[Min KSP: 1.12.2] Deep Space Exploration Vessels - Build NASA Inspired Ships In KSP

Gordon Dry · May 25, 2016

One more, if changing the description of the Supernova add the information that FusionPellets are always used as long as the engine is active, no matter if it thrusts or not.

Gordon Dry · May 25, 2016

What is about this?

Is there a coincidence?

Anywhere I found this quote that I placed in an info.txt for the IR mod, I just wonder:

Spoiler

Quote

Got it! it was a conflict with Wild Blue Industries Modcategorizer mod. May be you must specify that in the OP. thanks!

Edited May 25, 2016 by Gordon Dry

Angelo Kerman · May 26, 2016

Yeah the ModCategorizer isn't working at present. Use the one in WildBlueTools.

Gordon Dry · May 26, 2016

5 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

Yeah the ModCategorizer isn't working at present. Use the one in WildBlueTools.

I didn't use it, I just wondered.

btw, which "units" of LqdHydrogen is the Supernova using? Kilograms or liters?

Because this is another issue with the description, normally LqdHydrogen is not a case of boil off but from the more than 30,000 m/s I got a huge amount is gone while I was away...
I had 22 maneuver nodes pre-programmed to upper apogee and circularize in steps of maximum 5 minute burns to not overheat the Supernova, but it stopped at node 18.
Each of the nodes had ~300 m/s so there really is a lack of LqdHydrogen anywhere.

I checked the TANK_DEFINITION in RealTankTypes.cfg of Real Fuels, but no loss_rate for LqdHydrogen there...

So there is only the idea that the fuel flow is much higher as I commented out the

Spoiler


//	MODULE
//	{
//	    name = SupernovaController
//	    primaryEngineID = Hydrogen
//	    reactorFuel = FusionPellets
//	    fuelConsumption = 0.01
//	    ecNeededToStart = 48000
//	    ecChargePerSec = 800
//	    upgradeResources = RocketParts,5000;Science,600
//	}

to avoid the NRE issue ... I see that the reactor is no more using FuelPellets without that module - is the factor 0.01 also to be taken into account for the LqdHydrogen use then?
But what ever, the shown dV is a fact and it seems that I lost LqdHydrogen, so it seems there must be kinda boiloff... I have also to check other places, I guess...

:mellow:

It seems it's better to wait for a fix of the NRE instead of fiddling around with that module ...

Edited May 27, 2016 by Gordon Dry

Gordon Dry · May 27, 2016

How much cooling in KW is needed for the Supernova when I use other radiators than the ones you provided?

I only find the info that the Supernova increases part temp at a rate of 5 K/s for LqdHydrogen mode and 7 K/s for FusionPellets mode ...

Gordon Dry · May 27, 2016

Could you please add the possibility to fine tune the dumping speed of the coolant by slider?

Angelo Kerman · May 27, 2016

Get 1.1.6 here.

- Fixed Half Hex Truss support for CLS.
- Fixed NREs and Input is NULL errors.
- Updated Supernova description.
- Supernova's part catalog description now lists the ElectricCharge needed to start the engine, and FusionPellets consumed when idle/running.
- Buffed the Supernova's pulsed plasma mode ISP.
- Removed debug button from the Supernova; Charge Capacitor and Debug Reset are now context menu buttons.
- Defaulted the above debug buttons to false (you won't see them normally).

17 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

<snip>

btw, which "units" of LqdHydrogen is the Supernova using? Kilograms or liters?

<snip>

All units are in liters. DSEV doesn't have any LqdHydrogen boil-off code in it, you probably have another mod installed that does.

16 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

How much cooling in KW is needed for the Supernova when I use other radiators than the ones you provided?

I only find the info that the Supernova increases part temp at a rate of 5 K/s for LqdHydrogen mode and 7 K/s for FusionPellets mode ...

Depends upon how you build your craft. The NASA Discovery II reference design uses 10 of the large radiators.

