[WIP][1.8.x] SSTULabs - Low Part Count Solutions (Orbiters, Landers, Lifters) - Dev Thread [11-18-18]

[tater]

15 minutes ago, Pappystein said:

Not trying to sound snippy or go off on a rant but HOW would you make one to Scale?  Scale requires a size reference (tape measure) in game that is adjustable to the size of the object you wish to make,   I looked at a Picture, Guessed the correct length for the CCB, made 2x copies and radially attached, Viola Delta IV Heavy.

To be clear, There is no handy reference in KSP for how long a CCB tank, or an Atlas tank or a S-IC/S-1D tank etc. etc. etc. should be. It is not like KSP puts a perfect .64 scale picture on each wall of that profile so I can just chug blocks together.   

First off, you cannot get an Orion and upper stage off with anything that looks even "ballpark" close by visually guesstimating since the TWR will be too low. You have to make one so stubby it only looks like DIV heavy because it has 3 identical, orange boosters, even though they look to be about 1/2 the length they should.

The real boosters are ~40m, so in KSP they need to be around 25m.  The VAB gives you vehicle height, so you can simply place an SSTU tank alone, then see how tall it is for different tank settings. The default MFT-B-3-0 tank is 7.5m long. The MFT-B-8-0 is 20m long at 2.5m diameter. The shrouded RS-68 is 3.75m diameter. A B-5-5 with the RS-68 on the bottom is 25.2m, so close enough. A scale DIV heavy should have the core as a B-5-5 with the shrouded rs-68 on the bottom. 

@Shadowmage ninjaed me. A B-5-5 with the engine is 25.2, pretty dang close!

Edited October 11, 2016 by tater

[tater]

I should have said you cannot make one with a default SSTU tank that looks right...

Orion with a decoupler and the IUS as the entire upper stages has a 0.99 TWR in the VAB according to KER. Its lower (0.89) on the pad because KER is still a little flakey right now.

A simple solution as things stand now is to build one that looks right, then select either all the booster tanks, or just the core, and configure the tanks such that a decent % is mono. I did that with the core. The hydrolox ratio is 45:3, so I added 10 for mono on just the core tank---then removed all the monopropellant in the VAB. The mass dropped enough that the TWR on the pad is 1.02!

[Shadowmage]

1 hour ago, tater said:

I should have said you cannot make one with a default SSTU tank that looks right...

Orion with a decoupler and the IUS as the entire upper stages has a 0.99 TWR in the VAB according to KER. Its lower (0.89) on the pad because KER is still a little flakey right now.

A simple solution as things stand now is to build one that looks right, then select either all the booster tanks, or just the core, and configure the tanks such that a decent % is mono. I did that with the core. The hydrolox ratio is 45:3, so I added 10 for mono on just the core tank---then removed all the monopropellant in the VAB. The mass dropped enough that the TWR on the pad is 1.02!

I have just switched the LH2 back to real-world density.  Upcoming/future releases should be able to build proper scaled D-IV / SLS rockets with sufficient TWR (though massively overpowered still from a dV perspective for the stock system).

That leaves me with a ... situation?... problem? with an unbalance compared to NearFuture tanks.  Seems like I can either 1.) Ignore the problem, as its not really my problem to solve, or 2.) Create a patch that 'fixes' the density of the fuels for NearFuture tanks whenever it is installed with SSTU.  I -really- don't like messing with stock or other mods' parts (as someone always seems to be confused / complain about it), so I'll likely go with #1.

[StickyScissors]

4 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

I have just switched the LH2 back to real-world density.  Upcoming/future releases should be able to build proper scaled D-IV / SLS rockets with sufficient TWR (though massively overpowered still from a dV perspective for the stock system).

That leaves me with a ... situation?... problem? with an unbalance compared to NearFuture tanks.  Seems like I can either 1.) Ignore the problem, as its not really my problem to solve, or 2.) Create a patch that 'fixes' the density of the fuels for NearFuture tanks whenever it is installed with SSTU.  I -really- don't like messing with stock or other mods' parts (as someone always seems to be confused / complain about it), so I'll likely go with #1.

Oof, i just 100% finalized my launch vehicle designs, too

I guess that's the price to pay for playing with a heavily W.I.P mod

[Calvin_Maclure]

Could someone explain what this imbalance with the NearFuture tanks is? I think I missed something... 

Cheers!

[Jimbodiah]

At the time Nertea was making his CryoEngines rebalance they did some testing and settled on a 15:1 ratio plus that the tank should contain twice the actual volume vs LF/O to keep the tanks small and kerbal-looking. Mage used realistic proportions for his LH tanks meaning they were larger and more realistic looking. He kept the 15:1 LH/O ratio to keep engines interchangeable between mods.

[Calvin_Maclure]

6 minutes ago, Jimbodiah said:

At the time Nertea was making his CryoEngines rebalance they did some testing and settled on a 15:1 ratio plus that the tank should contain twice the actual volume vs LF/O to keep the tanks small and kerbal-looking. Mage used realistic proportions for his LH tanks meaning they were larger and more realistic looking. He kept the 15:1 LH/O ratio to keep engines interchangeable between mods.

