Flags and Wind Direction?

[Higgs]

Ok, gonna start of by saying this to the mods: if ive miss-located this thread, redirect it to a more suitable home on the forums as honestly, i doubt this is a bug, but, sure does warrant some discussion if only to point it out lol. Now, with that said:

Check this out yall. If you have ever gone to the coast you know the wind tends to, most of the time, come off the water. Well, with that being said, what gives at the KSC, I am showing yall a picture that makes no sense from a reality point of view. The wind moving the flag at the pad is heading out to sea, not heading onto land. Now, before anyone barks at me that this is a game, and shouldnt be taken all that seriously, I point out, some of this game is being taken seriously, what with all the work on atmospherics and heating, why not have the flag point as if the wind is coming ashore? just askin. Thoughts below please

like i said, what the jebs evil smile is goin on with the winds?

[Tex_NL]

... If you have ever gone to the coast you know the wind tends to, most of the time, come off the water. ...

This is a bogus assumption! Wind direction has NOTHING to do with the coastline and everything with high and low air pressure.

And yes. I do visit the coast rather frequently as I live less than 10 kilometers from it. To be more precise I live on an island. The wind ALWAYS comes from the sea but also ALWAYS blows out to sea.

Your assumption is pure bovine faecal matter.

So, that was rant mode. Now back to more serious details.

The KSC is actually flying in the correct direction. Due to the Coriolis effect general wind directions on earth range from north-west to south-west. Kerbin spins in the same direction so winds would generally be blowing in the same direction as well.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tex_NL

[Higgs]

This is a bogus assumption! Wind direction has NOTHING to do with the coastline and everything with high and low air pressure.

And yes. I do visit the coast rather frequently as I live less than 10 kilometers from it. To be more precise I live on an island. The wind ALWAYS comes from the sea but also ALWAYS blows out to sea.

<deleted this line, as its absolutely uncalled for, rude, nasty and so on.>

I am going to say this once. Your reply was a 80-20 mix of rude (80) and useful (20). You made an assumption that, I was not being precise. This is far from the truth. I live with 2 hours of the gulf coast of the US. I myself have spent copious amounts of time on the coast, and 99% of the time I am there, guess what, the winds are coming off the Gulf. You also ran right past the point of my post. Given what we all know of how wind works, why is the wind in KSP 180 degrees off of what we see 99% of the time? If Tex, you have no answer that can help with this particular thread, I humbly ask you to refrain from commenting.

[Pecan]

...why is the wind in KSP 180 degrees off of what we see 99% of the time?..

If location matters, I live 30-minutes walk from the sea. If experience matters, until recently I spent 10 years living on yachts; mainly sailing around the North Sea and Mediteranean but including 3 Atlantic crossings and time in the Caribbean.

The sea tends to maintain an almost constant temperature, while the land heats-up and cools-down much more during the day/night. Keeping it simple (don't base any forecasts just on this!) land warmer = air rising over land, falling over sea = sea breeze, usually during the day. Conversely land cooler = air rising over sea, falling over land = land breeze, usually at night.

So, yes, if there were any wind at all in KSP the sea breeze (which is usually very weak compared to other weather influences) for daylight launches 'should' make the flag point inland, out to sea for night launches. But which way is inland? KSC is almost surrounded by sea on three sides and has mountains to the West. At 4km high those aren't insignificant lumps of rock and would act as a block on any wind blowing due West; both physically and because you'd expect an almost-continuous "fall wind" to be pushing East from there. The most open direction for the wind to flow would probably be Southwest from KSC, almost parallel to the coast there and South of the mountains. Overall, this guesstimate would suggest winds over KSC would vary roughly from NW to NE during the day, backing SW during the night, but probably never as far as South.

Conclusion: hmmm, there isn't much of a sea breeze in your picture, the major effect being the prevailing and katabatic winds from the moutains. Were it a hotter day the bay to the North would have more effect and the flag would be pointing more South, even Southwest.

Meterology ^^. Fun, isn't it.

EDIT: AW gah! I had so many unfinished sentences and typos in that it was all wrong *facepalm*

Edited August 2, 2015 by Pecan

[GoSlash27]

Littoral winds generally go out to sea in the daytime and inland at night. Has to do with the relative temperatures of the land and water.

*edit* Or do I have that backwards??

My memory ain't what it used to be...

IAC this may or may not be technically accurate depending on your POV, but it *definitely* isn't worth getting into a flamewar over.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited August 2, 2015 by GoSlash27

[mikegarrison]

Wind patterns are more complicated than just "the wind blows in from the sea." Onshore and offshore winds are both common. As the other poster noted, winds generally blow west globally (though this varies with latitude and there are prevailing wind patterns that also blow east).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_breeze

But anyway, since there is no wind on Kerbin, we can assume the flags are held by wire or something, just like the flags that kerbals place on other planets and moons.

Edited August 2, 2015 by mikegarrison

[razark]

What wind?

[RocketPilot573]

What wind?

Agreed, I'm pretty sure the flag is ridged.

[kujuman]

I actually know why the flag points the direction it does (even during launches...)--KSC wants the flags to fly the "right" direction during launches, and so have installed an intricate system of fans to blow the flag majestically, for all to admire! :-)

[softweir]

Littoral winds generally go out to sea in the daytime and inland at night. Has to do with the relative temperatures of the land and water.

*edit* Or do I have that backwards??

My memory ain't what it used to be...

IAC this may or may not be technically accurate depending on your POV, but it *definitely* isn't worth getting into a flamewar over.