10 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

Could you please add the possibility to fine tune the dumping speed of the coolant by slider?

You can change the dump speed in the config file.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Angel-125

rasta013 · May 27, 2016

21 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

Because this is another issue with the description, normally LqdHydrogen is not a case of boil off but from the more than 30,000 m/s I got a huge amount is gone while I was away...

LqdHydrogen is an NFT managed resource that is part of the CRP. As of a few versions ago (maybe 2 or 3) LH₂Ox or simple LH₂ will have the hydrogen portion of the fuel boil off if not stored in the correct type of cryogenic containers. This is defined in the CRP under its specific heat/heat of vaporization properties. For now, there are several mods that add in 100% cryo storage tanks through the use of EC consumption based on resource total. I know that Cryogenic Tanks are 100% cryo tanks and I think SSTU tanks are now 100% also (haven't tested this one though) and there are a few more iirc. You can see in the VAB/SPH windows for any tank that stores LH₂what the rate of boil off will be. This was done to bring the power of LH₂ driven engines under control as it was becoming needless to actually worry about ever using anything else.

@Angel-125 With this in mind I might suggest you look at Nertea's Cryo Tanks and consider if you want to implement some sort of non-boil off code for one the part switches you have on the DSEV tanks. To make it work properly the tank would need to consume EC, add weight for the extra cooling mechanisms and also reduce the total fuel quantity that can be stored.

Edited May 27, 2016 by rasta013

Angelo Kerman · May 27, 2016

1 hour ago, rasta013 said:

LqdHydrogen is an NFT managed resource that is part of the CRP. As of a few versions ago (maybe 2 or 3) LH₂Ox or simple LH₂ will have the hydrogen portion of the fuel boil off if not stored in the correct type of cryogenic containers. This is defined in the CRP under its specific heat/heat of vaporization properties. For now, there are several mods that add in 100% cryo storage tanks through the use of EC consumption based on resource total. I know that Cryogenic Tanks are 100% cryo tanks and I think SSTU tanks are now 100% also (haven't tested this one though) and there are a few more iirc. You can see in the VAB/SPH windows for any tank that stores LH₂what the rate of boil off will be. This was done to bring the power of LH₂ driven engines under control as it was becoming needless to actually worry about ever using anything else.

@Angel-125 With this in mind I might suggest you look at Nertea's Cryo Tanks and consider if you want to implement some sort of non-boil off code for one the part switches you have on the DSEV tanks. To make it work properly the tank would need to consume EC, add weight for the extra cooling mechanisms and also reduce the total fuel quantity that can be stored.

In can do that, can you point me to a config that has whatever part module is used to prevent boil-off?

Gordon Dry · May 28, 2016

Conclusion:

- simplest piece of code I know of to stop boil-off (I use that as zNoBoiloff but it still does ...):

@TANK_DEFINITION[*]:FINAL
{
	@TANK[*],*
	{
		@loss_rate = 0
	}
}

- MM is already 2.6.25

- The Supernova needs auto-shutdown, when running unattended over two dozens of maneuvers that are short enough it doesn't overheat but the time between the maneuvers is getting longer and longer, the hydrogen is boiled off (in cryogenic procedural tanks!?) and the fusion pellets eat up themselves for nothing. Also the warming-up phase should be taken into account for the time of maneuver burn start somehow...
( You should accept that not all players like the "I do all manual" thinking - IRL there is nobody steering a rocket with keyboard and mouse by eyeball - and no joystick as well! So I want to program the autopilot and go to the supermarket, cook, eat, sleep, etc. pp. )

- I'm still missing the information of how much graphene radiators totally are needed to let the Supernova never overheat. Four of them plus 4 x 1440 kW + 4 x 128 kW are not enough...

