[1.2] Proton-M / Breeze-M

[Kerbal01]

@InsaneDruid not in the most recent release, the old version.

 

[InsaneDruid]

Yeah, the old (1.16) version was wonky in this regard, as romanasul pointed out.

If you hop over to GitHub and look at the history of the relevant file

https://github.com/InsaneDruid/Proton-M/blob/1f7cfabfff0371bbf201a15c36a91cbad0f6c128/GameData/HGA/Proton/mm_config/realism_overhaul/ro_proton_lv_fairings.cfg

you can grab the "RSS Fairing Fix" compatible with the 1.16 of this mod. This should help.

 

[Doroniel]

Have you ever considered creating r-7 rockets?   I'm sure it will be gorgeous

[InsaneDruid]

So many things to model, so little time ^^

[DBowman]

@InsaneDruid Thanks for the fantastic vehicles! I'm using it for this

In researching I learned that the ullage/vernier & RCS feed off a separate high pressure propellant system than the main engines. Some one had back calculated a bunch of flights and figured there must be 200 kg of high and 5000 of low pressure propellant in the core. It looks like they can vary the loading depending on if they need high precision / certainty of the final orbit; like 300+5100 capacity that you can load any way you like (but I don't have real numbers...). From you experience is it possible to configure the parts to model that?

How would you recommend adding a flag / logo to the Briz drop tank? (or indeed other stages). I can pull in edit and save .dds no problem, but I'm a little confused re the alpha I see in you textures. I guess some non textured shading comes from the model and then the texture gets overlaid? is there some way that the models can 'take' a couple of texture layers and composite them before 'application' to the model? Then people could keep any 'decal' style changes separate from your textures, maybe it's just easier to do that in GIMP and keep the 'editing version' with the layers as an 'archive'.

[InsaneDruid]

@DBowman I am currently on a lan (those things still exist^^), I'll come back with a longer answer after the weekend.

Edited November 11, 2016 by InsaneDruid

[InsaneDruid]

The thing with the different propellant system is that KSP has no way (to my knowledge) to assign tank IDs to an engine. You only can restrict fuel flow so that the high pressure tanks would need an (or multiple) separate model(s) to which the RCS/Ullage blocks needed to attach and then some fiddling with crossfeed boundaries. Ugly.

An other option would be to differentiate by propellant for stock, making the RCS/Ullage blocks using monoprop and for RO/real fuels adding a high pressure tank definition to the breeze core and defining the rcs engines to be pressure-fed. Then these will only use the high pressure tank definition. I hope the same goes for non pressure fed engines to not consume from high pressure tanks.

Actually, option sounds very nice and I thank you that you brought my attention to this. I'll try this and if it works it will be in the next update!

 

You mean, if you like to modify the textures? Best way would be to use my psd sources (a bit problematic to share with around 1GB per texture file), but you can edit the dds files, too. The alpha channel of the textures can be interpreted either the transparency (for example the small holes in the back of the stage3) OR it is used to control the specular attributes of the material aka how reflective the material is (the brighter, the more reflective). So when adding a logo I usually use a bit darker (=less reflective) shade in the alpha for this area, so that the sticker material has less reflectivity as the painted surfaces.

Unfortunately, ksp doesn't support the way you describe. The flags on the models (s2 of proton, too) is achieved by having a actual polygon floating above the surface of the model, and the material of it is set to alpha blending, ie supporting full transparent areas with smooth, semi-transparent transitions between op ague and transparent areas. This sounds nice and easy and all fun, but having 2 co-planar surfaces (or nearly co-planar) produces a heavy tendency to so called z-fighting, where the precision of the depth buffer isn't big enough to differentiate between the location of the two surfaces, producing rounding errors that results in the material (or parts of it) that should be in the background (=the actual surface of the model) to be drawn above the decal, resulting in ugly flickering and black spots.

That's the reason I used the way I used to achieve changeable logos on the fairing.

[DBowman]

thanks @InsaneDruid !

3 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

So when adding a logo I usually use a bit darker (=less reflective) shade in the alpha for this area

ah alpha to encode specular - is more transparent = more shiny or the reverse?

3 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

z-fighting

I figured this would be a problem, that's why I was hoping the models could do some kind of 'texture compositing'. I'll try adding something to the Briz and see how it turns out - I expect the trade off is that if the texture is high rez enough for a detailed logo then it's over kill for the tank, but if it's tuned for the tank then it's only good for low res logos. I'll check out how you did the fairings - realistically I guess that's the place logs would go - the vacuum stages would have no one to see them.

 

Do you do the RO configs? they seemed to come as part of the mod. I've found various slightly different specs for Briz and it's engines, it would good to have urls for data sources in the .cfg. Oh also what does the decouple on the Briz APT do? as far as I can tell it just shakes the craft, I might have once mounted the engine very deep/shallow and decoupled it - is it a 'decouple from lower stacked node'?

Thanks for the good work - the Proton launch pad is awesome.

[InsaneDruid]

Yes, white="shiny", black="dull"

Yes I do the configs. Sources are Encyclopedia Astronautica, russianspaceweb, sometimes some russian books, like for the upcoming TKS/VA, sometimes i have to use wiki (though i try ti verify it by the given sources, or by calculations) and the proton mission planners guide from ILS. The latter has mostly rounded data, sometimes, not. And jes, sources differ a bit. 17D58E for example. ISP 247 or 270 etc. I tried to use the ones found in the most and more trustworthy sources. And some data are calculations in excel based on different data. I have a spreadsheet with the data of the tanks, engines, etc. For example fuel is often only stated as total fuel, but the fuel/oxidizer rations for the engines are known (on paper at least) and combined with the different densities of UDMH and NTO i calculated them.

