not you or I since this is a large amount of work) wanted to create B9 patches, as a first pass they could just disable the fuel switching on the B9 module and add SSTUVolumeContainer (this is the way B9's MFT/RF patches work currently).

Ahh, noted, good to know

I'll see about playing around with some of the Near-Future parts and see what I can do with them.  For the b9 model-switched parts I can't (currently) use them for the MFT module, but I could add the SSTUVolumeContainer to them for resource control.  For the non-model-switched parts I should be able to put together an MFT-creating patch (cryo tanks, both cylinder and spherical).

Might even see about adjusting the model-definition setup that I have now to allow for sub-models.  Could be handled at a fairly low-level in the code, shouldn't be too intrusive, and would allow for wider compatibility for several SSTU part-modules.

[blowfish]

7 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Ahh, noted, good to know

I'll see about playing around with some of the Near-Future parts and see what I can do with them.  For the b9 model-switched parts I can't (currently) use them for the MFT module, but I could add the SSTUVolumeContainer to them for resource control.  For the non-model-switched parts I should be able to put together an MFT-creating patch (cryo tanks, both cylinder and spherical).

Might even see about adjusting the model-definition setup that I have now to allow for sub-models.  Could be handled at a fairly low-level in the code, shouldn't be too intrusive, and would allow for wider compatibility for several SSTU part-modules.

I'm confused.  B9PartSwitch won't touch resources it doesn't know about, so what would be the issue with having those parts use B9PartSwitch for the mesh switching and SSTUVolumeContainer for the fuel switching?

[JoseEduardo]

I imagined that, that's why I said lower quality and possibly sharing textures with fairings 

I personally don't see as a downside to have it at a lower quality without the pipes and all, I see it as a trade-off for it's procedural capacity 

[Shadowmage]

Just now, blowfish said:

I'm confused.  B9PartSwitch won't touch resources it doesn't know about, so what would be the issue with having those parts use B9PartSwitch for the mesh switching and SSTUVolumeContainer for the fuel switching?

You're not confused, I just didn't write out the explanations very clearly. 

There is no problem with the setup you describe.  Let the B9PartSwitch handle the mesh-switching, and SSTUVolumeContainer handle resource-switching; there would not be any volume changes, it would stay at the volume specified in the config file.

What can't be done (yet....) is using the parts meant for B9PartSwitch in the SSTUModularFuelTank setup (for dynamic diameter, switchable nose/mounts, switchable main-tank models) as it relies on individually compiled model files.

[ComatoseJedi]

I've often needed clarification on the MFT you're referring to @Shadowmage. But, since you call your tanks MFTs, I would assume you're referring to your SSTU MFT tanks and not the Modular Fuel Tanks mod. I only mention this due to the fact that the two do not mix -at all-. Unless you've written your own patch to either add LH2 to the Modular Fuel Tanks mod (which I think has been done on that thread)  or try to set Modular Fuel Tanks mod to ignore your parts (no idea), since it comes with it's own fuel switching and LH2 patch included. I guess I'm simple minded that way. So, in earnest, I just totally do not use the MFT mod, just so I can use the tanks without having to worry about the mod interfering with your parts.  And I guess I probably need to ask @taniwha on how to have his mod ignore your parts? So, if you're actually including the MFT mod into your parts, I guess I'm missing out on something? If not, I guess there's something to look into that could be written on the MFT mod end to ignore your SSTU MFT Tanks. 

[rasta013]

So just for fun...

THE K.U.I.R.K!!!

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by rasta013
Stupid code...

[Shadowmage]

18 hours ago, ComatoseJedi said:

I've often needed clarification on the MFT you're referring to @Shadowmage. But, since you call your tanks MFTs, I would assume you're referring to your SSTU MFT tanks and not the Modular Fuel Tanks mod. I only mention this due to the fact that the two do not mix -at all-. Unless you've written your own patch to either add LH2 to the Modular Fuel Tanks mod (which I think has been done on that thread)  or try to set Modular Fuel Tanks mod to ignore your parts (no idea), since it comes with it's own fuel switching and LH2 patch included. I guess I'm simple minded that way. So, in earnest, I just totally do not use the MFT mod, just so I can use the tanks without having to worry about the mod interfering with your parts.  And I guess I probably need to ask @taniwha on how to have his mod ignore your parts? So, if you're actually including the MFT mod into your parts, I guess I'm missing out on something? If not, I guess there's something to look into that could be written on the MFT mod end to ignore your SSTU MFT Tanks. 

SSTU actually includes a patch that is -supposed- to allow use of the MFT module rather than VolumeContainer. 

If you would like to use the VolumeContainer even when MFT/RF is installed you will need to delete/disable the RF.cfg patch in the GameData/SSTU/Patches directory.