Edit: As I clicked on "Like this" I got a popup "You're not allowed to give reputation to this user" ... ? Then I clicked again and unliked - so it was liked whatsoever the popup said ... So I had to like again and it worked this time - I said it before, this board software is as buggy as KSP itself.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gordon Dry

rasta013 · May 28, 2016

46 minutes ago, Gordon Dry said:

- simplest piece of code I know of to stop boil-off (I use that as zNoBoiloff but it still does ...):

Yeah that won't work. You'd have to use something like what is listed below and and be running Cryogenic Tanks to call it if you wanted to use it. If you have either Cryo Tanks or Kerbal Atomics installed you already have it. Additionally, it would be either of these two mods which are causing your boil off. The patch that kicks that bit into effect from the CRP comes from either one/both.

3 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

In can do that, can you point me to a config that has whatever part module is used to prevent boil-off?

This is the bit that Nertea is using - obviously calling his on internal module from the plugin but it may give you direction to go off of...

Spoiler

   MODULE
   {
       name = ModuleCryoTank
       FuelName = LqdHydrogen
       // in % per hour
       BoiloffRate = 0.05
       // in Ec per 1000 units per second
       CoolingCost = 0.08
   }

And a link to his code base for the plug in...The license is CC-NC-SA 4.0 and from what I've seen Nert's more than happy to help get people pointed in the right direction if needs be.

Gordon Dry · May 28, 2016

Interesting, why does it affect Procedural Parts tanks that are set to be cryogenic at all?

rasta013 · May 28, 2016

2 minutes ago, Gordon Dry said:

Interesting, why does it affect Procedural Parts tanks that are set to be cryogenic at all?

Because the patch adds the boil off code to everything - stock and mod tanks. The only ones that don't get affected would be seriously customized tanks like ones from SSTU. But then, SSTU doesn't actually have a config file that labels it as a tank instead opting for a completely customizable container that happens to generally hold fuel 99.9% of the time.

Nertea · May 28, 2016

6 hours ago, rasta013 said:

LqdHydrogen is an NFT managed resource that is part of the CRP. As of a few versions ago (maybe 2 or 3) LH₂Ox or simple LH₂ will have the hydrogen portion of the fuel boil off if not stored in the correct type of cryogenic containers. This is defined in the CRP under its specific heat/heat of vaporization properties. For now, there are several mods that add in 100% cryo storage tanks through the use of EC consumption based on resource total. I know that Cryogenic Tanks are 100% cryo tanks and I think SSTU tanks are now 100% also (haven't tested this one though) and there are a few more iirc. You can see in the VAB/SPH windows for any tank that stores LH₂what the rate of boil off will be. This was done to bring the power of LH₂ driven engines under control as it was becoming needless to actually worry about ever using anything else.

@Angel-125 With this in mind I might suggest you look at Nertea's Cryo Tanks and consider if you want to implement some sort of non-boil off code for one the part switches you have on the DSEV tanks. To make it work properly the tank would need to consume EC, add weight for the extra cooling mechanisms and also reduce the total fuel quantity that can be stored.

Hey just so you know, this isn't strictly correct. I implement boiloff myself in CryoTanks - it's not related to CRP at all.

Gordon Dry · May 28, 2016

I got new NRE spamming:

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at Part.requestResource (.Part origin, Int32 resourceID, ResourceFlowMode flowMode, Double demand, Int32 requestID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part.RequestResource (System.String resourceName, Double demand, ResourceFlowMode flowMode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at WildBlueIndustries.WBIHeatRadiator.UpdateState () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at WildBlueIndustries.FixedUpdateHelper.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z7bp1at7r637epv/2016-05-28-1%20DSEV%20NRE%20spam%20WBIHeatRadiator.7z?dl=0

Edit:

btw this was in VAB, now I launched, nothing so far, will see what happens as soon as I deploy the radiators and start the Supernova...

I will update the logs in the 7z then, same link

Edit:

updated log.

Something new, I changed the coolantDumpRate of the large radiator from 66.67 to 0.6667 but ingame the dump speed looks exactly the same as before.

Edit:

btw I got a total of 20 of the large radiators, 4 directly at the Supernova, 6 at the radial tanks nearby back end, 6 more front end, 4 at a reactor further away that is still off.