Right. Im asking cause this mod is something else! But im afraid I might get some weird issues if I use it with all of my other mods... 

[Jimbodiah]

I've been using this mod since 1.0.4 as far as I can remember, even in career mode. SSTU is so huge in scale that I think it will always stay a WIP as long as squad keeps releasing updates. Mage will say when certain parts in an update will be save-breaking, so watch for that, it doesn't happen all that often though.

As for this fuel ratio, it will only lower the fuel in your crafts, not break them (in the sense the ships will disappear or crafts no longer opening). I didn't even notice he changed it to 2:1, so I would not worry about this issue. It's WIP but quite useable, just keep in mind things on new parts could change, so make backups of your saves and check the change logs for updates. I tend to isolate craft (undock from stations etc) that I know will break, removing the crew and science ofcourse, and then update. If needed you can hyperedit new builds into place. Just note that even though a craft does not disappear, it could still be broken in other ways (going completely nuts using RCS/SAS etc).

[tater]

29 minutes ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

Right. Im asking cause this mod is something else! But im afraid I might get some weird issues if I use it with all of my other mods... 

I end up almost never using other parts at this point. As far as I know, the LH2 issue with the cryoengines mod and FAR incompatibility are the only 2 issues I have come across. 

[Calvin_Maclure]

44 minutes ago, tater said:

I end up almost never using other parts at this point. As far as I know, the LH2 issue with the cryoengines mod and FAR incompatibility are the only 2 issues I have come across. 

Ah yes, the FAR issue... what was it again? I remember reading something about that, just dont remember what it is... :S

[blowfish]

2 hours ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

Could someone explain what this imbalance with the NearFuture tanks is? I think I missed something... 

Cheers!

FAR made some assumptions that were not valid with SSTU.  The PR to fix has been merged though, so it should be working with the next version of FAR, whenever that is.

[Nertea]

23 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

I have just switched the LH2 back to real-world density.  Upcoming/future releases should be able to build proper scaled D-IV / SLS rockets with sufficient TWR (though massively overpowered still from a dV perspective for the stock system).

That leaves me with a ... situation?... problem? with an unbalance compared to NearFuture tanks.  Seems like I can either 1.) Ignore the problem, as its not really my problem to solve, or 2.) Create a patch that 'fixes' the density of the fuels for NearFuture tanks whenever it is installed with SSTU.  I -really- don't like messing with stock or other mods' parts (as someone always seems to be confused / complain about it), so I'll likely go with #1.

I am not sure what the best path forwards is. The problem with me reverting non-stuffed density is that there's a lack of large enough fuel tanks to make vehicles of useful fuel capacities.

So you're using essentially half of mine now (as CryoTanks definitions essentially halve LH2 density)? Or did you change other things?

I'm not sure you need to do anything to the NF tanks though, to be honest. Since someone using SSTU is probably using your own lifter tanks, the only "problem" is the orbital tanks, and they are just over-stuffed. The mass ratio shouldn't change. If you accept that the orbital tanks are volumetrically imbalanced, that should be ok... as they should still be mass-balanced. 

 

[Shadowmage]

9 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I am not sure what the best path forwards is. The problem with me reverting non-stuffed density is that there's a lack of large enough fuel tanks to make vehicles of useful fuel capacities.

So you're using essentially half of mine now (as CryoTanks definitions essentially halve LH2 density)? Or did you change other things?

I'm not sure you need to do anything to the NF tanks though, to be honest. Since someone using SSTU is probably using your own lifter tanks, the only "problem" is the orbital tanks, and they are just over-stuffed. The mass ratio shouldn't change. If you accept that the orbital tanks are volumetrically imbalanced, that should be ok... as they should still be mass-balanced. 

 

Probably not a very big problem, all things considered.

Lifter tanks -- SSTU tanks scale to absurd sizes, so there is no problem for getting large enough tanks for lifters.  Not so much of an option for your tanks, so I can see where the double density can be useful there.

Orbital tanks -- Once in orbit it is really only mass fraction that matters (joint rigidity aside), and I believe we are in the same rough range for mass-fraction (though my tanks change depending on their 'type').  So for orbital tanks it really comes down to a player choice for aesthetics -- smaller and kerbal-sized, or more real-scaled behemoth-sized.  There are a few cross-over areas, such as vacuum landers on low-grav worlds where nukes/hydrolox might be used.... but I'm personally fine using the honor system for those situations (and double-density actually makes sense for some of those, given the insane density used for the other overweight stock parts such as pods/lander cans).

In the end I'm fine with 'doing nothing'.  Having double-density tanks available from NF allows for some aesthetic choice for some craft designs, while the SSTU tanks will still allow for 'scale recreation' type setups that people seem to crave.  As long as the fuel ratios are kept consistent between the mods, the only real difference the fuel density makes is in the size of the craft (as dry mass/mass fraction should be relatively constant for a given fuel volume).

