Is this alternate solar system possible?

[fredinno]

15 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

The earliest I could possibly get US2 is my 16th birthday in April, but even then I don't know if my computer can handle it, I'll try, but I don't know:/ It looks like I have most of the specs, but I have no clue on how it'd run.

 I know how you feel. In the meantime, this should make the rouge planets easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_planet_types#Descriptions_and_tables

[Spaceception]

6 minutes ago, fredinno said:

 I know how you feel. In the meantime, this should make the rouge planets easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_planet_types#Descriptions_and_tables

What do you think about my Moons for you and Silver?

[fredinno]

What? You didn't make any 

[Spaceception]

2 hours ago, Spaceception said:

@fredinno

Ok, no problem:)

I have a moon idea for your planet,
Mustafar:

.1x Earths mass

Mustafar is a medium sized moon closely orbiting Fredinnus just within it's Roche limit, making the moon extremely volcanically active, it has a thick atmosphere from all of it's volcanoes (1.2 atm) made up of CO2, CH4, S, and H2SO4. Due to it's close orbit, it's expected to break apart to form a ring system in (I don't know) years. Because it's so volcanically active (More so than Io), no impact craters are visible, and it has a weak magnetic field (20% of Earths), it's average temperature is 2 c.    ? g

And Silverstrivlers,

Loki:

.0031 moons mass

Loki is a small moon, a little over 2x the mass of ceres, and 3x the radii (Making it 200km wider than Pluto), and almost 100% ammonia ice, because of it's small orbit (1/3 the Earth moon system) It's extremely cold (-220 c), however, it does have ammonia cryovolcanoes, suggesting that there's small underground lakes of ammonia, and perhaps exotic life.

? g

I also want to re-name the moon for Chris "Azeroth" to "Anemoi" if you're (Or he) is putting it in.

 

 Yes I did:) @fredinno

Edited January 18, 2016 by Spaceception

[Spaceception]

11 minutes ago, fredinno said:

What? You didn't make any 

Yes I did ^^^^^ 

[ChrisSpace]

2 hours ago, fredinno said:

I would disagree. We are already making Mars a freezing planet covered by ice and Canada-like land, you might as well go the full way to nuclear winter level. Of course though, the people on this forum have questioned the validity of nuclear winter, and the current timescales suggest collapse 11000 years ago, so it would currently be the same temperature as it would otherwise be. https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080403190745AAbnC9U The REAL impact is nuclear fallout, which is still abnormally high, and leaves parts uninhabitable, dispite the time since. Civilization has collasped into an agrigan society. The nonrenewable resources on Mars are largely depleted after the Atlantians used them up, and they colonized Bellona. However, these bases were small, and collasped after the Atlantians died, as they placed little value to expansion into space. 

So, let me get this straight: Aliens on Mars colonized Bellona, then had their own little Fallout, then the survivors formed into small low-tech societies scattered across the planet, while the Bellonan Martians (or Martian Bellonans, I'm not sure what the correct term is) basically died out?

[fredinno]

2 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

So, let me get this straight: Aliens on Mars colonized Bellona, then had their own little Fallout, then the survivors formed into small low-tech societies scattered across the planet, while the Bellonan Martians (or Martian Bellonans, I'm not sure what the correct term is) basically died out?

The Bellonians were something like 60-100 people, too few to survive in the long term. Before the Apocolyspe, they made monoliths on Phobo-Deimos to store everything they knew, in the case of SHTF, as they were in a very stable location, and had very low delta-v requirements, allowing them to land more cargo. Ok, Bellona probably make more sense for this....

[ChrisSpace]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

The Bellonians were something like 60-100 people, too few to survive in the long term. Before the Apocolyspe, they made monoliths on Phobo-Deimos to store everything they knew, in the case of SHTF, as they were in a very stable location, and had very low delta-v requirements, allowing them to land more cargo. Ok, Bellona probably make more sense for this....

No, in this scenario Phobos/Deimos actually make more suitable locations as they are less likely too be destroyed by whatever they thought would wipe out the life on Mars.

