What is this 1.1 stuff about?

[Matuchkin]

So I hear a lot of stuff about ksp 1.1, and the benefits that will come of it.

I want to get something straight:

1: How much will it decrease the lagginess of the game? What does that depend on?

2: What mods will be unusable with Unity 5? Any specifics?

3: More things to say about 1.1? Say them on this page.

[Hary R]

on thing is sure:

 

47 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

What mods will be unusable with Unity 5

Most of them. we don't know yet to what extend the change in the core code of the game will affects mods but it will break many thing. I'm not expecting any of the plugin mod to work, and i'm not sur about part mod either.

[Matuchkin]

22 hours ago, Hary R said:

on thing is sure:

 

Most of them. we don't know yet to what extend the change in the core code of the game will affects mods but it will break many thing. I'm not expecting any of the plugin mod to work, and i'm not sur about part mod either.

 

Not only will I have to wait more than a year for RO to update, but I will have to download it for another hour, testing and retesting. Am I the only person here who's dreading the update and scared out of my wits?

[Tfin]

4 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

Not only will I have to wait more than a year for RO to update, but I will have to download it for another hour, testing and retesting. Am I the only person here who's dreading the update and scared out of my wits?

Most mods need to update for every version. This one may make those updates take longer, because everything has been rewritten.

You should make a copy of your KSP directory now and play from that, so you can keep playing while building up a modded 1.1 install. Yes, you do this even if you normally use the Steam install, because there are no checks in place; it's just like a normal install and can be anywhere on your system.

 

[nosirrbro]

22 hours ago, Matuchkin said:

 

Not only will I have to wait more than a year for RO to update, but I will have to download it for another hour, testing and retesting. Am I the only person here who's dreading the update and scared out of my wits?

Haha!

Unlike you other people, I have accustomed myself to this inevitable doom by limiting my modcounts for the past... Month? In preperation of this. In hindsight, I probably started a bit early, and still have a ways to go, but at least now I won't be too heartbroken to play a vanilla save.

[CAKE99]

22 hours ago, Matuchkin said:

 

Not only will I have to wait more than a year for RO to update, but I will have to download it for another hour, testing and retesting. Am I the only person here who's dreading the update and scared out of my wits?

Yeah, I'm not going to update for a month or so so I can wait for the mods 

[RA3236]

1. Performance hit or increase isn't actually known yet, other than a few words from the decs about it being good. A stable 64bit version should come out, which will increase it even further.

2. As stated before, plugin mods (those with a .dll file) will be destroyed, part mods might actually work depending on the circumstances.

[p1t1o]

4 hours ago, nosirrbro said:

Haha!

Unlike you other people, I have accustomed myself to this inevitable doom by limiting my modcounts for the past... Month? In preperation of this. In hindsight, I probably started a bit early, and still have a ways to go, but at least now I won't be too heartbroken to play a vanilla save.

Are you kidding, I'm on KSP hiatus probably until after I've grown bored of XCOM2 (and I'm not even going to play that until the DLCs are all out), so, I'm thinking maybe by next Christmas? 

I'm figuring thats a safe enough amount of time to assume that 1.1 will be out, plus a couple of assumed hotfixes, plus plenty of times for the mods to cycle through.

I'm hoping that this way I will not have to live through another "Should I get back into KSP? Ooh a big update? I'll wait till thats done!" period. If 1.1 comes with stable 64bit, thats it for me, I'll consider KSP complete and dive back into it for a couple of years like I did at v.0.23

 

Here's looking forward to it!

PS: if the above comment seems bitter, I'm not

[Deddly]

3 hours ago, RA3236 said:

1. Performance hit or increase isn't actually known yet, other than a few words from the decs about it being good. A stable 64bit version should come out, which will increase it even further.

I concur that we have not been told anything specific apart from that it does run faster, that to at least a limited extent the physics can now be calculated on more than one core, but we shouldn't expect too much.

Are you sure about 64bit increasing performance? Everything I've read says 64bit allows you to use more memory to run the game (=more mods) but has no effect on performance.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Deddly

[soulsource]

3 hours ago, RA3236 said:

A stable 64bit version should come out, which will increase it even further.

While x86_64 offers additional registers that should have a positive effect on performance, it also has a slightly bigger address space, slightly increasing the chance of cache misses, what has a negative effect on performance for memory-heavy applications. In addition 64 bit programs have a larger pointer data type (as we say in Austrian: Nanonanet), leading to significantly increased memory usage, both in cache and in main memory, again increasing the number of cache misses (as less variables fit into the cache) and causing higher memory bandwidth usage.

What I'm trying to say is that 64bit can eventually lead to increased performance, but more likely it will show slightly worse performance. The only way to know would nevertheless be to benchmark the same application built for both, x86_64 and i686.

