A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Mister Dilsby]

46 minutes ago, SaturnianBlue said:

So as a general rule, what's the amount of images that should be in a page? 3-4? I've kind of started to try the main image, several small ones, but I'm not sure if it's all that great yet. Also another thing: how large should the character pictures be? I'm assuming they might be a little too small. Sometimes the length of dialogue might differ by character and personality. About the plot: could it partially be because I drop a few hints for something for an episode later, but isn't really discussed much in the episode itself, and the subplots are made but really don't get put into action?

Have enough images, but not too many. Make the portraits big enough, but not too big. Make dialogue long enough, but not too long. Have subplots, but not too many. Foreshadow, but not too much.

There aren't actually any rules, Blue, or at least none that are always true for every story and author. Look at comics you like by different writers and artists. See what they do. Know that styles differ, especially among the masters--a Kirby page looks nothing like a Miller page but they're both very, very good. Figure out for yourself what makes good comics good. Do those things that you like, and can execute well. Make art that you want to look at, and the rest can all hang  

[Just Jim]

38 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Have enough images, but not too many. Make the portraits big enough, but not too big. Make dialogue long enough, but not too long. Have subplots, but not too many. Foreshadow, but not too much.

There aren't actually any rules, Blue, or at least none that are always true for every story and author. Look at comics you like by different writers and artists. See what they do. Know that styles differ, especially among the masters--a Kirby page looks nothing like a Miller page but they're both very, very good. Figure out for yourself what makes good comics good. Do those things that you like, and can execute well. Make art that you want to look at, and the rest can all hang  

To follow up, if I may, I think it depends a lot on the content of the page, or chapter, in question.  Some of mine, for example, are quite long, and have as many as 30 screenshots to go along.  But other chapters are much shorter, and only have a few pics.

I'm not following any general rule, I'm following my gut, and my instincts, so to speak.  I don't plan ahead what length or how many pictures a page or chapter should have, I let the story be the guide.  The only thing I try to work at is finding a really good place to end a chapter or page.  I like to end on cliffhangers, or something climactic, whenever possible.  I'm not terribly concerned if it takes 3 paragraphs and pictures to get there, or 30, so be it. 
Always try to end a chapter at a place the readers will scream, "Noooo!!!  What's gonna happen now???" 

My only concern, and top priority, is to try my best to leave readers wanting more.  Most important, make them want to come back when I post a new chapter.  And the weird thing is, the last couple chapters I've gotten fewer comments, other than joking and having fun with a few hardcore friends.  But I posted a new chapter a couple days ago, and had over 500 views in less than 24 hours.  So feedback or not, I suppose I can safely assume I've doing something right.

And also like Kuzzner advises, and I couldn't agree with more, check out different writers, find your favorite, and don't just read them, study them. Don't necessarily copy them; it's more about finding what it is about them that turns you on, and then use it to your advantage.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Just Jim

[Mister Dilsby]

On 2/6/2016 at 1:02 PM, Just Jim said:

To follow up, if I may, I think it depends a lot on the content of the page, or chapter, in question. 

Exactly. And that's why no one can give you the 'formula' for a page layout. 

Here's an exercise--you might even call it a challenge! Let's see how different artists approach the same page layout problem...what if we start with Jeb and a craft consisting of (from top to bottom) a Mk16 parachute, a Mk1 capsule, a decoupler, an FL-400 fuel tank and a T-30 engine. Tell the story of his suborbital flight, without words. There are no points, there are no winners. Just post your version of the story here for open discussion.  

I can't do mine right now because I've been working on the Intrepid for the last two hours and am thoroughly burnt out, but I promise that as challenge OP I will certainly make an entry.  

[KSK]

 As a complete neophyte when it comes to graphic novels, I'd like to give that a try once I'm done with the next chapter of First Flight. I strongly suspect that my minds eye will see further than my ability with pictures can reach, aka 'it'll look awesome in the privacy of my own head - far less so on the actual screen', but we'll see what happens!

[CalculusWarrior]

This is a neat challenge, @Kuzzter! I'm not very experienced with the graphic novel way of telling a story, but I may give that a try, once I've the time. 

