Lost Cosmonauts

[Tex_NL]

At the risk of becoming political. It's typical Russian not to admit a mistake. Ever. It's seen as a weakness. It was true during the cold war, it is still true today.

With that in mind it would not surprise me Gagarin wasn't the first man in space. All we know for sure is he was the first to come back alive.

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Yes, lots of cold war stuff was known by the other side but kept secret by the other side as making it public would show your capabilities or even expose agents.

You also don't want to show your cards.

And yes the archives are public now and its no reason to keep them secret.

Disclosing your cold war victories and successes is easy. Disclosing your cold war failures and mistakes is an entirely different matter.

[Nibb31]

At the risk of becoming political. It's typical Russian not to admit a mistake. Ever. It's seen as a weakness. It was true during the cold war, it is still true today.

Yes, but we know so much more that corroborates the official story. And why lie about some fictitious astronauts that don't appear in any other documents, rosters, or military archives, and not lie about Komarov, Dobrovolski, Patsayev, and Volkov. Or Bodarenko and the Nedelin disaster.

With that in mind it would not surprise me Gagarin wasn't the first man in space. All we know for sure is he was the first to come back alive.

No, actual historians who have studied the archives and published books know a lot more than that actually.

The "Lost Astronauts" hoax is a classic that has been debunked over and over:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cosmonauts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judica-Cordiglia_brothers

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0235.shtml

Now that the Cold War has ended, the records of the Soviet space program have been opened and its failings have been exposed. Stories that had been successfully hidden for so long are now well known, such as the death of cosmonaut trainee Valentin Bondarenko, the massive casualties of the Nedelin Disaster, and the utter failure of the N1 lunar rocket. All of these events had existed as rumors in the USSR long before the fall of the Iron Curtain and were spread to the West by defectors, but most were not truly understood until the Soviet Union collapsed. By then, eye witnesses and family members were free to speak, personal diaries from those involved could be read, and official government records were obtained to confirm these rumors.

The tales that the Judica-Cordiglia brothers tell, on the other hand, never appeared in any form in the Soviet Union. There are no engineers from the Soviet space program who've said they worked on one of these failed missions, no family members who've spoken up for their martyred relatives, and no official or unofficial records of any kind to corroborate these rumors. The only proof we have that these events ever occurred come not from Russia, but from two brothers in Italy who have nothing to offer but a few garbled tapes that most observers cannot even decipher. While there is no absolute evidence to completely discount the Torre Bert claims, there is no proof to confirm them either. Until new evidence emerges to the contrary, we are forced to conclude that these missing cosmonauts never actually existed and the tales of their untimely deaths are nothing more than legend.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Nibb31

[Tex_NL]

Let me make clear I do NOT support any theory here. I am just being rational and observant.

Without full disclosure you can not make a definitive conclusion. And it's a solid fact Russia does not give full disclosure. Even if they say they do they don't.

[Nibb31]

Let me make clear I do NOT support any theory here. I am just being rational and observant.

Without full disclosure you can not make a definitive conclusion. And it's a solid fact Russia does not give full disclosure. Even if they say they do they don't.

Then what other documents could they probably disclose to prove that the lost cosmonauts never existed? You can't prove a negative.

There is conjecture with zero evidence on one side, and networks of corroborated testimonies and documents on the other. I don't understand how there could be any doubt about the nature of the Lost Cosmonauts hoax.

You don't need "full disclosure", when everything corroborates the real story, including personal diaries, testimonies, news articles, and Russian and US military archives.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Nibb31

[Mikki]

Let me make clear I do NOT support any theory here. I am just being rational and observant.

Without full disclosure you can not make a definitive conclusion. And it's a solid fact Russia does not give full disclosure. Even if they say they do they don't.

Please respect the perspective of people that actually are not former cold war enemies of the former russian administration.

You might be wrong. I might be wrong. They might be wrong. We might be wrong. Who is not wrong? Let us stop believing for our own sake.

Besides, there was an administration once on this planet that made use of nuclear weapons against civilians, twice. Was it wrong? Please do not answer, there is no answer, nowhere, never.