The main benefit of a 64bit Windows build of KSP will be the ability to access larger amounts of memory, enhancing the game's stability and allowing the installation of more mods.

[DrMarlboro]

As far as performance increase, It's safe to assume a 5-25% performance increase, since this is the average we've seen on other games that made the switch although most those didnt have the same level of physics. Meaning, if you currently get 10 FPS at high part counts, at best you will get 12-13 FPS. The big thing here is Unity 5 and hopefully 64bit, not really higher performance. 

And we already know this will break an  incredibly large number of mods. It's not a guess or a secret, it just will. It will most definitely break any wheel mod.

Either way, I'm really looking forward to 1.1. 

[Matuchkin]

11 hours ago, nosirrbro said:

Haha!

Unlike you other people, I have accustomed myself to this inevitable doom by limiting my modcounts for the past... Month? In preperation of this. In hindsight, I probably started a bit early, and still have a ways to go, but at least now I won't be too heartbroken to play a vanilla save.

The main problem is the shame coming from dumping realism and finding yourself in the kerbin system.

[nosirrbro]

1 hour ago, Matuchkin said:

The main problem is the shame coming from dumping realism and finding yourself in the kerbin system.

Ehh, I don't really care if I have to lose a little realism, as long as I can now build the giant craft, stations and bases that I have always wanted but have never been able to!

And, why shame? Do you feel like people look down to you if you don't play R:O? You can still feel good about the fact you know wayyy more about orbital mechanics than 99% of the population of earth!

[Matuchkin]

1 hour ago, nosirrbro said:

And, why shame? Do you feel like people look down to you if you don't play R:O? You can still feel good about the fact you know wayyy more about orbital mechanics than 99% of the population of earth!

Well, I know. I just don't feel that comfortable playing in an extremely simple solar system.

The first thing that got me to get RO: http://imgur.com/gallery/ckadxCa

[Archgeek]

1: In places -- The editor (VAB/SPH) will be less of a butt, as it will no longer be several scenes fighting each other, and horrifying WhackStrocities won't grind the editor to a crawl either.  Sadly, due to all the co-dependence of things in an in-flight vessel, we won't see much gain for single-vessel part count, but having several large ships near each other will stop being a problem, as those can be easilly parallelized.  They will start to fight with each other as you get more vessels (and thus threads) than cores, though.  (Note that even a kerbal on EVA is a vessel with one part.) Otherwise soulsource blatantly has the right of it.

2: Almost all of them.  Some parts might work, as might things like KAC and Chatterer, but I'd expect almost every one to be broken by the release.  I'd also expect more than half of them to be fixed before I even get home from work to download the update.  Modders tend to be amusingly fast with these things if real life doesn't get in the way.

3: 1.1 will improve a lot of things, often in hidden ways.  1.1.1 will fix a lot of things 1.1 might've broken.  1.1.2 will kick butt.

[BloodDusk]

I would wait and see, as all you have to do is see how quickly people got off the x64 hype train, believing it would be the silver bullet to kill all werewolves. It wasn't. Unity 5, x64 again, multithreaded physics and other features brought on by Unity 5 may not solve any problem KSP has currently.

All one could hope is that nothing breaks too badly.

[nosirrbro]

5 hours ago, Matuchkin said:

Well, I know. I just don't feel that comfortable playing in an extremely simple solar system.

The first thing that got me to get RO: http://imgur.com/gallery/ckadxCa

Simple? A tiny bit irrealistic, sure, but it's main purpose is a quality of life so certain functions like getting to orbit or de-orbiting don't take too long, and all the parts have been balanced where everything just provides less delta V than a similar device would, which makes up for it. That image is entirely pointless, as KSP doesn't use rockets with normal amounts of delta V levels. Sure, getting to duna takes less delta V than LEO, but a KSP Saturn V would have 1/10th the delta V and would go to the Mun which needs 1/10th the delta V than the Moon to get to (The numbers are alot different due to how things scale but since the Kerbol system is 1/10th the size of the Solar system I'm just going to use it anyway) I'll put it in a reverse direction, if the real world used the rockets adjusted for KSP then a ship capable of getting to duna wouldn't even get to LEO, because they are adjusted for a small solar system. It makes no difference other than seeing the curve of planets from lower and making things not take as long.

[tsotha]

The answer to you questions is probably unknowable even by Squad, at this point.

I'm not planning to delete my 1.0.5 directory until my must-have mods are working again.

