[1.4] SpaceY Expanded, v1.5 (2018-04-02)

[smjjames]

Posted:

0.5.1 (2015-09-23) - Beta.
 - Adjusted P-series (Penguins) vacuum ISP to 390. Work in progress. 
 - Fixed a problem with the 7.5m tanks (and 5m tanks) working properly with Modular Fuel Tanks.

- - - Updated - - -

The P2 (5m) engine in particular, but the MM config was probably clobbering other 5m parts too. It was a bad wildcard.

The 'dual penguin'? That one showed up for me in science mode.

[NecroBones]

The 'dual penguin'? That one showed up for me in science mode.

What I think happened then, is that you probably unlocked it before I broke it. Once unlocked, it probably stayed unlocked.

[nsgallup]

Fixes posted:

0.5 (2015-09-23) - Beta.
 - Fixed an issue with some parts not being able to show up in CTT's tech tree. Requires SpaceY-Lifters v1.0.4 to be effective.
 - Corrected the names of the README and this CHANGELOG to reflect that it's the Expanded version of the mod.
 - Reduced P-series (Penguins) vacuum ISP to 380 (down from 400).

Excellent, thank you very much!

[PickledTripod]

You know, 390s is a very high specific impulse for a liquid fuel engine. Since 1.0 most stock engines have realistic values, it doesn't go higher than 350 (which is close to the theorical maximum for RP1+LOX engines IRL), even 380 like in the last update felt a bit too efficient to me.

[NecroBones]

You know, 390s is a very high specific impulse for a liquid fuel engine. Since 1.0 most stock engines have realistic values, it doesn't go higher than 350 (which is close to the theorical maximum for RP1+LOX engines IRL), even 380 like in the last update felt a bit too efficient to me.

They're modeled more on LH upper-stage engines, such as the J-2 on the Saturn V, which had 421s ISP in vacuum.

[PickledTripod]

Well the problem with that is that I also use Nertea's cryogenic engines. They have even higher Isp but they fit well in the stock balance because the fuel is much less dense, your Penguins give me way too much delta-v because of the combination of high Isp and high-density fuel and basically make cryo engines useless on large upper stages. If you want to keep these values that's fine, I'll just patch them myself to 370 or 360.

[xebx]

Well the problem with that is that I also use Nertea's cryogenic engines. They have even higher Isp but they fit well in the stock balance because the fuel is much less dense, your Penguins give me way too much delta-v because of the combination of high Isp and high-density fuel and basically make cryo engines useless on large upper stages. If you want to keep these values that's fine, I'll just patch them myself to 370 or 360.

LFO engines (LH2LOx) have 410-430 ISP (see Delta IV RS-68 or Ariane Vulcain) and these are main stage engines, not vaccum specialized engines like RL10 or Vinci (465 ISP).

400 ISP Penguin is a nerfed version of real ones. Don't use it if you think it overperforms, simple as that. Btw theoretical maximum for LFO is 500 ISP (tri propellant can go over 500)

And you can use the 800 ISP stock LVN, very unrealistic and op (i don't use it) when you consider nuclear engines don't exist, except very few prototypes with 800-900 ISP. Why have they not been nerfed in game version ?

People are free to use nerfed real engines or scifi unrealistic nonnerfed engines.

Edited September 24, 2015 by xebx

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

LFO engines (LH2LOx) have 410-430 ISP (see Delta IV RS-68 or Ariane Vulcain) and these are main stage engines, not vaccum specialized engines like RL10 or Vinci (465 ISP).

400 ISP Penguin is a nerfed version of real ones. Don't use it if you think it overperforms, simple as that. Btw theoretical maximum for LFO is 500 ISP (tri propellant can go over 500)

And you can use the 800 ISP stock LVN, very unrealistic and op (i don't use it) when you consider nuclear engines don't exist, except very few prototypes with 800-900 ISP. Why have they not been nerfed in game version ?

People are free to use nerfed real engines or scifi unrealistic nonnerfed engines.

LiquidFuel is actually more like kerosene (RP-1) in its density, which does produce Isp in the 250-350 s range. See the F-1, RD-170, and Merlin engines for some examples. A high-expansion-ratio nozzle can get better vacuum Isp (this site indicates that 390 s is possible for RP-1), at the cost of increased mass and poor atmospheric performance.

[Overlocker]

" One page of discussion, so here's my solution " The ISP of LFO engines should not go above 350 s, and if anyone wants real ISP from 350 on like LH2-LOX engines, with a ModuleManager patch to Penguin series and Moa series so they use LH2-LOX if the Cryogenic Rockets mod is installed should be enough, because the Moa is like the Rocketdyne J-2 which is LH2-LOX fueled (and Ratite series is like J-1 of course ), and the Penguin would be something like the Vulcain engine of the Ariane ( like xebx said ) So as I said Module Manager Patch if Cryogenic Rockets is installed and the mods are balanced again.

[Vahal]

I don't really get the point. Why should SpaceY Expanded (or another mod) be related to Cryogenic Engines (or another mod from someone else than Necrobones)? So, if ppl find the Penguin ISP too high they have several options:

1_ The simpliest one. not using it.

2_ A bit more complicated. Edit the .cfg and change the 390 into 340/345/350/whatever.

3_ Mastery level. Create your own MM config for Penguin to siwtch ISP from 390 to the wanted value.

And everyone will be happy.

[Overlocker]

Well is not related, thats why the Module Manager Patch is for, a few Kb of info that if you don't have installed Cryogenic Rockets is like if it wasn't there. Also SpaceY and most of Necrobones mods have MM patches for other mods, like Engine Ignitor, FAR, Remotetech, Tweakscale, ... and they aren't related to this mod. And the most important part is that Necrobones mods are made in a way that other stockalike mods fit just right when installed with this one, like Cryo Rockets, RLA Stockalike, ...