[Temeter]

At least if you're thinking about a players (not a modders) perspective; then IMO this isn't really a problem at all.

Mods are always a nice way to expand the game, and offer experiences building on the base game or subverting it. Having one mod keeping things kerbal, and another one using the same system but more real world'ish scale, isn't a detriment, but a plus because it allows more diverse playstyles. Sometimes you just want to build real looking stuff in the game without going RO (which is a (wonderful) niche), and SSTU in general has been great for that purpose.

I mean, if it fits what you want to do with your mod, then that's a really good solution in my book.

[Peirogi]

Quick Question, I don't know if this has been answered before or not *( if it was, sorry)*

How do you get the solar panels on the side of the Service Module for the Orion pod to deploy? There is no option, and I end up having to place the ones that come with this mod, that start deployed and cannot be retracted, nor set to not to deploy on start

[tater]

49 minutes ago, Peirogi said:

Quick Question, I don't know if this has been answered before or not *( if it was, sorry)*

How do you get the solar panels on the side of the Service Module for the Orion pod to deploy? There is no option, and I end up having to place the ones that come with this mod, that start deployed and cannot be retracted, nor set to not to deploy on start

It's in the right click menu of the service module in flight. "Extend panels."

Edited October 13, 2016 by tater

[Peirogi]

6 minutes ago, tater said:

It's in the right click menu of the service module in flight. "Extend panels."

It's not there. I've been playing Kerbal for a long time now aswell as with mods, and I used a fresh install with this and I get the same thing.

 

[tater]

1 hour ago, Peirogi said:

It's not there. I've been playing Kerbal for a long time now aswell as with mods, and I used a fresh install with this and I get the same thing.

 

I just launched a 1.1.3 with nothing but SSTU and tested. Works fine.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by tater

[mechanicH]

Looks like it's working as advertised 

[Jimbodiah]

6 hours ago, Peirogi said:

How do you get the solar panels on the side of the Service Module for the Orion pod to deploy? There is no option, and I end up having to place the ones that come with this mod, that start deployed and cannot be retracted, nor set to not to deploy on start

Has your game updated to 1.2 perhaps?

[tater]

So the new science container is a thing...

Will that be added to some or all crew parts?

MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleScienceContainer
		
		reviewActionName = Review Stored Data
		storeActionName = Store Experiments
		evaOnlyStorage = True // i.e. can nearby regular vessels also do this, or EVA only
		storageRange = 1.3
		canBeTransferredToInVessel = True
		canTransferInVessel = True
		showStatus = True
	}

Nice to not have to EVA to collect all science instruments on the craft.  I can't see any limit... too bad, it would be nice to have containers that hold different amounts.

[Jimbodiah]

Science is just data on a hard-drive, one size fits all. I don't see the benefit of this part, as any command pod can already do the same. Maybe it works on probe cores too, to allow multiple experiments without the need of a scientist?

[Shadowmage]

13 hours ago, Jimbodiah said:

Has your game updated to 1.2 perhaps?

Seems likely; that is about the only reason those options would not show up (because the 1.1.3 plugin won't load in 1.2 due to API changes).

 

52 minutes ago, tater said:

So the new science container is a thing...

Will that be added to some or all crew parts?

Nice to not have to EVA to collect all science instruments on the craft.  I can't see any limit... too bad, it would be nice to have containers that hold different amounts.

Possibly.  I'll have to see if I can tie it to a tech-upgrade though, or I guess it might not matter as none of my pods are available too early in the tree.  Trying to avoid the situation of allowing 'cheating' in early career before EVA is unlocked; generally not a problem though by the time the SC-A/Soyuz parts are available.

 

1 minute ago, Jimbodiah said:

Science is just data on a hard-drive, one size fits all. I don't see the benefit of this part, as any command pod can already do the same. Maybe it works on probe cores too, to allow multiple experiments without the need of a scientist?

The entire benefit of the part (PartModule rather) is that you don't need to EVA to pickup the science, nor try and click on fiddly little experiments.  Just hit the button and it is all collected.  Really it probably -should- be a feature in all command pods and probe cores even in stock.

[Jimbodiah]

15 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

The entire benefit of the part (PartModule rather) is that you don't need to EVA to pickup the science, nor try and click on fiddly little experiments.  Just hit the button and it is all collected.  Really it probably -should- be a feature in all command pods and probe cores even in stock.

No doubt a patch can do this for all parts already containing ModuleScienceContainer, even I can make one so it can't be all that hard

 

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleScienceContainer]]
{
	%canBeTransferredToInVessel = True
	%canTransferInVessel = True
	%showStatus = True
}

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Jimbodiah

[Pappystein]

10 hours ago, Jimbodiah said:

No doubt a patch can do this for all parts already containing ModuleScienceContainer, even I can make one so it can't be all that hard

 

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleScienceContainer]]
{
	%canBeTransferredToInVessel = True
	%canTransferInVessel = True
	%showStatus = True
}

 

AWESOME!  Saving as CFG now!   Thanks!