 

Otherwise, I'd like to ask for feedback on my story, A Planet Divided (apologies for the somewhat roundabout way of reading it, the forum update borked the original thread). I've taken a bit of a hiatus to take another look at my grand plan as to how the story will go forward, and want to get some outside feedback on my writing so far. At the moment I think my biggest issues are my lack of frequency of updates and that I tend towards large walls of text, perhaps scaring off new readers.

My thanks to you all!

[0111narwhalz]

I can't help but think that I'm neglecting Kerbal Future in favor of Warped Stars. It hasn't had an update in some time. However, the story isn't really calling to me.

But, people seem to like it, and I can hardly just let it fall by the wayside. That'd just be rude.

So, should I push through the block, or let it percolate?

 

Also, how are you guys liking Warped Stars? It's just about to get to the really fun part. I'm having lots of fun writing it and exploring all the unintended consequences of reactionless drives, like ^[REDACTED] and _[SPOILERS]. Especially when crazy buggers do things like _[STAHP].

[KSK]

11 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

I can't help but think that I'm neglecting Kerbal Future in favor of Warped Stars. It hasn't had an update in some time. However, the story isn't really calling to me.

But, people seem to like it, and I can hardly just let it fall by the wayside. That'd just be rude.

So, should I push through the block, or let it percolate?

 

Also, how are you guys liking Warped Stars? It's just about to get to the really fun part. I'm having lots of fun writing it and exploring all the unintended consequences of reactionless drives, like ^[REDACTED] and _[SPOILERS]. Especially when crazy buggers do things like _[STAHP].

I'm really enjoying Warped Stars. I don't remember the exact words but speaking about Terminator 2, James Cameron once said something along the lines of 'get all the ordinary bits really right and it'll make all the implausible bits fit in.' That sums up Warped Stars for me - I really like the attention you've paid to engineering and testing the Kraken drive.

Personally, I would say that if you're having fun writing Warped Stars then focus on that and put Kerbal Future on hold for a bit. Keeping one story going can be tough enough. Keeping two going... I don't want to think about that! Besides, if you ever hit a block with Stars then working on Future for a bit might be the change of pace you need to get unblocked.

[Commander Zoom]

What KSK said about Warped Stars.

[SaturnianBlue]

I've generally reduced the amount of images on each page for The Asteroid Sentinels, tried to cut the dialogue a bit to something fairly simple (though my newest one is does have quite a bit of dialogue). I've tried my best to keep the endings at cliffhanger-ish bits.  I'd also like a bit of feedback on the characters in my story.

Edited February 19, 2016 by SaturnianBlue

[Ehco Corrallo]

I used cliffhangers almost religiously once. Now I don't. 

Instead I start my chapters with something big, and then work through the following few chapters in an attempt to resolve whatever new chaos I've thrown into the mix. 

Example: 

Me: "What's that Ehco? The war you started is going according to plan?" [Ehco Corrallo is both my username, and the protagonist of a novel I'm writing]

Ehco: "Yeah, everything's sort of fine, actually." 

Me: "Oops." 

Ehco: "What oops?" 

Me: "An elite army of Hujan troopers may or may not have made landfall around where you were trying to gain a foothold."

Ehco: "What? Why would you-" 

Me: "Have fun trying to resolve it." 

This is a rather protracted example, and slightly exaggerated also, but it basically explains what I'm talking about: Chapter starts, new obstacle, exhausted protagonist works to mitigate disaster. Essentially, I just move the cliffhanger from the end of the last chapter to the start of the latest one.  

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ehco Corrallo

[KSK]

15 hours ago, CalculusWarrior said:

This is a neat challenge, @Kuzzter! I'm not very experienced with the graphic novel way of telling a story, but I may give that a try, once I've the time. 

 

Otherwise, I'd like to ask for feedback on my story, A Planet Divided (apologies for the somewhat roundabout way of reading it, the forum update borked the original thread). I've taken a bit of a hiatus to take another look at my grand plan as to how the story will go forward, and want to get some outside feedback on my writing so far. At the moment I think my biggest issues are my lack of frequency of updates and that I tend towards large walls of text, perhaps scaring off new readers.

My thanks to you all!i 

I find frequency of updates to be the main challenge myself. I don't have any hard evidence for this but I would think that regular updates can only help to hold reader interest and generate discussion - and that tends to be the start of a virtuous cycle of views and new readers. Unfortunately, as I think we all know, real life gets in the way and dedicated as us KSP fanfic writers are, sometimes it's nice to do something other than eat, sleep, day job and working on the next chapter.  