Also, something interesting happened in my last US2 simulation: I made a non-deserty planet in Venus' position habitable. Specifically, here's what I did:

1. Open up the solar system simulation

2. Bring a new Earth into the simulation

3. Place this Earth into a 0.8AU circular orbit around the sun (I think that's were Venus was going to be IIRC)

4. Halve the surface pressure

5. Remove 90% of the CO2 in the atmosphere so there's only 39ppm left

6. Wait 100 years to see how everything stabilizes

So after 100 years of waiting what I found was that the global temperature stabilizes at 47 degrees Celsius, or about 22 degrees above Earth's. And this is on a planet with Earth's land-to-water ratio. Obviously humans would want to stick to the poles, but I don't see why the local life couldn't adapt to the temperature increase and develop ecosystems similar to Earth's (although there would be less large animals due to easier overheating), including intelligent life.

If you're wondering how the above is possible ... I have no idea.

Edit: Also, I think I know a way around the 'Luna needs to be ----ing massive in order to work' problem. You see, the retention capability of a planet or moon is determined not by mass, but by escape velocity. So Luna can stay relatively un-massive, but more compact so it's gravitational well is 'deeper'. This solution has the added bonus of increasing the surface gravity to nearly Earthlike levels.

Edited January 18, 2016 by ChrisSpace

[fredinno]

2 hours ago, ChrisSpace said:

No, in this scenario Phobos/Deimos actually make more suitable locations as they are less likely too be destroyed by whatever they thought would wipe out the life on Mars.

Also, something interesting happened in my last US2 simulation: I made a non-deserty planet in Venus' position habitable. Specifically, here's what I did:

1. Open up the solar system simulation

2. Bring a new Earth into the simulation

3. Place this Earth into a 0.8AU circular orbit around the sun (I think that's were Venus was going to be IIRC)

4. Halve the surface pressure

5. Remove 90% of the CO2 in the atmosphere so there's only 39ppm left

6. Wait 100 years to see how everything stabilizes

So after 100 years of waiting what I found was that the global temperature stabilizes at 47 degrees Celsius, or about 22 degrees above Earth's. And this is on a planet with Earth's land-to-water ratio. Obviously humans would want to stick to the poles, but I don't see why the local life couldn't adapt to the temperature increase and develop ecosystems similar to Earth's (although there would be less large animals due to easier overheating), including intelligent life.

If you're wondering how the above is possible ... I have no idea.

Edit: Also, I think I know a way around the 'Luna needs to be ----ing massive in order to work' problem. You see, the retention capability of a planet or moon is determined not by mass, but by escape velocity. So Luna can stay relatively un-massive, but more compact so it's gravitational well is 'deeper'. This solution has the added bonus of increasing the surface gravity to nearly Earthlike levels.

The Venus thing is pretty much impossible- I doubt CO2 levels could stay at 39 ppm for very long, since a fully active planet would have animals breathing it out, along with non-biological processes. It would definitely be artificial. Not to mention things like CH4, which is far more potent than CO2.

 

A more dense Luna might work- where the Mantle and crust of the 'Earth' gets taken off into a new Earth, and the core forms Luna, but water and iron are unstable over long periods of time.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_planet 

Since the core is 33 percent of the Earth's Mass, https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Earths-mass-is-contained-in-its-iron-core a Luna like that would be pretty enormous, much larger than Mars.

 

It's probably simpler just to increase the mass of Luna, without trying to go into underhanded tactics. I know you don't like it, but neither do I, TBH.

[Spaceception]

4 hours ago, fredinno said:

The Venus thing is pretty much impossible- I doubt CO2 levels could stay at 39 ppm for very long, since a fully active planet would have animals breathing it out, along with non-biological processes. It would definitely be artificial. Not to mention things like CH4, which is far more potent than CO2.

 

A more dense Luna might work- where the Mantle and crust of the 'Earth' gets taken off into a new Earth, and the core forms Luna, but water and iron are unstable over long periods of time.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_planet 

Since the core is 33 percent of the Earth's Mass, https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Earths-mass-is-contained-in-its-iron-core a Luna like that would be pretty enormous, much larger than Mars.

 

It's probably simpler just to increase the mass of Luna, without trying to go into underhanded tactics. I know you don't like it, but neither do I, TBH.

So what do think about my moon ideas for you you and silver? (It's 5 reply's above yours)

Edited January 18, 2016 by Spaceception

[silversliver]

Ok one thing at time.