Yes, The decoupler on the APT decouples breeze and the payload from the fairing base. The decoupler on the core decouples the APT, and the one in the PLA the payload.

Thanks!

 

PS: had some test runs, but unfortunately real fuels isnt ready for 1.2.1 and the current version of the mod has some differences to the old version). But there might be some problems with two tank module definition per part. Probably i decouple the high pressure tanks from the code model. We'll see.

[DBowman]

3 minutes ago, InsaneDruid said:

Yes I do the configs

monster task - I saw some guy using regression analysis from multiple launches trying to back compute the different propellant loads - it'be nice if the manufacturer just published them. in case it's useful here are a couple I had: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/East_Europe_2/Proton-M/Gallery/Breeze.htm http://kbhmisaeva.ru/main.php?id=52

 

[Brainpop14]

What's the difference between a Proton-K and a Proton-M? I can't tell.

[InsaneDruid]

To my knowledge:

Proton-M over K:
Changed flight control system (located in the upper compartment of s3), the new one was more capable and smaller so the small bulges around the perimeter of that upper compartment went away. The RD-253 was upgraded to the RD-276 specs and finally the Breeze-M was introduced as a new upper stage (though the M can fly with "ye olde" Block-DM). So visually: the new upper stage, if used and the absence of the small bulges.

So, the changes are more spec wise and internally than externally visible thigns. Then, a Proton-M isn't a Proton-M, too (it had several phases of upgrades already).

First phase upgrade:
The helium tanks on the Breeze-M are different, they removed one (so actually the current Breeze droptank represents an older one), the amount of fuel is a bit different in the Breeze (less) and Proton (more, thanks to cooled propellants), software changes on the Breeze, different main engine in the Breeze.
So visually: just the one less helium tank.

Second phase upgrade:
Upgraded engines on the first and second stage, thinner tank walls, use of composite structures on the s2 (the skin now actually has the visually more interesting riveted aluminium bump-map), and also the use of unpainted versions of the Proton-M to maximize payload capacity. Breeze has less pressure tanks (2 instead of 6 actually represented in the current model) in her upper inner compartment, moved avionics compartment to rebalance her. The 11d458 are spec improved.
So visually: the bump-map on the aft compartment of the s2, the amount of pressure tanks on the Breeze, and maybe an unpainted version.

Third phase upgrade:
Didn't change the design to my knowledge.

The most recent phase IV incorporated material changes and telemetry system upgrades, so not much visual change.

Summa summarum: the bulges, the amount of pressure tanks in the breeze, a material change only visible in the bump-map, and the upper stage.

[Kerbal01]

Cooled prop in Proton M? I Wasn't aware you could chill hydrazine/nto 

[InsaneDruid]

Of course not cryo-chilled and not into temp ranges that would lead to thickening and thus clogging of the fuel lines (breeze tanks are insulated against this). ^^

[Brainpop14]

I'm having a problem. The Proton first stage engines are providing absolutely no thrust

[InsaneDruid]

Just to exclude the possibility (so sorry if this ready like "have you plugged your computer to the mains?" ) : have you fueled the rocket on the pad (or in the VAB)? The craft files have empty tanks on the launch vehicle, just the breeze is already tanked - like in reality. Use the generator in the launchpad to fuel it on the pad (like in reality) or set the fuel levels in the VAB.

If this wasn't the problem, please shortly describe the circumstances. Stock KSP, KSP + Realfuels or Realism overhaul?

[Brainpop14]

Stock KSP with RealPlume. There was fuel in all the tanks. I was trying to launch and the engines ignited and I could hear them but they produced absolutely no thrust.

 

I also did an engine test with Infinite fuel on and this engine can't even lift itself!

Edited January 28, 2017 by Brainpop14

[InsaneDruid]

That images (?) aren't working.

I verified the mod with a new fresh test-install with realplume. Engines are working, all saved crafts (Proton Light, Medium and M are working. What mods do you have installed besides the Proton and Realplume? Can you link a screenshot of your gamedata?

 

[gstomp]

I believe the thrust problems are due to the part upgrade configs - iirc, the thrust is correct, but the mass upgrade is wrong, and results in each engine weighing a ridiculous amount, so TWR -> 0.

Part upgrades need to be enabled in difficulty settings for sandbox mode.

Edited January 28, 2017 by gstomp

[InsaneDruid]

Ahh, thanks! I'll try to recreate.

EDIT: A fix will available today on GitHub and for CKAN/SpaceDock in the next release. For now, go to Settings->Difficulty Settings->Advanced and disable "All Part upgrades applied in sandbox"

Edited January 28, 2017 by InsaneDruid

[StoryMusgrave]

Yep, that part upgrade is increasing the mass to 1950t, not 1.950t.

[InsaneDruid]

Fixed on GitHub

[StoryMusgrave]

I've got to test one thing, but one set of documentation says that mass is additive. So if original mass is 1.847 and part upgrade says mass = 1.95 then mass is really 1.847+1.95...or 3.797

I'm testing....

And as currently written. This is true...So... another little change is needed to be 'mass = 0.103' instead of 'mass = 1.95'.

I'd also change the 'IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = true' to 'IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = false'

[Brainpop14]

I think I found the problem. I checked the upgraded stats, and here's what I found. The mass doesn't seem right.

Only problem is, I don't know how to fix this.

And I need the Full Upgraded Stats with sandbox. I also use SSTU and without that feature on it's pretty much useless.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Brainpop14

[StoryMusgrave]

Once again, your pictures are not working.

2 minutes ago, Brainpop14 said:

I think I found the problem. I checked the upgraded stats, and here's what I found.

And I need the Full Upgraded Stats with sandbox. I also use SSTU and without that feature on it's pretty much useless.