Does anyone else feel dirty when using Mobile Research Labs?

[More Boosters]

The title.

I mean, sure, not time warping works too, but even then the current iteration feels rather overpowered and bland with how you need to do the same science thing over and over again and check periodically; it's also a massive clickfest.

I'm not sure how I would fix it but right now it's not something I want to use. (So I don't use it, don't waste a post telling me to do that)

How do you feel?

[EladDv]

for once i agree. especially in stock career the science lab is too powerful and the entire science aspect of the game is too easy and too grindy

[nothingSpecial]

I feel dirty when not using it because my every career save crashes and it's useless in sandbox.

[timsfitz]

I like it. Finally gives a little purpose to bases and stations.

[cantab]

Well I have Life Support, and I did put a fair amount of work into getting my Mun station up and running, so I don't feel "dirty". But I do think the lab is maybe a bit overpowered. Now I've put in that work I expect another thousand science without lifting a finger, and then I can stock up more data with a routine Mun landing. Then again I'm pretty experienced at KSP to consider said landing, followed by a rendezvous and docking with the station in its inclined orbit, 'routine'.

[Terwin]

I consider it a highly efficient container for multiple surface samples/materials experiments/goo tests.

I used it much the same in 0.90, I just get a couple dozen bonus science points over and above the storage aspect(a few dozen over lots of missions, usually less than 10 points per mission).

By the time I actually use it for more than storage, I have already unlocked all of the stock parts.

Then again, I have never just filled up a station and time-warped to get science either, any research I do is during transit, and it is a good excuse to send a second scientist along.

(in my only 1.0 game where I am transiting to other planets, I filled out the stock tech tree with Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus before doing more than quick visits to the Kerbol SOI for XP, usually with multiple trips in progress at a time, so time-warping was minimal, lab science was just a small percentage of the science returned, and half the time I forgot to start researching/never bothered to full up the lab with data)

[kStrout]

I never feel that way, I usually use TAC life support which balances any grind because your science stations can only exist for so long before they need resupply, but I still have a warm fuzzy feeling whenever I fill it up with tons of data.

[moogoob]

In my recent career save, I got over a thousand science from just one return trip to Minmus, not counting what the Explore contract paid.

I have no need to increase that even higher through lab usage, so I only use them for completeness (IE role play) in my stations.

EDIT: Ever since scientists got to reset goo canisters, biome-hopping for mucho science has become incredibly easy. That aforementioned trip only hit three biomes, but had five goo readings (space high, space low, greater flats, lowlands and midlands) without having to bring five canisters along. I only left as I was getting short on fuel. Thanks Bob!

Edited September 16, 2015 by moogoob

[Val]

If the Science Lab had a consumable resource that need refilling constantly, is one way it could be balanced. But that also has the consequence of potentially requiring grindy/repetitive "refuel" missions to keep it going. Not sure what I would prefer.

Any other suggestions?

[KerikBalm]

I barely use them. I only kept them manned and operational during the biome harvesting trips.

I rotated my crews out, and didn't time warp except for the kerbin-> moon transfters.

I don't think I had them running for more than 30 days.

Include them in my surface habs and transfer vessels for interplanetary missions - Basically as a placeholder for life support equipment.

I'm also running the lab on my duna transfer vehicle, with experiments I got from solar orbit (I should have loaded it up with data before departing LKO, or even started loading data from the launchpad and ascent), on its way to Duna. I figure it will give the kerbonauts something to "occupy their time"

All techs are unlocked and I have millions in funds at this point anyway.

Now they should just allow me to self finance missions.

At 100% commitment to patents licensing, 103.783 funds per unit of science means that when it produces 2,500 science, that is 259,460 funds.

With the science multipliers on Duna + biome hopping, I should be able to get thousands in science, and thus millions of funds.

(of course, the economics of this strategy are even better with the transmitted and recovered science)

I plan on using them to liberate myself from the mess of contracts.

I just haven't decided if I want to do 100% commitment, or if I want to also build up a reserve of science points in case a future update adds new tech nodes (like LANTR engines or the Nuclear Lightbulb from Porkjet) - if I want to use it to push up rep as well.

My career mode has been very busy with short time warps and a high launch rate. Now the crews are all trained, Mun and Minmus all science mined and ISRU mined (well, there's still some stuf to get on Mun... but meh I don't care), and some interplanetary missions are nearing their destination (first Duna probe landed last night, the manned mission is halfway there), I've got two asteroid redirects underway, but now my time warps are getting longer... >15 days at a time.