The possible wall 'o text issue - I'm not the best person to comment on that really, as I have more than a passing fondness for them myself. I've said it before though and I'll say it again - I've seen great examples on this forum of pure prose, graphic novels and about every level of illustrated story in between. All of them have had their aficionados, so pick yer poison, pick up yer pen and have at it! Your writing is easily good enough to stand alone without any pictures, so the level of illustration is really up to what you find fun to do.

[Just Jim]

9 minutes ago, KSK said:

I find frequency of updates to be the main challenge myself. I don't have any hard evidence for this but I would think that regular updates can only help to hold reader interest and generate discussion - and that tends to be the start of a virtuous cycle of views and new readers. Unfortunately, as I think we all know, real life gets in the way and dedicated as us KSP fanfic writers are, sometimes it's nice to do something other than eat, sleep, day job and working on the next chapter.  

 

I try very, very hard to keep my gaps between chapters to only a few days, a week at most.  Sometimes this isn't possible, and then I'll try to post some sort of update as to what's going on.  I haven't had any complaints, but I figure at this point I've sort of committed myself to this, and I should make the effort to keep up.  And like you point out, I don't want people to lose interest, or think I've gone onto something else.

 

12 minutes ago, KSK said:

 

The possible wall 'o text issue - I'm not the best person to comment on that really, as I have more than a passing fondness for them myself. I've said it before though and I'll say it again - I've seen great examples on this forum of pure prose, graphic novels and about every level of illustrated story in between. All of them have had their aficionados, so pick yer poison, pick up yer pen and have at it!

 

I'm not a big fan of too much wall o' text, and try to keep mine to a minimum.  And when I can, break it up with a screenshot.  But it can go both ways, you can write too little, or do too many screenshots with no text, which I don't think works well either. 

I figure I shouldn't write something unless it needs to be said.  By that I mean some mission reports I've seen tend to ramble on without being useful to a story.  Launches are a good example I see a lot.  They're fine, but unless your launching something really unique and exciting, or you plan on having something go horribly wrong, I see no reason to write out every single detail launch after launch, and think this can lose a reader. 

If you plan on blowing it up, then definitely you can go into more detail to build the suspense. 

Again, same with screenshots.  I try to limit them to as few as possible.  I would much rather take the time to set up, capture and post 4 or 5 really good, relevant ones than a dozen that don't say much, or are too repetitive.

I suppose it's like cooking, too little or too much of an ingredient will ruin the dish... balance is everything. 

[Ehco Corrallo]

34 minutes ago, KSK said:

The possible wall 'o text issue - I'm not the best person to comment on that really, as I have more than a passing fondness for them myself. I've said it before though and I'll say it again - I've seen great examples on this forum of pure prose, graphic novels and about every level of illustrated story in between. All of them have had their aficionados, so pick yer poison, pick up yer pen and have at it! Your writing is easily good enough to stand alone without any pictures, so the level of illustration is really up to what you find fun to do.

I have to agree. Writing is a practically limitless medium, and it's just as much about omission as it is about inclusion. It's your choice whether you want to work on graphic novels, or to stay with prose, or to include illustrations alongside your blocks of text. I'm fine writing for anything, but I'm definitely most comfortable writing novels and serial stories. I've tried writing comic scripts, TV scripts, and short films, but I honestly prefer the level of control that's afforded by having only a single layer of composition. It's very much up to personal preference.

[steuben]

I've thinking about the YAML problem. Doing a quick survey it looks like most of the stories here seem to focus on the man in the can. I've been sketching a series trying to focus on the ground bound folks Walt, Mortimer, Linus, the Calculator Corp (Linus thinks they're scary, lead by Katherine Kerman), and a few others against my current career profile. I think most of the conflict will be between personalities, Mort against the general wackiness, Linus against the Corp, Gus against Jeb.

 

Any traps I should be thinking of? I know the three guys at a desk discussing spreadsheets and TPS reports is boring doesn't make for good drama.