Best,

-Slashy

Other way round! The land warms up faster during the day than water (for various reasons) so generates thermal updraughts, and cooler air flows in from the sea to replace the rising air. During the night the land cools down faster, so now the thermals are more powerful over the water and air tends to flow out to sea.

Of course this all assumes that all other causes for wind are weak enough to allow this: trade winds and other wind-generators will frequently force air to move contrary to the Littoral winds.

Anyway: no wind in KSP. The flag has got wire stiffener in it, just the same as the American flags on the moon.

[Vanamonde]

No need to get mad at each other about this, guys. Watch your tempers, please.

[Zoidos]

This is a bogus assumption! Wind direction has NOTHING to do with the coastline and everything with high and low air pressure.

And yes. I do visit the coast rather frequently as I live less than 10 kilometers from it. To be more precise I live on an island. The wind ALWAYS comes from the sea but also ALWAYS blows out to sea.

Your assumption is pure bovine faecal matter.

So, that was rant mode. Now back to more serious details.

The KSC is actually flying in the correct direction. Due to the Coriolis effect general wind directions on earth range from north-west to south-west. Kerbin spins in the same direction so winds would generally be blowing in the same direction as well.

Actually the coriolos effect hasthe opposite effect: it makes winds at the equator blow from east to west (passat wind). Which would confirm the original statement of this post. @OP: wind direction varies during the day. Generally, water keeps heat better than land. Thus, in the morning, when land is heated up bythe sunlight, the pressure above land increases, creating winds towards the sea. In the evening land cools down faster than water, so the pressure above the sea is getting higher above the water, turning the wind direction. So at least during parts of the day the ksc flagis pointing in the right direction .

Anyway, this discussion will truly make sense when and if actual winds are implemented to the game

[GoSlash27]

Actually the coriolos effect hasthe opposite effect: it makes winds at the equator blow from east to west (passat wind). Which would confirm the original statement of this post. @OP: wind direction varies during the day. Generally, water keeps heat better than land. Thus, in the morning, when land is heated up bythe sunlight, the pressure above land increases, creating winds towards the sea. In the evening land cools down faster than water, so the pressure above the sea is getting higher above the water, turning the wind direction. So at least during parts of the day the ksc flagis pointing in the right direction .

Anyway, this discussion will truly make sense when and if actual winds are implemented to the game

Ahh, but remember that the coriolis effect is dependent on the radius of the body as well as it's rotational velocity.

The Earth has tropical "doldrums" and a westward equatorial jetstream due to our large diameter. Jupiter has many such reversals, which is why it has so many bands.

On a small planet like Kerbin, there's not enough room to make reversals.

/Serious discussion of nonexistent winds

Best,

-Slashy

[tomf]

I would expect there to be at least a pair of hadley cells on kerbin, so KSC being exactly on the equator is going to be in doldrums with no prevailing wind. Which matches ob servations of their being no wind there. The flag must be held up with wire.

[Tex_NL]

OK. I might have been wrong about the wind direction at the equator. But that doesn't change the fact wind does not always blows inland.

And if you actually look at the KSC flag for a change you'll see it is not just held up by wire it moves as if there is a good amount of wind.

[Windspren]

It's a conspiracy! Kerbals never landed on Kerbin. See, the flag is blowing!

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

Agreed, I'm pretty sure the flag is ridged.

Like the Apollo flags, kerbals decided that to make the glory of kerbin fly in all weather, they put a cleverly designed pole along the top, which can bend sideways, but not up and down. When there is no wind, a motor simulates the motion of the wind.

[GoSlash27]

OK. I might have been wrong about the wind direction at the equator. But that doesn't change the fact wind does not always blows inland.

And if you actually look at the KSC flag for a change you'll see it is not just held up by wire it moves as if there is a good amount of wind.

But if you launch a rocket right next to that flag, your exhaust doesn't drift because there's not actually any wind at all. Ergo the fluttering of the flag is simulated.

Why do Kerbals create the illusion of wind? Same reason they make the illusion of daylight in the VAB in the middle of the night: To cover up the conspiracy.

/illuminati

[SpenSpaceCorp]

I just don't like how on the Mun the flags sometimes point towards the hills rather than away. Usually the Munar winds tend to blow from up the hill down into the Mun valleys!

[LordFerret]

If we're to lend any credence to winds at KSC being indicated by the direction the flag is luffing, then start position for take-offs on the runway are facing the wrong direction ... you always take off and land into the wind (when possible).

[razark]

...start position for take-offs on the runway are facing the wrong direction ... you always take off and land into the wind

You're talking about a group of beings that tend to launch themselves into orbit before figuring out what a wheel is.

Chances are, they don't even know they have a flag. One of them just happened to get his shirt caught on an antenna tower.

[LordFerret]

You're talking about a group of beings that tend to launch themselves into orbit before figuring out what a wheel is.

Chances are, they don't even know they have a flag. One of them just happened to get his shirt caught on an antenna tower.

I'll guess that goes along with their running fuel lines externally on their planes.

[bonyetty]

I'm go a boot up KSP right now and plant a flag on the flag pole.

[Zoidos]

You're talking about a group of beings that tend to launch themselves into orbit before figuring out what a wheel is.

LOL this is the best description of the Kerbal mind I've read so far.

- - - Updated - - -

*snip*

Yes, you're totally right. I was only referring to the local winds at KSC, which is located on the equator. The local non-existent winds I mean

[Rithsom]

You're talking about a group of beings that tend to launch themselves into orbit before figuring out what a wheel is.

Chances are, they don't even know they have a flag. One of them just happened to get his shirt caught on an antenna tower.

That first sentence is going in my sig!

Anyway, I never really thought about the flag and wind direction. It is a video game, after all.