Edited September 25, 2015 by Overlocker

[Vahal]

yup since everything is optional, everyone can be happy.

[NecroBones]

I think I do have a solution.

I've been creating engine stats with a stock-alike balance in mind, not directly relating them to real world stats and fuels, but rather just taking some inspiration from reality to extend the stock-alike gameplay.

So with that in mind, what I think I'd like to do is this:

1. Return the Penguins to 400 ISP, by default.

2. Auto-detect CryoEngines also being installed, in which case the ISP drops to 370.

How does that sound? It'll help provide what people want in both circumstances.

[Overlocker]

Yeah, thats good, but actually I prefer if the 2nd point can make Penguin and Moa use LH2-LOX. The whole point of it its if someone have installed your mods AND Cryogenic Rockets, your tanks have LH2-LOX option too (Because of a MM patch of Cryo Rockets) so I want them to use it, because is more reallistic, but still stockalike, so it isn't if you installed Real Fuels, or Realism Overhaul or something " StockBreaking " (Actually things that aren't like stock KSP annoys me, like KSP Interstellar, that uses Tweakscale as a dependency not like your mods that have compatibility with it, and it brokes CTT compatible stockalike mods)

Also the later part is a opinion, in any case I want to start some discussion about stockalike mods ... I'm only supporting my point of view.

[Admac]

I noticed the penguins have zero gimbal, so even a little unbalanced load flies terribly. Any way we can get 2-3 degrees of wiggle in a later version?

[PickledTripod]

That sounds great, in fact the patch I made for myself last night does exactly that.

// Realistic rebalance of the Penguin line of engines in SpaceY-Expanded to better fit on a game with LH2 engines

@PART[SYengine*mP*]:NEEDS[CryoEngines]
{
    @MODULE[ModuleEngines]
    {
        !atmosphereCurve {}
        atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 360
            key = 1 250
            key = 6 0.001
        }
    }
}

Thanks for being so considerate of everyone's particular whims and fancies Bones

Edited September 25, 2015 by PickledTripod
Posted an old version that didn't work because of bad syntax xP

[NecroBones]

That sounds great, in fact the patch I made for myself last night does exactly that.

Thanks for being so considerate of everyone's particular whims and fancies Bones

Yep, no worries.

I guess I could also look into switching the fuel type when CryoEngines is involved. I just don't remember what it does with fuels (since I haven't played with it). For now, ISP switching would be a good start. Also, 360 isn't bad, it's still in the same ballpark as the Poodle in that case.

-----

BTW, Kottabos did a review today, though he didn't install SpaceY Lifters (as a prerequisite), so a bunch of textures didn't show up correctly.

[Whovian]

Wait ... CryoEngines support and automatic detection and switching of fuel modes?

God yes.

[Alexoff]

What about big monoprop tanks?

[AbhChallenger]

Other mods should not play a factor into the balance of SpaceY. They are supposed to be extending the stock balance. Stock fuel is the Magic "LiquidFuel" If you are going to compare it to any real world fuel then you mise well just install the realism mods.

They can be OP compared to the real world as long as they are not OP compared to existing stock KSP parts. (Except for of course part count and the ease to build compared to asparagus, boosters, etc..) They can have an ISP of 800 for all I care. As long as it is balanced so that it does not become the obvious part to use for every situation.

[Sharkman Briton]

This is the most Kerbal mod ever!

[PickledTripod]

Other mods should not play a factor into the balance of SpaceY. They are supposed to be extending the stock balance. Stock fuel is the Magic "LiquidFuel" If you are going to compare it to any real world fuel then you mise well just install the realism mods.

They can be OP compared to the real world as long as they are not OP compared to existing stock KSP parts. (Except for of course part count and the ease to build compared to asparagus, boosters, etc..) They can have an ISP of 800 for all I care. As long as it is balanced so that it does not become the obvious part to use for every situation.

I think it's a good thing if modders coopereate togheter to make sure that their mods are all compatible and balance each other. People like Nertea, RoverDude, Porkjet and NecroBones all make "stockalike" or "stock expension" mods that fit well with the original balance or the game as well as its aesthetics, players will often use their mods together so it's only natural that they would considerate other mods when balancing their own.

[NecroBones]

Yep, I think it's great when mods can cooperate and balance against each other where appropriate.

So here's what I have in the next update so far (though it's not ready yet):

 - Adjusted P-series (Penguin) engines back to 400 ISP by default.
 - Added MM config for Penguin engines to detect CryoEngines and make the following tweaks:
    - Reduces Liquid-Fuel ISP to 360.
    - Adds mode switching, with alternate Liquid-Hydrogen mode, with slightly better ISP but slightly worse thrust.
 - Added a miniscule gimbal range to Penguin engines (previously they were non-vectoring). 

[maculator]

This is just what I wanted. I'm, as always, impressed! The only problem is that the whole Heavy Lifters series forces me to use Jointreinforcement, because otherwise its really wobbly and unflyable. Is there any chance to get stiffer connections without using jointreinforcement? Maybe in a future update, because I concider using Jointreinforcement as cheating but I LOVE the Heavy Lifters, Those + MRS + FueltanksPlus + Lithobrake are all the additional parts I need!

There is also one thing I really would love to see in the HeavyLifters pack or the Lithobrake pack: A cluster of Sepratrons (3 or 5 in a box), radial attached to help kill some velocity.

[komodo]

I have no knowledge of a way to stiffen connections beyond KJR, but for the possibility that, I think, that joint strength is proportional to part mass(?). Do I have that right?

/personal aside: KJR: I don't know why it isn't stock, except for 'lol kerbal noodle rockets!!'. /end personal aside ><