[Ehco Corrallo]

2 hours ago, steuben said:

I've thinking about the YAML problem. Doing a quick survey it looks like most of the stories here seem to focus on the man in the can. I've been sketching a series trying to focus on the ground bound folks Walt, Mortimer, Linus, the Calculator Corp (Linus thinks they're scary, lead by Katherine Kerman), and a few others against my current career profile. I think most of the conflict will be between personalities, Mort against the general wackiness, Linus against the Corp, Gus against Jeb.

 

Any traps I should be thinking of? I know the three guys at a desk discussing spreadsheets and TPS reports is boring doesn't make for good drama.

"Man in the can."  

A few things to consider: 

• Drama isn't always necessary, suspense is often a more subtle option. (I'm not talking cliffhangers here, either, just careful pacing.) 
• Conflict between characters might not be the root of a story, but it is a major contributor, just make sure to mix things up every once in awhile. Remember that just because two (or more!) characters stand in opposition, doesn't mean they don't agree on some things. 
• If you want your series to progress and establish a narrative, make sure that at least one of your characters has some sort of motivation and some sort of goal. 
• Spreadsheet discussion might not be interesting if your characters are only discussing spreadsheets; a bit of digression and banter can easily make a mundane scene seem significantly more alive. Introspection is another way to combat stagnation in an unavoidably dull scene. 

Most of this is a little remedial and rather general, but it's worth bearing in mind. Hope it helps, at least somewhat. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Ehco Corrallo

[KSK]

Graphic novel challenge accepted...

[KSK]

Ooof - this powerpointillism (or keynotism in my case) stuff is tough, especially with no dialogue to work with. Deep respect to all the graphic novelists out there - and give me plain ol' words any day of the week!

Getting all the characters in the same place at the same time, trying to get that launch shot (the first several attempts were... not dramatic) and then the cropping and layout. Best part of an evening's work all told and even then I think it lacks a certain oomph. With prose, I can describe sound, smell, vibration, all the visceral stuff that conveys the ground-shaking power of a rocket launch. With a graphic novel I only have sight to work with, which requires a rather different approach I'm thinking, especially in stock KSP where things like engine plumes aren't terribly dramatic to begin with.

It was certainly an interesting exercise though - thanks for suggesting it Kuzzter!

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by KSK

[Ten Key]

6 hours ago, steuben said:

I've thinking about the YAML problem. Doing a quick survey it looks like most of the stories here seem to focus on the man in the can. I've been sketching a series trying to focus on the ground bound folks Walt, Mortimer, Linus, the Calculator Corp (Linus thinks they're scary, lead by Katherine Kerman), and a few others against my current career profile. I think most of the conflict will be between personalities, Mort against the general wackiness, Linus against the Corp, Gus against Jeb.

 

Any traps I should be thinking of? I know the three guys at a desk discussing spreadsheets and TPS reports is boring doesn't make for good drama.

That could be interesting. . .gives you the opportunity to tell the same story from a fresh perspective. 

One place you might run into trouble is that KSP gets the economics of spaceflight completely wrong. Payroll costs make up the majority of an organization's operating expenses, and in KSP these costs are ignored entirely. If you're running a mission report where you're actively tracking contracts, funds and what have you for the reader, you might find your "business" characters in a very weird position. When your reusable super SSTO lets you put payloads into orbit for almost nothing, why do you even need an accountant?

Conflicting personalities are all well and good, but conflicting responsibilities can be more interesting. And KSP makes that very difficult to do unless you're willing to fudge the numbers for the sake of the story. 

[Mister Dilsby]

4 hours ago, KSK said:

Ooof - this powerpointillism (or keynotism in my case) stuff is tough, especially with no dialogue to work with. Deep respect to all the graphic novelists out there - and give me plain ol' words any day of the week!

Yeah, I did set a tough one by saying "no words". I actually have all the screenshots for mine, but have hesitated putting it together because I didn't see the "oomph" in the pictures I had. With a little bit of dialogue I might be able to really do something with it--but nope, can't see it coming out according to my usual standards.

Thanks for taking this on. Tell you what, I'll post mine if you post yours  I just finished an update to Jool Odyssey and can get back to this little exercise next. 

[steuben]

10 hours ago, Ten Key said:

One place you might run into trouble is that KSP gets the economics of spaceflight completely wrong. Payroll costs make up the majority of an organization's operating expenses, and in KSP these costs are ignored entirely. If you're running a mission report where you're actively tracking contracts, funds and what have you for the reader, you might find your "business" characters in a very weird position. When your reusable super SSTO lets you put payloads into orbit for almost nothing, why do you even need an accountant?