[JoseEduardo]

which mods are you using, @rasta013?

[Jimbodiah]

From the "just an idea" box...  The current launch towers already supply Ec while on the launchpad. Would it be possible to have an SSTU version that also fills LH2 tanks while still on the pad so you don't need zero boil-off tanks for the launch stages?

NB: Yes, it's easy to patch the original, but maybe something more SSTU worthy?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Jimbodiah

[Shadowmage]

Created model definitions for the stock 1.25, 2.5, 3.75m LFO tanks, and created an MFT part out of them (SC-TANK-MFT-K.. for Kerbal ).  Has full nose/adapter/mount support, diameter scaling, and uses VolumeContainer for resources (fuel types/config GUI/etc).  (center of image)

Also did a test patch/part setup with Nertea's Cryo-Tanks, the MFT-NF-C.  It combines the 1.25, 2.5, 3.75m cryo tanks into an MFT part, with adapter/mount switching, diameter scaling, and VolumeContainer for resource control. (left of image)  And... in the same patch, added the Cryo-Tanks radial fuel tanks to the MFT-R for diameter scaling and fuel type switching/resource control... all the standard goodies. (right of image)

At least the MFT-K will be available with today's update.  Might also post a separate download for the Cryo-tanks config files, as they're not quite all ready yet (but good enough for initial testing)  (mostly I have no idea how to conditionally define a new, not-cloned, part using ModuleManager).  Have not yet started working on model definitions for the stock adapters or Mk1/2/3 parts... is just a matter of time; perhaps for next weekends update.  Just going through testing/validating stuff now; will likely have the release available within the hour.

The stripes even line up decently

[rasta013]

4 hours ago, JoseEduardo said:

which mods are you using, @rasta013?

Well that's a list that's much too long (200+) for here but will happily post it if you really want it.  For this lifter/lander the lander, tanks, engines and fuel depot are SSTU and the lab I carried was from the revived Orbital Materials Sciences from Nehemiah's science mods.  The landing legs were constructed out of parts from Infernal Robotics and the stock Advanced Grabber for landing feet (which work surprisingly well in this time of landing issues in KSP).  I mated all of these to a station core built out of parts from Cx Aerospace.  There's also a few sciency parts on there you can't see mainly from DMOS and Coatl Aerospace.  Oh and those solar panels are the MOS panels from Bluedog Design Bureau.  Graphics are largely provided by Scatterer and Environmental Visual Effects with a few tiny custom tweaks.

[Shadowmage]

Updated testing release is available:

https://github.com/shadowmage45/SSTULabs/releases/tag/0.4.31.115

Fixes crashiness on SC-A-SMX part, and adds SC-TANK-MFT-K.  Github, Curse, and AVC have all been updated for this release.

[JoseEduardo]

Downloading it, maybe I can start using stock tanks again  (btw, I'm using Ven's stock revamp, I'll let you know if there is a conflict between the two)

2 hours ago, rasta013 said:

Well that's a list that's much too long (200+) for here but will happily post it if you really want it.  For this lifter/lander the lander, tanks, engines and fuel depot are SSTU and the lab I carried was from the revived Orbital Materials Sciences from Nehemiah's science mods.  The landing legs were constructed out of parts from Infernal Robotics and the stock Advanced Grabber for landing feet (which work surprisingly well in this time of landing issues in KSP).  I mated all of these to a station core built out of parts from Cx Aerospace.  There's also a few sciency parts on there you can't see mainly from DMOS and Coatl Aerospace.  Oh and those solar panels are the MOS panels from Bluedog Design Bureau.  Graphics are largely provided by Scatterer and Environmental Visual Effects with a few tiny custom tweaks.

send it through PM so we don't derail the thread 

EDIT: no conflicts with Ven's, especially because your MFT-K didn't get affected by Ven's and still uses the original tanks

btw, Mage, quick question, what would be the viability of adding tanks like the SRB segments? like, using 2, 3, 4, 5 tanks, like any (in)sane stock KSP player would do?

Edited May 30, 2016 by JoseEduardo

[Shadowmage]

1 hour ago, JoseEduardo said:

btw, Mage, quick question, what would be the viability of adding tanks like the SRB segments? like, using 2, 3, 4, 5 tanks, like any (in)sane stock KSP player would do?

Would require adjustments to how the models are put together; it currently only uses a single model file for each tank type... no way to combine multiple model files for a tank variant (currently...).

However, you can add the tank-bodies as nose/mount variants, so you can get up to 3x tanks stacked in that manner (the MFT-L lander tank does this).

[JoseEduardo]

that should do the trick

[Goat Master]

Before 1.1 came out, I had this mod and it worked great, but now (having tried it 3 times) all of the parts are in the list, but don't actually exist in a way. If I click on it, nothing shows up.