Friendly greetings from Skandinavia

Edited August 29, 2015 by Mikki
...I might be wrong. (naturally)

[Brethern]

I don't believe any of the lost cosmonaut stories, I believe yuri gargarin was the first man in space and the dog was the first living creature to be in space.

However I wouldn't be surprised if a cosmonaut or two were lost on suborbital flights before yuri flew. But as far as I am concerned what history says is what happened.

[Voyager275]

For all we know, the Soviets destroyed the cosmonauts files. It has been done all over the world multiple times. Plus why would they admit to sending cosmonauts too their doom. Its different if they died in a ground fire, but having them die alone in space would have hurt their nation tremendously

[Kryten]

You realise the Soviet space program was made up of real people, right? They weren't stamped-out brainwashed clones of the New Soviet Citizen, and many of them are still alive. They'd have no reason not to mention this part of the program in the various private memoirs that have been published, and no reason not to mention it now.

[sgt_flyer]

I don't believe any of the lost cosmonaut stories, I believe yuri gargarin was the first man in space and the dog was the first living creature to be in space.

However I wouldn't be surprised if a cosmonaut or two were lost on suborbital flights before yuri flew. But as far as I am concerned what history says is what happened.

Laika was the first dog in orbit russians sent other dogs to dpace on suborbital trajectories before (and the were recovered alive)

The first living creatures sent to space were fruit flies in 1947 on suborbital

[ComradeWolfe]

I'd assume the lost cosmonauts forgot where the moon was and went home to get a better map. (Bad joke?)

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I wouldn't be surprised if there were some cover-ups of deaths early on, as the Soviets were always big on hiding blemishes. That said, I suspect that those incidents are well enough hidden that even the conspiracy nuts don't have any clue about them.

As for the incidents said nuts like to talk about? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Like most 'conspiracies', the evidence is circumstantial, unlikely, and incomplete at best.

[LN400]

One thing to keep in mind is, when the first theories of "pre-Yuri" space travellers emerged, it was dab in the middle of the cold war with paranoid tendencies on both sides, among the public, the media and politicians alike. There was a fierce race going on, Sputnik shocked the West, both sides were desperate to be first at everything. You couldn't have found a better environment for conspiracy theories. Someone picked up something, but what that something was, well, nobody being able to tell or were ordered not to tell, it would have been a miracle of the highest order if there were no conspiracy theories and conspiracy theories have the property of not going away even when the truth is revealed. Call it mistrust, call it whatever you want but the way I see it, what we can tell from official documents that have been released, we have as full a story as we can ever get. Any alternative theories are a complete waste of time and effort the way I see it.

Edited August 31, 2015 by LN400
typo

[Bill Phil]

Then what other documents could they probably disclose to prove that the lost cosmonauts never existed? You can't prove a negative.

There is conjecture with zero evidence on one side, and networks of corroborated testimonies and documents on the other. I don't understand how there could be any doubt about the nature of the Lost Cosmonauts hoax.

You don't need "full disclosure", when everything corroborates the real story, including personal diaries, testimonies, news articles, and Russian and US military archives.

No evidence is not evidence of nothing.

Yes, it is very unlikely. But there is a possibility. Maybe they grabbed some people with no families, and didn't tell anyone. There is a possibility, despite it being very low.

[Kryten]

Yes, it is very unlikely. But there is a possibility. Maybe they grabbed some people with no families, and didn't tell anyone. There is a possibility, despite it being very low.

And then what? Who trained these 'some people', who were so incredibly loyal they haven't said a word even now? Who prepared the LV and spacecraft? Who transported the spacecraft to Baikonur? Who made sure none of the people who were at the launchsite saw this extra rocket with the extremely distinctive Vostok fairing?

[Brethern]

And then what? Who trained these 'some people', who were so incredibly loyal they haven't said a word even now? Who prepared the LV and spacecraft? Who transported the spacecraft to Baikonur? Who made sure none of the people who were at the launchsite saw this extra rocket with the extremely distinctive Vostok fairing?

A thousand people disappear every day without a trace, not to mention people were arrested all the time as enemies of the state.

For all the workers knew it was a test launch for a new space capsule they wouldn't have to know it was manned. Or they could have known and realized if they mentioned it to anyone they would be the next test dummy.