[Kerbart]

• It will take less than 48 hrs to see the first forum post that the game is now BROKEN and has been DESTROYED by Squad. Perhaps even shorter; place your bets!
• I doubt it will take more than a week for those who think that 64 bit will solve their mod problem to discover that the old problem (not enough addressable memory) simply has been replaced by a new problem (not enough physical memory).
• I wish the aero/heat/gravity/structural/rendering model of 0.18/.20/.25/.90/1.0/1.0.1/1.0.2/1.0.3/1.0.4/1.0.5 was still here, it was much better. We will hit all permutations of these before the first SLS is launched.
• Complaints that those lazy ### developers of [your favorite mod] should publish an updated version will appear about 0.5 µs after Squad has announced the download is available.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, tsotha said:

I'm not planning to delete my 1.0.5 directory until my must-have mods are working again.

I never delete them.  I still have .90 sitting around.

[Curveball Anders]

10 hours ago, tsotha said:

The answer to you questions is probably unknowable even by Squad, at this point.

I'm not planning to delete my 1.0.5 directory until my must-have mods are working again.

Similar here.

Except that I'll play both 1.0.5 and 1.1 until I've finished my outstanding stuff in 1.0.5.

But since my installs are very small (1.5G) I'll most likely keep it until I migrate to a new computer/hdd, just like the other earlier installs I still have on my disk.

 

[FreeThinker]

As a mod developer of one of the most complex mods for KSP, I foresee a lot of problems. Not only because KSP 1.1 will break a lot of mods , but also after they have been fixed. The 64 bit version will open a new frontier as player will no longer be limited by memory restriction. Therefore there will be no more restraint of limiting the amount of mods loaded which can cause incompatibilities. Already the biggest problems I face are interactions with other mods that cause all kinds of unexpected behavior, bugs and crashes. After 1.1, I expect these problems to increase exponentially.

[BloodDusk]

5 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

As a mod developer of one of the most complex mods for KSP, I foresee a lot of problems. Not only because KSP 1.1 will break a lot of mods , but also after they have been fixed. The 64 bit version will open a new frontier as player will no longer be limited by memory restriction. Therefore there will be no more restraint of limiting the amount of mods loaded which can cause incompatibilities. Already the biggest problems I face are interactions with other mods that cause all kinds of unexpected behavior, bugs and crashes. After 1.1, I expect these problems to increase exponentially.

Well, then it comes the ultimate question:

Is KSP stable now solely because the memory cap exists?

There's also the thing that going x64 could actually make the game slower instead of increasing its performance. Higher precision numbers means more complex math, therefore, more time and processing is necessary to do calculations.

[FreeThinker]

13 hours ago, Kerbart said:

• It will take less than 48 hrs to see the first forum post that the game is now BROKEN and has been DESTROYED by Squad. Perhaps even shorter; place your bets!
• I doubt it will take more than a week for those who think that 64 bit will solve their mod problem to discover that the old problem (not enough addressable memory) simply has been replaced by a new problem (not enough physical memory).
• I wish the aero/heat/gravity/structural/rendering model of 0.18/.20/.25/.90/1.0/1.0.1/1.0.2/1.0.3/1.0.4/1.0.5 was still here, it was much better. We will hit all permutations of these before the first SLS is launched.
• Complaints that those lazy ### developers of [your favorite mod] should publish an updated version will appear about 0.5 µs after Squad has announced the download is available.

Well , it would realy help if SQUAD would help mod developers for a changes because in the past, they just left the Mod developers like me in the dark. Every version update, made changes to the Library which mod developers depend on to create all the magic for their extension. First of, the KSP library is badly documented and exiting library functionality can suddenly disappear, behave differently or become unreliable. Now all of this could be mitigated if they would take a second to properly communicate, but they don't. Now developing mods for KSP is challenging by itself but fixing problems at previously worked fine is hard and frustrating. As a result, many mod developers will simply quit and the mod will be abandoned of if lucky, continued much later. In the mean time, players suffer and in the long run, SQUAD itself.

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Glaran K'erman]

13 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

As a mod developer of one of the most complex mods for KSP, I foresee a lot of problems. Not only because KSP 1.1 will break a lot of mods , but also after they have been fixed. The 64 bit version will open a new frontier as player will no longer be limited by memory restriction. Therefore there will be no more restraint of limiting the amount of mods loaded which can cause incompatibilities. Already the biggest problems I face are interactions with other mods that cause all kinds of unexpected behavior, bugs and crashes. After 1.1, I expect these problems to increase exponentially.

Not a mod developer so can't speak to your last comment, but to the above I agree a lot of compatibility issues will come up. Not only do I expect, but fully support modders to start more blatantly listing mods they will not provide support or compatibility with. Integration and wide ranging compatibility are great for mods but with how long mod lists could get in 1.1 I just don't see how it's reasonable to expect it.