Now with long time warps and a stable of lvl 3 scientists, their cumulative output may be attractive...

But again... at this point, I'm done with the grind, and it might as well be sandbox with funding limitations.

Mobile labs will provide the funding for any mission I decide to do, rather than some random and often ridiculous contract (no, I don't want to launch a station with space for even more kerbals into solar orbit, no I don't want a station there at all - last time I just flew a SSTO with a crew cabin just past kerbin's SOI, waited 10 seconds, and burned back to kerbin)

- - - Updated - - -

If the Science Lab had a consumable resource that need refilling constantly, is one way it could be balanced. But that also has the consequence of potentially requiring grindy/repetitive "refuel" missions to keep it going. Not sure what I would prefer.

Any other suggestions?

Well, it does, it consumes "data", you need to keep feeding it experiments it hasn't seen before, or it stops working

[Superfluous J]

I actually feel bad for having never used it. I'm not even 100% sure the mechanics of it. It's one of the very very few stock parts I can actually say that about. In fact, the only other part I can think of in the same category is the asteroid telescope, and that's not even stock (yet).

[Randazzo]

I like that it actually serves a purpose to have a mobile lab at a station or base now, but I get that it has broken it's previous use for biome-hopping mission vehicles and some people miss that.

While they aren't necessary to finish off the tech tree under normal settings, they add a mechanic I enjoy. Having research stations over the Mun and Minmus gives me a reason to design and build reusable crew shuttles, and gives me a reason to send multiple missions to the surface of each. Later on they can be used as a funds generator once you get around to the point of selling your science off.

[Varsi]

I liked when we needed mobile lab to reset experiments. I considered that to be a lot better purpose for it than free science.

[mikegarrison]

The science lab is so much LESS of a "grindy clickfest" than biome hopping that I don't understand why some people complain about it. I think it is a huge improvement over what we used to have. It actually gives a reason for kerbals to spend some time in space.

When you look at it carefully, the complaints about the science lab are all really complaints about the infinitely low difficulty of keeping kerbals in space for an infinitely long time. In other words, they are complaints about the lack of a life support requirement.

Edited September 16, 2015 by mikegarrison

[Kerbart]

for once i agree. especially in stock career the science lab is too powerful and the entire science aspect of the game is too easy and too grindy

I agree that science is too easy and grindy, but the lab helps to get over the grindy part. By the time you're done with landing on Mun and Minmus you should have the technology to have science stations and bases. Coincidentally your mission duration goes from days to months. That works just fine for me as doing the same mission over and over again but in different biomes is getting really, really old.

[Johnny Wishbone]

If the Science Lab had a consumable resource that need refilling constantly, is one way it could be balanced. But that also has the consequence of potentially requiring grindy/repetitive "refuel" missions to keep it going. Not sure what I would prefer.

Any other suggestions?

It does: electricity. Unfortunately, electricity is easily replenished by a couple big solar arrays and a few minutes in direct sunlight (shouldn't it be Kerbolight?).

My suggestion: make the MPL require so much electricity to operate that even the big solar arrays aren't enough to keep it running for any period of time, or require the MPL to only be able to use fuel cells for power (no solar arrays). To balance that out, tweak the fuel cells and fuel cell arrays to be much bigger and heavier physically, but allow them to generate enough electricity to help keep the MPL running for a decent amount of time. And in order to use the fuel cells, you need.....fuel, which would require refueling missions. That way, you get the rough equivalent of a "life support" resource without killing your Kerbals. Want to load up your MPL with science and then time-warp? Fine, but you'll run out of fuel for your cells and the MPL will just shutdown and the Kerbals will just waste that time looking out the window.

That's my 2 cents.

[cantab]

The Science Lab though works with "grindy" biome hopping, not against it. While it can be worthwhile to take a lab on a single landing, that pales in comparison to the stack of science you can get if you run repeated landings on the same body. Heck, that's why I put my science station in Munar orbit instead of somewhere else.

[Joonatan1998]

In general I think the science system requires some rework.

Depending on your difficulty setting, it is either completely trivial or extremely grindy.

To reduce the need for biome hopping exploring a new body should have much (5-8x?) higher science returns than exploring more biomes on the same object. (the total science would be the same.)