[MrWalrus123]

One recording supposedly records a female cosmonaut burning up upon reentry, 3 days later the USSR says a large satellite burned up upon reentry on the same day. I'm torn on this one

That at was disproven because the people who recorded it faked it

[Kryten]

A thousand people disappear every day without a trace, not to mention people were arrested all the time as enemies of the state.

For all the workers knew it was a test launch for a new space capsule they wouldn't have to know it was manned. Or they could have known and realized if they mentioned it to anyone they would be the next test dummy.

Right, so they killed everyone involved with this failed launch. Then they;

-Successfully covered up the murder and/or exile of a whole bunch of people at star city, baikonur, or both

-Announced success of Gagarin's launch to the world before he landed, so they couldn't do it again

-Didn't bump off the people who knew of Bondarenko's death, despite it occuring in the rough timeframe of the uncrewed Vostok test launches

[Brethern]

Right, so they killed everyone involved with this failed launch. Then they;

-Successfully covered up the murder and/or exile of a whole bunch of people at star city, baikonur, or both

-Announced success of Gagarin's launch to the world before he landed, so they couldn't do it again

-Didn't bump off the people who knew of Bondarenko's death, despite it occuring in the rough timeframe of the uncrewed Vostok test launches

No, what I'm saying is that finding a "volunteer" for a manned launch would be easy.

As far as people keeping quiet how many techs would really know what would be happening? When the test capsule is ready 99% of the techs are asked to leave as classified stuff is going on, so one or two are all that puts the cosmonaut in the capsule. They might guess what's happening but as I said before they know about the gulug why would they ever speak?

All I'm saying is that it's possible. Just because it takes hundreds to prep a rocket for launch doesn't mean it takes that many to strap a person into it. Besides a failed manned suborbital launch would be covered up fairly easily especially if few knew that it was manned.

[Kryten]

As far as people keeping quiet how many techs would really know what would be happening?

I'm not talking about just 'techs'; I'm talking about both people in charge of the cosmonaut corps and people like Korolev who were involved in every aspect of the program.

They might guess what's happening but as I said before they know about the gulug why would they ever speak?

How is anybody going to be sent to a gulag in 1961? It's Stalin's ghost going to drag them off, of was his death just a conspiracy as well?

[Bill Phil]

And then what? Who trained these 'some people', who were so incredibly loyal they haven't said a word even now? Who prepared the LV and spacecraft? Who transported the spacecraft to Baikonur? Who made sure none of the people who were at the launchsite saw this extra rocket with the extremely distinctive Vostok fairing?

It's possible they were silenced*. "They" being the people you mention.

*killed, or bribed, threatened, something like that

[Voyager275]

People who worked at Area 51 don't tell everything that was in there. Something's scaring them from talking

[LN400]

People working in intelligence services don't talk about their work either. Obligations. People beta testing KSP don't talk about things they're not supposed to talk about. Obligations. I don't see any reason to think people working at Area-51 would have had it any differently.

It took the British several decades after the world knew about public cryptography and RSA, before they acknowledged the work done by them on public cryptography. Even today, the details are secret. Doesn't bother me. It's the way it works in that business and we still have RSA being widely used by everyone, every day.

Nah, I don't buy into the Area-51 workers being scared. Just loyal to what they agreed on when they went into the business of Top Secret stuff: Keep their mouths shut.

[Voyager275]

Didn't the Soviets wait to see if Gagarins flight was successful before they announced it had happened?

[LN400]

I wouldn't know if they did but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they did wait. The reason for the wait is the real interesting question and to that I can only say I haven't got the slightest idea.

[Nothalogh]

I wouldn't know if they did but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they did wait. The reason for the wait is the real interesting question and to that I can only say I haven't got the slightest idea.

Most likely because they were playing fast and loose with the FAI, the Vostok flight profile din't meet the FAI rules at the time

[cicatrix]

Gagarin took off on April 12th 1961 at 9:07 (MSK) and landed at 10:55:34.

The first official announcement about his flight was broadcasted all over Soviet Union already at 10:02 (he was still in flight).

Logic suggests that if all these stories were true, the official announcement would have come out AFTER he landed (just to make sure).