• About the intelligent octopus there's another problem: skeleton. Actual octopus don't have any and you need at least an hydrodynamic skeleton to survive on land otherwise even little gravity will crush you.  BUT it's not written anywhere that you can only have a civilization on land, maybe under the ocean....
• About the simulations with US2. The problem with this is that the program needs a large amount of variables to produce simulations, something that we're lacking.
• About the other moons of Spaceception; they're good but Mustafar needs to be further and less instable, I think that the solar system is meant to be stable to at least a few hundred years.

@fredinno

@Spaceception

Edited January 18, 2016 by silversliver

[Spaceception]

30 minutes ago, silversliver said:

About the other moons of Spaceception; they're good but Mustafar needs to be further and less instable, I think that the solar system is meant to be stable to at least a few hundred years.

OK. But since it's just within the planets Roche limit, wouldn't last for at least a couple million years from present day to destruction?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Spaceception

[ChrisSpace]

15 hours ago, fredinno said:

The Venus thing is pretty much impossible- I doubt CO2 levels could stay at 39 ppm for very long, since a fully active planet would have animals breathing it out, along with non-biological processes. It would definitely be artificial. Not to mention things like CH4, which is far more potent than CO2.

Okay, so with that in mind I redid the simulation, changing the CO2 concentration to 100ppm instead of 39ppm (for comparison, during the recent ice ages it was around 150-180ppm). I also moved the orbit out from 0.8AU further out, and here is what I found:

With an orbit of 0.90AU: 41 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.89AU: 45 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.88AU: 49 degrees average temperature

[Spaceception]

19 hours ago, ChrisSpace said:

Okay, so with that in mind I redid the simulation, changing the CO2 concentration to 100ppm instead of 39ppm (for comparison, during the recent ice ages it was around 150-180ppm). I also moved the orbit out from 0.8AU further out, and here is what I found:

With an orbit of 0.90AU: 41 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.89AU: 45 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.88AU: 49 degrees average temperature

 Crisplance

I have a moon idea:

Anemoi :

.14 Earths mass

This is the outermost moon around the Ice giant, with a highly tilted orbit (34 degree tilt) and a thin atm (.7 atm), the moon is comprised of mostly ice, making it's appearance dirty white, due to the many impact craters, and has a weak magnetic field about 13% of Earths, It also is known to have an underwater ocean, however, it's not known whether it has life for two reasons, the first is that there is a very low amount of organics on the moon, and the second, is that the crust is 50km thick and comprised of water/rock making drilling difficult. Finally, it has many active volcanoes, pumping large amounts of Carbon dioxide/Methane making the moon -159 c.

.4g

What do you think?

Edited January 19, 2016 by Spaceception

[silversliver]

21 hours ago, Spaceception said:

OK. But since it's just within the planets Roche limit, wouldn't last for at least a couple million years from present day to destruction?

The Roche limit is not a strict limit. It depends on composition. IT could be a moon made of compacted gravel and in this case would be destroyed even over the limit, or a moon made of high-density materials that could survive even on the inner part of the limit.

18 hours ago, Spaceception said:

 Crisplance

I have a moon idea:

Anemoi :

.14 Earths mass

This is the outermost moon around the Ice giant, with a highly tilted orbit (34 degree tilt) and a thin atm (.7 atm), the moon is comprised of mostly ice, making it's appearance dirty white, due to the many impact craters, and has a weak magnetic field about 13% of Earths, It also is known to have an underwater ocean, however, it's not know whether it has life for two reasons, the first is that there is a very low amount of organics on the moon, and the second, is that the crust is 50km thick and comprised of water/rock making drilling difficult. Finally, it has many active volcanoes, pumping large amounts of Carbon dioxide/Methane making the moon -159 c.

.4g

What do you think?

Seems good.

[Spaceception]

2 minutes ago, silversliver said:

The Roche limit is not a strict limit. It depends on composition. IT could be a moon made of compacted gravel and in this case would be destroyed even over the limit, or a moon made of high-density materials that could survive even on the inner part of the limit.

Seems good.

Well... It's not made of loose rock, and seeing as the moon would be made mostly of Silicates, Iron, and Metal, it should survive for a pretty good amount of time just inside of the Roche limit. I updated it regardless.