The career will be the frame work that the story gets hung off of. The first time a tourist goes up that's a story. The tenth time it's shipping news.

 

15 hours ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

• Conflict between characters might not be the root of a story, but it is a major contributor, just make sure to mix things up every once in awhile. Remember that just because two (or more!) characters stand in opposition, doesn't mean they don't agree on some things. 

Opposition is easy. It is the ones that are orthogonal to each other, that's where the real action lies.

 

Quote

If you want your series to progress and establish a narrative, make sure that at least one of your characters has some sort of motivation and some sort of goal. 

All about the Goo. They know it is non-Newtonian, and some figure it is non-Euclidian and non-Einsteinian. Why else would it be the first bit of real science that has to be done? Though it is mostly a MacGuffin and me working a game play mechanic into the story.

Quote

Spreadsheet discussion might not be interesting if your characters are only discussing spreadsheets; a bit of digression and banter can easily make a mundane scene seem significantly more alive. Introspection is another way to combat stagnation in an unavoidably dull scene. 

I'm aiming for West Wing on this one. Cut the boring bits and cram exposition in when they're walking down the halls.

 

[Ehco Corrallo]

26 minutes ago, steuben said:

I'm aiming for West Wing on this one. Cut the boring bits and cram exposition in when they're walking down the halls.

Yep. That'd about be the way to do it. 

[SaturnianBlue]

So I finished Series 6 of The Asteroid Sentinels, but I wonder if there is general criticism for the whole series, as well as the last one. I think the pacing is pretty good, but it may have been slow. For one thing, the main "antagonist" really only had an appearance toward the later half. I tried to make the graphic novel a little clearer to read. Also not sure about characters. 

 

Also: Probably will be trying out that no words challenge soon.  

[Mister Dilsby]

4 hours ago, SaturnianBlue said:

So I finished Series 6 of The Asteroid Sentinels, but I wonder if there is general criticism for the whole series, as well as the last one. I think the pacing is pretty good, but it may have been slow. For one thing, the main "antagonist" really only had an appearance toward the later half. I tried to make the graphic novel a little clearer to read. Also not sure about characters. 

Hey, I'm caught up with this now. The general Kerbalkind reaction to the 'menace' was even better than the introduction of the menace itself. It raised the stakes and the emotion for all concerned, and also gave you an opportunity for some really good-looking scenes and graphics. I also find it to be allegorical for certain real-world problems, about which I will not be specific because that could tend to slide the conversation into areas where there are opportunities for forum rules to be broken. So anyway, I'll just say that this is good all around.

Now, this is your story: the impending disaster, the secondary effect of arguments and ignorance and counter-productive panic, and Our Heroes rushing to do something to save Kerbin, both on the ground (Walt, Mort, Gene etc.) and in space (Jeb,Val, Subeth etc.)  Concentrate on this conflict-- you don't need to spend a lot of time or panels on exactly how many seats are on what ships or who's going and who's staying, unless those things are directly important to the plot. Remember, a reader can only hold so many names and craft in his head at once. If you try to include all the details you'll lose momentum in telling your real story and possibly leave readers confused about what the real story is.

Finally, very neat solution with the conference table (looks like every movie conference ever, from the Rebel Alliance to Dr. Strangelove  )and pasting the portraits around it. Good visual there  

[CalculusWarrior]

It's been a while, but here's my submission for the graphic novel 'contest' you opened, @Kuzzter. It's certainly a different way of doing things, I really enjoyed telling a story in a different way!

 

 

[Mister Dilsby]

40 minutes ago, CalculusWarrior said:

It's been a while, but here's my submission for the graphic novel 'contest' you opened, @Kuzzter. It's certainly a different way of doing things, I really enjoyed telling a story in a different way!

Nice! You told the whole story with great pictures, and I particularly liked the "anticipatory" zoom-in on Jeb as well as your use of the other two kerbs to 'bookend' his flight. 

Now I wonder--if you absolutely had to get rid of those "arrows" directing the reader to the correct next panel, how would you do it? What could you re-arrange, re-size or remove to make it work without a pointer? No need to resubmit of course, just as a discussion point