It seems that the radiators collect the heat until they're full and have to be cooled down by dumping the coolant, they don't radiate any heat by themselves...

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gordon Dry

Gordon Dry · May 28, 2016

How about this suggestion - perhaps it's too much but who knows? If you feel overwhelmed then I apologize in advance :cool:

A new toggle button in the context menu of the Supernova - when enabled, the Thrust Limiter is not only manually controllable by the player but also adjusts dynamically when the overheating begins, decreasing in 5% steps until the temperature increase stops, waiting until the temperature is under the overheating range and then increases slightly in 0.5% steps until the temperature stays the same.
I don't know if the Thrust Limiter slider can be altered by a mod while it stays fully controllable by the player.
If not, when this feature is toggled on the slider is not controllable by the player.
And if that is possible, the color of the slider could be changed to yellow when the control is set to the algorithm.

Also a message could be placed to the stock message system on the main button bar to remind the player what happened ...

rasta013 · May 28, 2016

9 hours ago, Nertea said:

Hey just so you know, this isn't strictly correct. I implement boiloff myself in CryoTanks - it's not related to CRP at all.

Thanks Nertea! I should have gone back and clarified that once I double checked the CryoTanks code to see how you were doing it.

Chippy the Space Dog · May 30, 2016

Firstly @Angel-125 your mods are frickin' awesome! And I really enjoyed your Duna mission series too. You should link it in your sig!

On a slightly less upbeat note, I think there's a bug in the Hex Truss (Quarter) piece. When you switch it to Fuel tank config it spams the info applet and configs itself to 100's of iterations of green bars offering 123456/202.5 liquid fuel. After that right click is no longer functional in the VAB.

Chippy the Space Dog · May 30, 2016

Also, I think there's an issue with the Titan control unit and Remote Tech. Remote Tech seems to be treating it as a piloted vehicle. The flight computer doesn't function with it, instead declaring 'Local Control'.

Chippy the Space Dog · May 31, 2016

Good-ish news re the Titan control unit. Other folks in Remote Tech are having the same problem with other mod probe cores, so it seems to be an issue on the RT side.

Those poor guys. That thread is no joy to look at. Hope they don't get too demotivated.

The Hex Trusses worked okay when I moved them. Strange. Whatever the problem with the menu is, it seems to be related to where you attach the part. Where I had them, they were spanning two different parts. Anyway, they seem fine where I have them now.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Chippy the Space Dog
typo

Gordon Dry · May 31, 2016

Tiny issue with the Supernova.

After a maneuver burn is done, a short exhaust burst comes out of the nozzle and the engine sound continues until the next maneuver starts.

It finally stops playing the sound when all maneuver nodes are done.

Gordon Dry · June 3, 2016

As before you fixed this I used the workaround mentioned above in disabling the module, so I didn't see there is already an engine management to avoid overheating.
So thank you for already having this built in

But another suggestion:
A toggle button and timeout slider after how many minutes of idling the engine should be shut down to spare FusionPellets.
Perhaps in the range from 5 minutes up to 120 minutes in 5-minute-steps.
Of course a minimum of 0 would also work but that would mean that the engine is always shut down after each burn and that would be too much I guess...

Edited June 3, 2016 by Gordon Dry

Gordon Dry · June 3, 2016

When I open the cooling with RemoteTech it happens immediately and is also delay-scheduled in RemoteTech Flight Computer.

Angelo Kerman · June 22, 2016

DSEV 1.1.7 is available.

Get the latest here.

- Updated to KSP 1.1.3
- Updated to the latest Community Resource Pack.

Bombaatu · June 23, 2016

I grabbed the latest version of this but KSP-AVC still reports it is for version 1.1.2. This was a manual install with no other mods but KSP-AVC.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Bombaatu

[Min KSP: 1.12.2] Deep Space Exploration Vessels - Build NASA Inspired Ships In KSP

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