I think the labs are a poorly thought out, grindy and unfun mechanic, and usually don't use them, but don't have any good ideas to make them better.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Joonatan1998

[regex]

I like that it reduces the need for biome hopping so I can get around to making great missions that I acually want to do.

[klesh]

I use it solely for looks on stations. Science is too easy to come by for it to be used for it's intended purpose.

[Terwin]

Now they should just allow me to self finance missions.

At 100% commitment to patents licensing, 103.783 funds per unit of science means that when it produces 2,500 science, that is 259,460 funds.

With the science multipliers on Duna + biome hopping, I should be able to get thousands in science, and thus millions of funds.

(of course, the economics of this strategy are even better with the transmitted and recovered science)

I plan on using them to liberate myself from the mess of contracts.

I just haven't decided if I want to do 100% commitment, or if I want to also build up a reserve of science points in case a future update adds new tech nodes (like LANTR engines or the Nuclear Lightbulb from Porkjet) - if I want to use it to push up rep as well.

My career mode has been very busy with short time warps and a high launch rate. Now the crews are all trained, Mun and Minmus all science mined and ISRU mined (well, there's still some stuf to get on Mun... but meh I don't care), and some interplanetary missions are nearing their destination (first Duna probe landed last night, the manned mission is halfway there), I've got two asteroid redirects underway, but now my time warps are getting longer... >15 days at a time.

Now with long time warps and a stable of lvl 3 scientists, their cumulative output may be attractive...

But again... at this point, I'm done with the grind, and it might as well be sandbox with funding limitations.

Mobile labs will provide the funding for any mission I decide to do, rather than some random and often ridiculous contract (no, I don't want to launch a station with space for even more kerbals into solar orbit, no I don't want a station there at all - last time I just flew a SSTO with a crew cabin just past kerbin's SOI, waited 10 seconds, and burned back to kerbin)

For 'self-funding' I decide on an interesting mission and let the contracts add a few funding steps.

Example: I recently launched an outer-planets grand tour vehicle(with ISRU, cost ~ a million funds)

Contracts: Mine ore on Mun, Mine ore on Minmus, Rescue(Duna orbit), Rescue(Ike orbit)

This means that even without any science or recovery this mission is profitable. (of course the original plan was to land on Minmus for fuel then go straight to Dres, but rescues were on Duna, so heading there too)

Of course even with the Community science tree, I do not expect I'll use any of the science from that mission for anything but reputation, but it still has a couple 4-star scientists and the lab was filled with launchpad, kerbin, munar, and minmus data(I added the community tech tree to have more nodes to research, but I am only about 18K science from finishing that as well, and my inner-planets grand tour has already launched from Moho for a kerbin-return trip, so all that Gilly, eve-orbit, and moho science will probably finish it off, and as I already have 60M funds I have little no need to use it for that)

[Xacktar]

I tend to use them as emergency science buffers.

You know when you are just 5-10 points shy of a new unlock and you really want the part it unlocks before you do the next mission? that's when I go find where I put a lab and get the science from it.

Most of the time, I forget I have them. XD

[KerikBalm]

I wish it still had its transmission boost function.

Back in .21 when it came out, I thought bringing something to it would be as good as brining it back to kerbin.... would be nice if that was the case.

But... that's maybe a little too OP'd? I don't know... its also a recipe to send kerbals on 1 way missions into Jool's atmosphere

I think when you process something in the lab, it should basically "duplicate" that experiment and transmit it at a higher fraction.

If it normally transmits for 50% and recovers for 100%-> with the lab it transmits at 75% ((50+100)/2), and you still have the origintal to return for 100% of the remaining 25%.

If it normally transmits at 35% and recovers for 70% --> with the lab it transmits at )70+35)/2 = 52.5%, and you still have the origintal to return for 70% of the remaining 47.5%.

^ I hope that makes sense.

That is how I would design the lab to work, if I were in charge.

[cantab]

I tend to use them as emergency science buffers.

You know when you are just 5-10 points shy of a new unlock and you really want the part it unlocks before you do the next mission? that's when I go find where I put a lab and get the science from it.

Most of the time, I forget I have them. XD

Heh, when I have that problem I just take my "Thrust SuperScienceCar" out and drive it up to one of the KSC buildings. Four Mat bays, four Goo, the science the Kerbal can get, plus whatever other instruments I have.

[chrisb2e9]

I edit my save game when i run out of funds and dont feel like grinding more missions to get funds the "right" way. So do i feel like its cheating from time warping to get easy science? nope...