Thanks

[fredinno]

On 1/19/2016 at 5:23 PM, ChrisSpace said:

Okay, so with that in mind I redid the simulation, changing the CO2 concentration to 100ppm instead of 39ppm (for comparison, during the recent ice ages it was around 150-180ppm). I also moved the orbit out from 0.8AU further out, and here is what I found:

With an orbit of 0.90AU: 41 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.89AU: 45 degrees average temperature

With an orbit of 0.88AU: 49 degrees average temperature

I like the idea- lets keep Venus at 0.85 AU, which seems to be the max. distance from Earth that would allow Venus to be, near the hottest stable temperature (Earth has a 30 *C margin to its average temperature, for reference). That would be one crazy rainforest planet, but could quickly get out of control due to the increased water vapor. I would actually think it would be far closer, more like 0.90 AU as a baseline, since Venus would be nothing like Earth in the ice ages- and would produce more CO2 overall, not less. https://sites.google.com/site/thepaleoceneeocenethermalmaxim/2-paleocene-climate/why-earth-s-climate-is-different-today-1/ice-ages-and-the-role-of-co2

At the end of the day, I don't think Venus would end up in a stable orbit -Earth would probably screw it over pretty bad. Kind of gives a perspective on how close Earth is to the edge of the habilitable zone.

 

Don't worry, everyone, 'll be responding to the rest tommorow.

 

11 hours ago, Spaceception said:

Well... It's not made of loose rock, and seeing as the moon would be made mostly of Silicates, Iron, and Metal, it should survive for a pretty good amount of time just inside of the Roche limit. I updated it regardless.

Thanks

Surprisingly, Phobos may already be in the Roche limit.http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/10113/how-fast-does-roche-limit-disintegration-proceed

[Spaceception]

7 hours ago, fredinno said:

Surprisingly, Phobos may already be in the Roche limit.http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/10113/how-fast-does-roche-limit-disintegration-proceed

I thought it was going to enter in a couple million years, does thins mean we'll get martian rings sooner? Because that would be cool.

[ChrisSpace]

21 hours ago, fredinno said:

I like the idea- lets keep Venus at 0.85 AU, which seems to be the max. distance from Earth that would allow Venus to be, near the hottest stable temperature (Earth has a 30 *C margin to its average temperature, for reference). That would be one crazy rainforest planet, but could quickly get out of control due to the increased water vapor. I would actually think it would be far closer, more like 0.90 AU as a baseline, since Venus would be nothing like Earth in the ice ages- and would produce more CO2 overall, not less. https://sites.google.com/site/thepaleoceneeocenethermalmaxim/2-paleocene-climate/why-earth-s-climate-is-different-today-1/ice-ages-and-the-role-of-co2

At the end of the day, I don't think Venus would end up in a stable orbit -Earth would probably screw it over pretty bad. Kind of gives a perspective on how close Earth is to the edge of the habilitable zone.

Yeah, It was just an idea.

[fredinno]

7 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

Yeah, It was just an idea.

I'm going to make Persephone more like the ninth planet proposed recently:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine

Can I make Persephone 10 Earth Masses now?

[Spaceception]

Just now, fredinno said:

I'm going to make Persephone more like the ninth planet proposed recently:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine

Can I make Persephone 10 Earth Masses now?

Rep to you if I had any left, Also, aside from it's mass/orbit, it's actually very similar to what the scientists found

[fredinno]

17 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

Rep to you if I had any left, Also, aside from it's mass/orbit, it's actually very similar to what the scientists found

Yeah. Do the scientists know about the inclination? I have numbers for eccentricity, though. And some have suggested it would lack planets due to being slung out, which would be a major problem.

[ChrisSpace]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

I'm going to make Persephone more like the ninth planet proposed recently:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine

Wait, there's a serious chance there's a ninth planet IRL? I already read about the Kuiper Cliff, but this is new to me.

Just wondering, if such an object is found, would it qualify as a planet?

[fredinno]

34 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

Wait, there's a serious chance there's a ninth planet IRL? I already read about the Kuiper Cliff, but this is new to me.

Just wondering, if such an object is found, would it qualify as a planet?

By the current definition, it would not have cleared its neiborhood, due to orbiting so slowly, no matter its size, so no.

[Spaceception]

9 hours ago, fredinno said:

Yeah. Do the scientists know about the inclination? I have numbers for eccentricity, though. And some have suggested it would lack planets due to being slung out, which would be a major problem.

I have no idea.